Author Topic: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?  (Read 3182 times)

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Offline Joy-filled

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We're really struggling here.  Our sweet girl takes ages and ages to fall asleep so her A times are often incredibly long.  She really dislikes ssh-pat and it is not effective at all so the routine is as soon as she shows signs of tiredness  I swaddle and put in the crib with a pacifier (recently started pacifier as were desperate for help).  This typically happens around 45-50 min A time.  5% of the time she will fall asleep but only after I've gone back in several times to put the pacifier back in, usually around 20 minutes.  If that just isn't working, though and she's getting OT then I'll eventually rock in the chair.  She will then fall asleep pretty quickly and I'll try to put her down right away/drowsy so she falls asleep on her own.  She will then either immediately wake up or wake up a couple of minutes later and need to be soothed.  So I'll rock again but this time rock her until I think she's in a deep sleep before I transfer to crib.  This will take another 15-45 minutes at times.  Occasionally she will then sleep in the crib but often she will then wake up again.  I then rock for remainder of nap or put her in a wrap as by this point my DS is quite tired of being ignored and I need to tend him or some house duties.

She will then typically only nap for 30-45 minutes.  So EAS ends up being a 1.5-2 hour cycle and A times end up being 45 minutes up to 1 hr 45 at times as she just won't settle  :-\.  Occasionally she will have a long nap but it's rare.  She used to in the first few weeks but they are getting more and more rare.  However, yesterday I put the pacifier back in her mouth when she woke while I was carrying her in the wrap and she fell asleep for another sleep cycle.  I did this again when going for a walk in the stroller.  That's when I clued in that she isn't waking up because she's hungry, she's waking up because she's OT.  Add to that, she is typically awake for 2.5-3.5 hours in the evening and simply will not settle for the night.  The only thing that makes her stop crying is nursing even though she's just doing it for comfort, not for food most of the time.  She will fall in and out of sleep during that period of time but instantly wakes if I try to put in the pacifier or put her in her crib.  Eventually DH will take her on the couch and sleep with her as we are do tired and desperate for her to go to sleep.

What to do?  Stop trying to teach independent sleep and just APOP naps so A times are not so long, making naps short since she's still so young? When I do APOP she falls asleep WAY faster.  If she's in the wrap/sling or stroller she'll fall asleep in 5-10 minutes.

"Typical EAS":
WU 7:30
E 7:30
S 8:30-9:15 (45) - usually in crib
E 9:15
S 10:45-11:30 (45) - sometimes in crib, sometimes have to give up and rock or put in wrap/sling
E 11:30
S 1:15-1:45 (30) - sometimes in crib, sometimes have to give up and rock or put in wrap/sling
E 1:45
S 3:00-4:30 (1.5)- sometimes in crib, sometimes have to give up and rock or put in wrap/sling or walk in stroller
E 4:30
S 5:30-6:15 - in wrap/sling while we eat supper as won't sleep in crib
E 6:15 - 9:15 (won't settle to sleep)
S 9:15-1:00 (4) - usually on couch with DH
E 1:00
S 1:30-4:00 (2.5) - usually in crib and goes down easily
E 4:00
S 4:45-5:45(1) - usually in crib, sometimes on couch, often has a hard time going down
E 5:45
S 6:45-7:30 (45) - usually in crib, almost always has a very difficult time going down
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 19:33:53 pm by Joy-filled »
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Offline lily_layne

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 02:25:17 am »
Since she is so young, I would just APOP most naps. I wouldn't worry too much about IS yet and I would aim for only one a day in the bed (or none if that doesn't work out). Do you have a swing? It might help with keeping her asleep after you've rocked her to sleep. It sounds like she likes to cluster feed in the evening. Could you doze with her in bed while she cluster feeds? There is a wonder week around 5-6 weeks so that could be part of the short naps.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline Joy-filled

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 14:51:26 pm »
When you suggest APOP do you mean just to fall asleep, or APOP for the whole nap.  My 2 year old is really struggling with the very little attention I am able to give him so I'd rather keep trying to APOP and then transfer to crib once she's in a deep sleep.  We recently borrowed a swing but she hasn't liked it and just cries.  She does cluster feed but unfortunately I am such a light sleeper I can't doze at the same time.
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Offline lily_layne

