2-1 short am/long pm experience please

[jessmum46]

Hi ladies,

I've tried to have a set nap short am, long pm thing going for DS for forever  never with a great deal of success but I think probably accumulated OT plus a bit of a night feed prop for a while did us no favours.  He's just been ill and slept a lot, so this morning for the first time in pretty much forever seemed rested and resisted going down early for his morning nap.   I have put my 'scientist' hat on (ha!) and decided to experiment a little with A times in an attempt to find something that works.  Overall I would prefer set(ish) nap times if I can though.

So.....my question is what sort of short am/long pm routine worked for you in the run-up to the 2-1 in terms of nap lengths/A times?   

Today we did
WU 7am
[3h05A]
Nap 10.05-10.35 capped (30 mins)
Watched him constantly for tired cues, eventually yawned twice and was asleep easily at 1.50 [3h15A] but slept only 55 mins

How much A time would you give before bed at this sort of age after a decent nap? 4h??  He managed 3h45 in a fairly ok mood after that nap so I'm guessing it was UT.

In an ideal world I would love a 6.30 WU (today was a one-off for sure!) but can cope with 6am.  Bedtime has been stuck at 6.30pm for ages but I would love to push that out as I don't think 12h is realistic here. 

[Martini~]

Hello dear BW:) I am so sorry you don't have responses yet:))).
Ok now seriously, I haven't been doing this routine at that age so have no btdt experience but firstly 30min nap is in my opinion too long if you want a longer pm nap; he is almost 9mo (God already!!!?) and if I am right J was doing one nap days here and there around 9/10mo?

Secondly when you think about reverse routine of longer/shorter nap LSN kids would do probably 1:30 and 15-30min for 12-13h day.

If you want a 30min nap in the morning I would go for a nap at 2:30 hopefully for 1:30 and than BT at 7/7:30. Or cap morning one to 15-20min and go for earlier nap but 2h so let's say 1:30/1:45. However I have big doubts about that routine as it's extremely difficult to go to one nap later. In my opinion they have a kind of a set nap time around 1-2pm and when you stop with morning nap at put them down at 12, they tend to sleep shortly. However it's also a routine which in my opinion let kiddos be on 2 naps routine longer which is good as they are less OT when transition to one nap.

Have you considered moving to longer/shorter nap routine now? That's the moment we switched the routine and F was going down at 11:15 for 1.5h and than a catnap. But he had 7am WU.

So... WDYT?

[jessmum46]

Honestly.....I don't know what to think any more . Feel like I've been getting it wrong with B for a long, long time now.  I'm less and less convinced he's LSN, in fact if I try to be objective about it - he's cranky and clingy a lot of the time and seems almost permanently shattered, we rarely get STTN without some sort of disturbance and although he often does long naps, he never seems refreshed by them - more like they are crash naps through exhaustion . He hasn't woken happy from naps for a long time now.  Gotta be OT right?

So my dilemma....I would love to do long am, short pm.  But where to even begin?  We have 5.30/6am starts almost every day though I can sometimes feed and get him back to sleep.  A bit stuck in early bedtime, early WU cycle.  I have no idea of A times really.  Sundays we have to be out 10-12ish, that's unavoidable.  Wednesday we have something on at 11am though that is potentially moveable. Other mornings no fixed commitments but most toddler groups etc are on at that time....and that's kind of my sanity with J.  Staying in winds us both up really .

What would you do?  There is at least DST in 4 weeks which automatically will shift us to 6.30/7am-7.30pm day.  But that's (at a guess) a 10/10.30am ish nap?  How would I deal with days where we need to be out in the morning?  Hope for a CN?  Or just a late and very OT nap?  With maybe a late CN after short A time?

[Jodes112]

Hiya katherine

We did short am long pm for a while it worked for us as she could nap on the walk to shops in AM and nap with ds in the pm. Its been a while but if i remember correctly for a while it looked like this -

Wu between 6.30/7

Nap 10-10.30

Nap 1-3

Bed 6.30/7pm

It took a while to realise that giving a full A time after a 30 minute nap was getting us no where so i shortened it down (first i think to 2hrs) and eventually we found that 2.5hrs A after a 30 min nap was perfect.

I think its just trial and error until you find the perfect. The 30 mins was literally a 'top up' nap to get her through to her main on which was the PM.
I remember as she was then getting older she needed more A time and could last a lot longer after a 30 min nap which was then when we transitioned to 1nap.

You could even try capping to 20 minutes rather than 30 but again shorten the A time to next nap so eg-

Wu 7am

Nap 10.15 to 10.35

Nap 1.15 to 3.15

7pm bed

I must admit we did long AM short PM for a little while & for the same reason you said (you tend to need to do stuff in the mornings) we switched. But long AM short PM i found so much easier as the whole day can be judged on that first nap whereas short AM you are guessing when to pd for second nap and when will they wake up ect!

Think you just need to trial and see how you get on!

