8 month old early WU

[NinNic]

Hi there,

Usually I receive replies from Katie but she has not been online for a while now. Wondering if someone else could help?!

Below is what I have posted:

I have tried am nap at 10:30. For last 2 days she has woken at 5:30. Do you think I need to increase A time more? I added 10 mins today so first nap was at 10:40. Has been bit easier to get her to sleep around 4 hr A time in pm.

EASY for last 5 days:

Sat 21 Feb:
WU 6:30 picked up 6:39
S 10:30-12:02
S 16:05-16:30
BT 19:00
DF 22:25

Sun 22/2:
Woke her 6:32
S 10:27-11:58
S 16:05-16:30
BT 18:48
DF 22:16

Mon 23 Feb:
WU 6:30
Vaken 6:30 gått in 6:37-10:33 nattat 10:30
S 10:33-12:03
S 16:12-16:44
BT 19:00
DF 22:25

Tues 24:
WU 5:30 tried to get her to sleep didn't work picked up 6:23
S 10:29-12:01
S 16:05-16:37
BT 18:57
DF 22:24

Wed 25 Feb:
WU 5:30 picked up 6:06
S 10:39-11:55 (had to wake her as had appointment)
S 15:59-16:44 (let her sleep bit longer as didn't sleep full nap earlier)
BT 19:13

Was just thinking that it is probably worth mentioning that she woke at 6:30 out of the days I just posted yesterday when we had visitors at home so she probably got more tired and slept longer. The days when we didn't she started waking early again.

This morning she woke at around 5:30 again. I def feel it is time to increase A time more than first nap at 10:40. Today I put her to bed at 10:52. What do you think and how would EASY look like with naps and BF and solids? Also what time do I put pm nap and for how long?

Thanks in advance! 

For past few days she is still waking around 5. Ive put her down at 10:50 for first nap.

Just don't know why she is waking so early??

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there. Seeing as she is doing such good naps & going to sleep without a problem, I'm inclined to think that it might be a case of too much day sleep. Is she High or Low sleep needs? - how much sleep on an average does she seem to need in 24 hours? Because it just might be that she has had enough by 5.30 & is ready to start her day.

I think your A for the am nap is good since you are getting a 2 hour nap most days. You could of course try pushing it a bit later but I think you might also have to start capping it instead. Of course if you stick to the same A before pm, it might be a bit too early for you? Would you consider pushing the second A a bit instead?

[NinNic]

Hi, thanks for your quick reply!

She is having total of 2 hr day sleep. I think she is towards less sleep needs if comparing to other babies in same age and average sleep and A needs posted here on forum. At least this is the case since she was about 5 months. I know she can sleep 11-12 hr nights just doesn't seem to happen lately. She def does not want to go back to sleep when she wakes around 5-6 am, I have tried and she refuses.

She is on 1 1/2 hrss nap for am nap not 2 hrs, she has almost never slept 2 hrs for a nap. Should I really cap that nap? I was advised not to cap that nap but to keep it to a full nap of 1 1/2 hrs. I'm unsure of when to put her to sleep for both naps now. Yesterday, she slept at 11:12 after being awake from around 5-5:20 am and she was very tired and hard to get her to sleep, still she woke around 5 am this morning. Her A time for pm is around 4 hrs now as I was advised to cap A time to 4 hrs to be able to squeeze in CN of 25-30 mins. This advice I was given about 3-4 weeks back, maybe things are changing again?Her A time was longer before (about 4hrs 10 mins-4 hrs 30 mins). It was getting harder and harder to get her to sleep in her cot so was advised to use stroller, which I have done for a while. Should I increase that A time?

Does her A time in pm also affect early waking? Should I not keep CN in pm as she can't manage to go without a small nap in pm? If I have it later when can I have it to be able to put her to bed for 7 pm? Shall I cap it even more? She needs about 2 1/2 hr A time after 30 mins nap.

[newkidontheblock]

Should I really cap that nap?

I have no idea why I consistently saw it as 2 hours am nap:p No, completely agree that it is not necessary to cap it then. But you might have to push your first A out a bit. I'm following a similar routine with my DD for the past 2 months - long am, short pm. And I think one phase of the 2-1 transition is that you end up having a longer day in order to fit in two naps. I think that is the phase you are in now, which means a push in A times is what is in order. But this means that you would have to push BT back for a while.