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 22:29:14 pm »
When you suggest APOP do you mean just to fall asleep, or APOP for the whole nap.
I think whatever works for you. What worked really well for both DS and DD was to get them asleep however possible and then put them in the swing. If they stirred a bit when PD I would jiggle the swing or swing it hard. DD always needed it on the highest speed to stay asleep.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline Joy-filled

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 13:27:17 pm »
Well I had DS go to daycare and APOPed every nap yesterday.  She consistently woke after 45 min despite rocking, car or in the wrap. I was able to eventually resettle but sometimes ittook 30 min.  She'd then sleep another 30-45 in my arms.  It did allow for more of a 3 hr EASY but still way too much A time in the day.  I think her evening cluster feed is more due to OTness.  EWs are now starting to (only sleeping 45 in early morn).  I don't know what to do....
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Offline lily_layne

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 18:36:04 pm »
Well I had DS go to daycare
Are you able to do this more often just to give yourself a bit of a break? My DD is going to daycare right now and I appreciate having the time with DS. DD also likes it because of the physical activity and time with her friends. Being stuck at home on a cold winter day while mom is paying attention to her brother doesn't make for a happy 2 year old!

(((hugs))) I'm sorry that things are tough.

I saw you had a post asking about reflux. Have you ever tried BioGaia probiotic drops? I find they really help reduce acid and spitting up. DS had a lot of that at 6 weeks but it starting getting less the last 2 weeks (around 10 weeks).

At around 6 weeks DS started getting hard to settle/resettle/stay asleep in my arms - he would scream wildly and be tough to calm down. My mom (who is amazing with babies) says that past 6 weeks most babies are getting too social and don't sleep or settle as well in arms as they want your company. After she said that, I switched to settling DS in the bassinet or swing. I hold him and sing a bit and then set him down. He always cries (sometimes quite hard) so I pat him or jiggle the bassinet until he's calm enough to take the soother. Sometimes I have to go in and replug a few times before he's in a deep sleep (less now that he's older). If he wakes early, I use the soother. Sometimes it takes a few replugs over 30 min (and sometimes it doesn't work at all). With him, I found that staying and patting makes things worse. Do you think something like that might work?

At 6 weeks, I found it worked best to PD at around 1h or 1h5 and depending on the nap he'd take 5-30 minutes to settle so some A times were on the long side.

Do you use white noise at all?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline Joy-filled

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 19:07:47 pm »
Thanks for the reply.  I was determined to not use this forum with DD as DS was such a poor sleeper regardless what I did and I was set on DD being an easy baby and a good sleeper.  Ha, ha.  Silly me, apparently it's not in my control  ;).  So, I haven't used white noise as I don't want her to be "dependent on it".  Am I being silly?

We've using Biogaia for a few weeks and plan to continue even though it hasn't seemed to make a difference yet.  And my DM recently offered to pay for DS to go to daycare 3 afternoons/week in lieu of her inability to take time off of work to help me out.  So gracious and generous.  DS loves it as it's just him and two other boys at my friend's home. But I guess as fun as it is, it's still not the same as last night DS woke up 3 times, crying saying "I need a hug" :'(.  Broke my heart.  He's never done that before. Just missing his mom I guess.

I was encouraged to hear that your DS doesn't always go down like a dream as I read your post and was rather envious of the incredible amounts he sleeps and the long naps you have to wake him from!  DD falls asleep WAY faster in my arms or the sling or the car seat than if I try to get her to sleep in her crib.  Lately I just haven't had it in me to do the crib battle that almost always ends in failure and she just ends up in my arms anyway.  But I just tried to rock a bit, PD in crib, and soothe with soother but she just wailed.  I gave up and put her in the sling and she is now instantly asleep.  Before this, she had a 1hr45 min A time followed by a 30 min nap which she wouldn't resettle from so eventually I just fed.  I don't know if I should just go with the cat naps and stop trying to resettle (since I'm wondering if she has reflux) or if I should keep trying for a 3 hr EASY and try for those long naps she's supposed to be getting. 
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Offline *Liz*

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 22:14:59 pm »
I know I am chatting to you elsewhere as well.... But I am jealous of Lily's posted routine as well  :-[ :-[. There are obvious reasons why mine is not posted anywhere  :P ;) ::) ::).

At six weeks one nap a day of independent sleep is enough to teach the basics and foundation. They are too young to fully be taught to sleep alone.... Even one of the BWer books says some babies will need shhh/ptttt all the way to a deep sleep until 3-4 months.... And obviously for a second child that is not possible.