Is you lo waking early most mornings? Id say if you getting a EWU to still a for a late(ish) AM nap so eg:

Wu 5.30
Nap 9.30-10

Nap 12.30/12.45-3

6.30/7pm bed.

What A times have you already tried between Short AM and PM nap? I would say it definatley needs to be slightly shorter than the usual A time.

Sorry long post. Got carried away ha

Ps a big sign for a needed A time push for DD has always been an EWU. Although lo is OT because of rubbish naps, it could be that he needs more A time overall, if that makes sense urgh its hard, right?!!

[Haribo2012]

Hi Hun, we did long am nap short pm nap as I just couldn't get short am right.
If I remember right we did nap 10-12 then CN 3.30pm for 30/40 mins...

We did have a phase of EW at that age that I used to apop to sleep if I could but did just have to shift A times really. On days when had to be out we either walked to whatever activity and napped in pram or went for a drive round to get a sleep on the way then another nap later.
Totally understand the going to groups it was my sanity lol x

[Martini~]

As I said we were switching at the same age as short/long was not working for us neither in the nursery nor at home during weekends. What I did, I went through recommended routines for that age and stopped capping naps, just that:).
We had 7am WU so I put him down at 10am and 2pm. At home he did a long nap in the morning but at nursery he did short so I pushed and pushed until we got a nice nap of 1.5h. I think around 9mo with 7am wakeup it was 11:15/11:30. And than I did catnap at 4 till 4:30. I couldn't do earlier as working but he was fine with it and didn't fuss at BT. This routine is working for us from 8/9mo and I just slightly push morning nap and cut out the catnap.
Regarding days you are out, the great think with long/short routine is that if first nap is short, you still can have a longer one in the afternoon:). And we did that when on holidays. He was sleeping soundly when in hotel/cruiser room at 10 for 1.5h but in a pram he was doing 45min. So on that days we did a longer pm nap and that's all.

What helped was that with all this capping you can have an impression that it's YOU who made him OT. I had this feeling that I am constantly doing something wrong. With uncapped naps and some more flexibility even if things went wrong, I knew I did what I could, I let him sleep - he just decided it's not the day. Much easier for me to cope iykwim. The same OT kid but mother in a better mood:).

[amayzie]

We did a short nap in the car on the way to something- it got shorter and shorter (as in i made it shorter and shorter) at times only 15-10 mintues long. Then we would do a long PM nap at about 1pm or so. Basically our aim was to maintain the PM nap at about 1pm and so cut the AM nap to allow this. I couldn't stand staying at home!!

[jessmum46]

Katy yes that was kind of my plan, we've lost our way a bit though   not helped by an early morning feed thing I have now decided to tackle....that's another thread though!  I still want short am, long pm to work but I guess I may have to accept it will be messy either way until we make it to one nap.

Marta how would you handle a day out when there is no opportunity for sleep between 10-12 though?  I get the idea of having a catnap and then longer sleep later on, but this would more likely be no sleep possible until 12pm just due to the situation we'd be in.

Ugh what a mess

[amayzie]

We would do our first nap before 10- and then nothing till 1pm... I would try to go to the gym at 9.30 or so i think... We essentially had a set PM nap and that worked quite well. You could have the AM nap earlier to deal with the early waking and then have the gap between the naps longer?

It will be messy till you get to one nap.. all transitions are a killer... but fingers crossed you can find something that works for you!

[jessmum46]

Thanks hun he was up at (yay) 5.05 this morning, 11h night (tried EBT due to bad naps yesterday - fail!!) and made it to 9am for nap.  Am allowing him 45 mins instead of 30 as this morning was super-early even by his usual low standards.....will try to get back to normal BT tonight and then hope for at least 5.30am tomorrow!!!

[Martini~]

What do you mean by no option to nap? Sling, pram anything...?

[jessmum46]

Ah sorry hun not trying to be awkward, it's just we're at church and it's either noisy with music or quiet to the point I can't be fighting with him to get him to sleep unless I go outside, which defeats the object of going in the first place iyswim?

Today he did

WU 5.05
Nap 9-9.45 capped
Nap 1-2.30 woke self, fairly happy
Going to try to get to usual 6.30 BT though it's a long day

Any thoughts??

[Martini~]

Totally get your point Katherine:) I was asking about a sling/pram not to make him sleep but to let him - if you get the difference. If he wants to sleep, he will. If he doesn't, he will go to sleep after 12 and that's it. I think one day a week will not OT him in a way he cannot cope.

Today was nice Hon, keeping fingers crossed for your morning feed!

[jessmum46]

Thank you xx

[jessmum46]

No morning feed . Unsettled night and up/fussing at 4.20 but went back around 4.50 and slept to 6.35am!!!

So I'm guessing he was OT from the long day but actually tired enough for once to sleep a longer night?  Now to find a happy medium.....will have a second shot today at getting BT to 7pm.  Am thinking maybe we need to aim for a 7-6/6.30 night and maybe a 30 mins and 1.5h nap?  So 13-13.5h total, I think that's reasonable for being in the 2-1?