Yesterday, she slept at 11:12 after being awake from around 5-5:20 am and she was very tired and hard to get her to sleep, still she woke around 5 am this morning.

This morning when she woke at 5 were you able to get her back to sleep? If she wakes at 5 and you are unable to put her back to sleep, start your day and put her down after the normal A time. You simply will need another proper nap in order to make it to bed. Otherwise she will be very over tired as the day progresses, and this OT buildup also can lead to early wakings. 10 - 10.5 hour nights are generally OT.

It was getting harder and harder to get her to sleep in her cot so was advised to use stroller, which I have done for a while. Should I increase that A time?

Push your first A out to begin with. The CN is getting harder, I agree. I've been APOPing it in the sling. But that's because it is on its way out.

Does her A time in pm also affect early waking?

The overall A of the day affects the night. If she is not tired enough/ has slept too much, then you can have EWs.

Should I not keep CN in pm as she can't manage to go without a small nap in pm?

No, of course keep pm nap. They can't go so long till bed yet. But if she starts waking at a normal time and your first nap can be pushed to 4.5 somewhat A, then maybe you would be able to drop to one nap, as from what you are saying she does remarkably long A times well.  I know of some people who instead shorten the pm nap to 15-20 minutes. It doesn't work with my baby though.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your quick reply!:)

Would you be able to post an example of EASY with push in A times?

I didn't try to get her back to sleep this morning, when I turn on the light she is all happy and smiling. If she would have been OT would she have been grumpy? I will try tomorrow morning to get her back to sleep.

If she wakes at 5 and I can't get her back to sleep should I keep her awake until 10:30 or push A time even more?

Can you also post example of EASY with first A time of 4.5 hrs with 1 nap only?

What does your EASY look like with your baby if she can't have the CN of 15-20 mins?

Usually DD has dinner around 16:50 so there is enough time for her to BF at 18:30, but I don't know how to do it if the CN ends up around dinner time, any advice?

[newkidontheblock]

Would you be able to post an example of EASY with push in A times?

Hun, its the same as what you are doing now, just everything pushed back a bit and ending later.

I didn't try to get her back to sleep this morning, when I turn on the light she is all happy and smiling. If she would have been OT would she have been grumpy? I will try tomorrow morning to get her back to sleep

You should definitely try to get her back down. Don't turn on the light at all. That would signal that it's time to wake up. After she has got most of her sleep done, she doesn't have that great a need to go back to sleep yk?

If she wakes at 5 and I can't get her back to sleep should I keep her awake until 10:30 or push A time even more?

You then put her down after your normal A of 4 hours. Actually, looking at the routines you posted, I see that you have been putting her down at 10.30 after 5.30 WU and she is doing a 1.5 hr nap anyway. Do you have a problem getting her down or keeping her asleep?

Can you also post example of EASY with first A time of 4.5 hrs with 1 nap only?

I don't think you're here just yet and no Btdt experience with me but I would think
Wu-7
Nap 1 - 11.30/12 for however long
BT 5.30/6

What does your EASY look like with your baby if she can't have the CN of 15-20 mins?

My baby cannot do BT without a 30 min CN. Anything less does not do. She can do long A times through the day but needs a short one before bed. Right now we are doing
WU-7
Nap 1- 11am -12.30/1
CN - 4 hrs 10 mins later
BT- 1.30hrs after CN

Usually DD has dinner around 16:50 so there is enough time for her to BF at 18:30, but I don't know how to do it if the CN ends up around dinner time, any advice?

Again, no btdt experience but couldn't you give her a snack when she woke from the CN and then there is a 2 hour gap before bed and nursing right?

[NinNic]

Thanks for info!

No, no problem getting her down or keeping her asleep, only one day when I put her down at 10:50 (been awake from around 5:20 am picked up 5:55) which was too late. She slept through nap but was hard to get her to sleep she was crying a lot, OT I think.

So today I had to wake her!! I woke her at 6:39. EASY of yesterday and today so far:

Sun 1 March:
WU around 5
S 10:23-11:56 decided to put her to bed a bit earlier as she seemed very tired
S 16:21-16:43 took 21 mins for her to fall asleep in pram
BT 19:05

Mon 2 March:

Woke her 6:39
S 11:03-will wake her 12:33

Do you think 4 hrs 20 mins is too long A time in morning? She seemed to be ok. Also I think she def should not have more than 20 mins max CN as when she sleeps 25 mins or more it seems to affect her EW, but I´m not sure?