I was actually reviewing my old posts on here this morning and learnt that DS1 was 20 weeks before I taught IS, somehow I thought it was much sooner, and similar with DD.

I can resettle some naps with my refluxers - but only upright in my arms - I basically get them to sleep then when they wake crying lift and soothe (they bring up wind or get hiccups etc) then put back down to finish the nap. With DD this took me about 10 mins then I would put her back and she would sleep another hour or so, my DS2 is far more fragile. I end up holding him for about 30 mins whilst he wakes every 2-5 mins and cries, then finally falls back to a deep sleep and I put him down.

Obviously I can't do that every nap. With DD I used to extend the nap that was at the same time as my toddlers sleep, so far I am doing the first nap with this little one.

Funny how all babies are different.... My DS settles poorly in the cot as he is too uncomfortable and is better on arms as he is upright.... Again I think this is a sign it is reflux rather than just a baby thing yk?

Offline Joy-filled

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 22:50:43 pm »
Thanks Liz, I appreciate your thoughts and insights  :).

Today has been tough.  She's either incredibly OT or we're dealing with reflux. All attempts to resettle after 15-45 minute naps have either failed or resulted in waking every 2-3 minutes crying for 20-25 minutes and then wailing until I feed.  She's now wet burping (refluxing?) over an hour after her feed too and sometimes waking up mid-nap screaming (even when upright in the sling with me). 

I tried another nap in the crib, PD at 45 min as she was yawning.  Initially she was happy but then cried so put in soother, tried bouncing the crib, tried rocking a bit, soother in and out, putting in the swing, etc.  After 45 min her A time had reached 1hr30 and she was hysterical so I gave up, put her in the sling and she fell asleep instantly. Perhaps I should give up on any naps in the crib?  Only trouble is that my back can only handle so much carrying her in the wrap and she has refused to sleep in the swing.  I also can't rock her for all naps since DS is now so upset that he had to come home from daycare this afternoon as he wouldn't stop crying, asking for me, refusing to eat his lunch and refusing his nap.  This is VERY atypical for him as he is usually super easygoing.  When he came home he just cried and cried at the thought of needing to go in his crib as he just wanted mommy.  I started bawling, it was so upsetting.  He ended up just sitting on the rocking chair with me while I rocked DD as I couldn't bear putting him in the crib hearing him wail.  I gave up on him having a nap today but he did sleep for 10 minutes while we rocked until DD woke crying.

I am so glad it's the weekend so DH can help APOP and I can spend some time with DS.  I thought DS was a poor sleeper as a baby but DD is starting to outdo him.  Should I stop trying any naps in the crib since it just ends up in long A times, compounding the overtiredness caused by short naps?
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Offline lily_layne

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 02:12:14 am »
But I am jealous of Lily's posted routine as well   .
I was reluctant to post it actually because I know for those of use who struggle with anxiety it can be hard to see other routines. One thing I have learned from having an LO that sleeps is that DD really is LSN (I couldn't make peace with it before) and I should have spent way less time forcing sleep on her. If it helps, our nights aren't great.

FWIW, DS sometimes does some intense screaming when PD. If he's really wild I pick him up and comfort him. Other times I just pat him until he takes the soother. I recall at 6 weeks he often spit up/puked when PD so then I would pick him up and get him drowsy (or asleep) and try again.

I would give white noise a shot. It's fairly easy to wean later on down the road. If anything, really loud white noise (louder than the crying) can help her calm down when she's worked up. Is she asleep when you put her in the swing? On our tough days when DS was twitching/fussing every 2-3 minutes when asleep, I found if I could get DS asleep in my arms then I could pop him in the swing after a few minutes and it would help him stay asleep through the twitches and jerks. I think being more upright helped too.

Have you ever seen/read The Happiest Baby on the Block? There are some great techniques in there.

I am sorry to hear A had a tough day. We've had a few days like that here too. It's hard isn't it?

It sounds like you are feeling really stressed about this, Char. Given that, I would do whatever your instincts tell you to do and whatever you can physically/emotionally handle. As a wise BWer posted on my thread about sleep anxiety, you can only offer sleep - it's up to your DD whether or not she'll sleep. There is some great advice on that thread. Let me know if you want a link. It was instrumental in helping me let go of anxiety.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2015, 00:31:29 am »
How are you and DD doing?
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Offline Joy-filled

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2015, 19:48:31 pm »
Thanks for checking in.  :-*  It was a long weekend so DH did pretty much all the APOPing while I caught up on the house and spent time with DS.  It was so wonderful of him!  I'm so blessed to have a truly fabulous DH.