Do you think I should keep CN 15-20 mins still even if we can start day at 7 am with A of around 4 hrs 20 mins in am and around 4 hrs in pm? Or push A time in pm also to around 4 hrs 30 mins and put to bed a bit earlier? Will this be too much A time increase in one go?

[newkidontheblock]

So today I had to wake her!! I woke her at 6:39.

Awesome:) And amazing about her settling for naps even when OT. *sigh* No such luck here

Do you think 4 hrs 20 mins is too long A time in morning? She seemed to be ok. Also I think she def should not have more than 20 mins max CN as when she sleeps 25 mins or more it seems to affect her EW, but I´m not sure?

It doesn't matter what I think. You need to listen to your baby and follow her cues. Ultimately, you know best. If you feel that you need to shorten the CN, try it out. You won't know until you do it. Regarding your A, it is great that she can do long A times & sleeps even when OT but it is very very possible that however well she handles it during the day, it is leading to these EWs at night.

Do you think I should keep CN 15-20 mins still even if we can start day at 7 am with A of around 4 hrs 20 mins in am and around 4 hrs in pm? Or push A time in pm also to around 4 hrs 30 mins and put to bed a bit earlier? Will this be too much A time increase in one go?

Again, you need to decide this based on your baby. I can only tell you that with mine, a 20 minute nap is useless. It does not relax her at all and she inevitably doesn't nurse well & has a tough time going to sleep.

Also, how much A can she do before bed? I don't think you should push to 1 nap cold turkey as she obviously is having trouble handling the A, hence the wakings. It could go horribly wrong and your baby might get too too too tired.

You can read up about the 2-1 transition here
10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first! (2-1 switch)
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps

This paragraph I felt was relevant to your situation. Just copy/pasting it
If your lo is a habitual early waker, then as well as shortening the am nap, you need to move it slightly later, perhaps by 20- 30 minutes. This will encourage your lo to start sleeping longer at night so they can’t “catch up” that lost night sleep so quickly. Bear in mind that when you start to change lo’s sleep patterns it will take at least a few days if not over a week for their body clock to readjust. Don’t expect to see results immediately, especially if you are dealing with an early waker!

[NinNic]

Thanks for all info. I'm just really confused at mo, maybe you are right she is OT and waking early in morning. She def needs CN in pm so I won't be changing that. Its A time in morning I'm confused about?! Am I pushing her too far?

If 10 hrs-10.5 hrs sleep is most likely due to OT, how do I differentiate OT with UT?

I can say that she has always been sensitive when OT or UT by being difficult to get to sleep or waking from it. At mo seems to be better, what can that indicate? That she is OT but shows it by EW instead of at nap time? This wasn't the case before, nap time was also problem.

I don't want her to be OT! Confused 

[newkidontheblock]

It's easy to tell if she is OT. Is she having trouble going to sleep, does she need to be resettled at 20 or 30 minutes. These are all tell tale signs

[katie80]

Also I think she def should not have more than 20 mins max CN as when she sleeps 25 mins or more it seems to affect her EW, but I´m not sure?

This is kind of what I was thinking as I read through.

I know we've talked about being unsure of OT/UT before.  A couple things to think about... I think you always wake her after 1.5hr in the morning, is that right? You could try letting her sleep for 2hr for a few days, keeping the CN the same and see what happens.  If she starts to consistently sleep longer at night, then that might be an answer.  How does she wake when she wakes in the early morning?  Is she quiet, chatty, rolling around or is she mad?  Have you ever tried just leaving her til your desired wake-up time of 6:30am? I definitely would try to not turn on the lights and get her up until that time. 

[NinNic]

It is not often she sleeps longer than 1.5 hrs.

I only go in to her when she is crying. She will chat a bit and cry and chat and cry a bit. I think she doesnt like to stay awake in dark for long as she is happy when I turn on the light.


This morning she woke around 6:20 which was better.

Katie, here is my last post:

Hope you had a nice trip. 