It isn't the sleep that's causing stress, I'd say it's more the crying and not knowing what to do about it.  Is she OT?  Is she hungry?  Is she in pain?  Why is she still screaming and not sleeping? Is it reflux?  Is it gas from her latch being so poor? etc. And it's stressful not being able to spend time with DS as I have to soothe DD so much of the time.  But it will just be a season as this can't go on forever, right?  ;)

DD did manage to pull off one 2.5 hour nap this weekend which was really great!  Otherwise all short naps of 30-45 min.  However, I've been doing more reading elsewhere and it seems it's a common belief that short naps are very normal for newborns so I'm going to stop trying to extend her naps unless she's obviously tired and I happen to have the time.  So I'll probably end up doing more of an EASAS.  I guess we'll see how that goes.  Does Happiest Baby on the Block say short naps are normal?  I haven't read it.  Do you recommend it?
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Offline *Liz*

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2015, 21:29:29 pm »
Even Tracy said that catnapping was normal for some babies (and then went on to write a second book that had everyone trying to extend naps to ensure they were restful  ;) ::).... Although I once read that Tracy had been reluctant to write the second book as she knew people would follow in a prescriptive way that she never intended).

My DS1 catnapped from 6 weeks until 6 months. He outgrew it - I never extended naps as it just didn't work. My DD catnapped in the am, and then I extended her lunchtime nap (by cuddling and winding her again), and often a final pm catnap. I think my DS2 is going to do similar.

Meeting the needs of older children means lots of nap extension just doesn't work.

Does your DD like being in a sling?? It helps a lot of babies.

Offline Joy-filled

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 22:54:38 pm »
Very interesting, I didn't get the impression Tracy thought cat naps were okay despite reading both books. I wish she would've been more clear on that.  Oh well  :).

DD does love the sling.  She falls asleep within 5 min. If I try to get her to fall asleep on her own, her A time tends to be 1.5-2 hrs but if I APOP it will be 30 min to 1 hr 15.  I rarely try to get her to fall asleep for this reason and because I am weary of the crying it results in. 

However, I did try today as she had a rare totally calm spell.  Despite a 30 min nap and 40 min nap in the morn, she was fine and didn't show any signs of tiredness until 1hr A time.  So, I PD in crib swaddled and with a soother.  She stayed there generally happy with just the occasional need for me to go in and replug the soother for the next 35 min.  She then fell asleep briefly but woke and needed a replug.  This continued for the next 30 min (sleeping for 1-2 min, waking up) until she finally wasn't resettling with the replug so I had to rock. She was instantly asleep, thank goodness as her A time was now 2 hrs. She then had a broken 40 min nap.  I fed her and put her in the sling right away and she was asleep in minutes giving her an A time of only 30 min. 

I really don't know what A time to go for and if I should just APOP every nap by rocking or the sling (still won't sleep in swing but I keep trying).  Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 22:56:23 pm by Joy-filled »
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Offline lily_layne

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Re: Road to sleep is long and "rock"y and naps short. OT 6 week old?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 22:56:59 pm »
The Happiest Baby on the Block is fantastic! It's right up there with the first BW book for me. It doesn't talk a lot about schedules and routines (good for us mamas who worry too much). It focuses on why some babies cry so much and how to calm them. It will also ease your mind about APOP. It says do as much of it as needed - it's good for newborns. There is a book and a dvd. The dvd is a great starter as it's fairly short so easy to find time to watch it and it's easier to learn the 5s calming technique by watching. You can get it on amazon for about $15 (including shipping). I bought it when DD was about 7 weeks old and I still swear it was the best $15 I ever spent! If you have time, the book is also really worth a read and expands on what's on the dvd. You can also find clips of the 5s technique on You Tube. Once you get the hang of it, it's like magic for calming a frantic babe.

I understand what you mean about not knowing what to do about the crying. That's exactly how I felt with DD. It's so hard when you don't know why they are screaming. The Happiest Baby explains it so well that I think it will really help. Basically, it explains that most babies that cry like that aren't in great pain. They just have a touchy temperament and poor state control so they get worked up over every little thing.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014