She is still waking early. I have increased A time to around 4 hrs 20 mins as around 4 hrs doesn't seem to work in morning, I mean she is still waking early. The day she was awake around 4 hrs 40 mins in morning she slept longer next morning and I had to wake her! Do you think I need to increase A time more than 4 hrs 20 mins?? She simply refuses to go back to sleep in the morning. As soon as I turn on the light she is smiling.

How do I continue with her early wakings with A time in morning because naturally she will be more tired when waking up early and sleeping around 10 hrs-10.5 hrs. I mean can I still push A time in morning from when I turn on lights?

Do I keep same A time in pm?

EASY for past 4 days:

Sun 1 March:
WU around 5-5:20 turned on lights 5:40
S 10:23-11:56
S 16:21-16:43
BT 19:05
DF 22:20

Mon 2 March:
Woke her 6:39
S 11:03-12:33
S 16:34-16:55
BT 18:52
DF 22:23

Tues 3 March:
WU 5:40 tried to get her back to sleep 5:45 did not work turned on light 6:10
S 10:25-11:36 (might have woken because of noise from refurbishment of elevator)
S 16:03-16:32
BT 18:56
DF 22:25

Wed 4 March:
WU 5:20 tried to get her back to sleep 5:40 didn't work turned on light 6:00
S 10:20-11:47
S 16:05-16:33
BT 18:53

[Lycheewaves]

Just jumping in to ask if you've considered dropping the dreamfeed, we did this at 8 months too and it helped a bit (we think, though we like you are grappling with awake times and early wakings) just as Tracy says to do it at this age as it can effect their sleep.

[katie80]

Honestly, I'm not sure what to say... A couple weeks ago, she seemed to be on that pattern of a long night then a short night and it seemed easier to predict... after doing three days of what we wanted, now she seems to be doing mostly short nights with a long one every now and then.

Do you feel like she's OT? What do you think would be the earliest she would go down? I'm wondering if it might be worth trying a 4hr A for a few days and letting her sleep as long as she wants in the morning and then doing your normal CN and seeing if it makes a difference. What do you think? I'm sorry I'm not more helpful.

[newkidontheblock]

I have increased A time to around 4 hrs 20 mins as around 4 hrs doesn't seem to work in morning, I mean she is still waking early. The day she was awake around 4 hrs 40 mins in morning she slept longer next morning and I had to wake her! Do you think I need to increase A time more than 4 hrs 20 mins?? She simply refuses to go back to sleep in the morning. As soon as I turn on the light she is smiling.

I'm pretty confused too. Just to clarify --- You said that 4 hours doesn't work and you had to push. Is this because she was having difficulty going to sleep or doing short naps?
And when you say that she is smiling after turning on the lights -- this is after trying to resettle her and it not working? Just wanted to share that we have had a few days of EWs, especially at this golden hour of 5.30/6, and it is always OT and we simply cannot resettle, which is odd since I hear that OT EWs should be easy to settle.

Im just going to go in the opposite direction and say -- do you think that her A times are just too much for her to handle and so even after good naps, she is ultimately OT, leading to these EWs? Just thinking out loud really. What do you ladies think?

[NinNic]

Hi ladies,

Thanks for all your replies! 

Do you think that the DF can have anything to do with EW? Lycheewaves, how exactly did it help to cut out DF? I'm going to do it soon, LO has had problems with her bowels when introducing solids so have been taking it easy so therefore still DF.

Hmmm, maybe it is my fault for increasing A time more than 4 hrs. She is def more tired today also bit grumpy. Grumpiness think cause she is in her WW right now. Today she woke after 1 hr 15 mins of am nap. I will try 4 hrs A time in am tomorrow and see. Should I count 4 hrs A time from when she wakes or when I turn on lights? Should I still try to resettle until 6:30 even though she is just crying and crying? If I do that she will have been awake for around 1 hr and not sure if I should count that as A time or not?

I'm not too sure about earliest I can put her to bed. I will probably be able to do it after 4 hrs A time. Will try and see.

I find it so hard to know if she is OT as she goes to sleep fine when I put her down for am nap and she sleeps through nap usually, has been waking earlier from her nap today after 1 hr 15 mins. I do feel she looks more tired when she wakes early in morning compared to when she wakes normal time.

I increased 4 hrs A time because she was till waking early, which I think might be a mistake. No, she was sleeping 1.5 hr nap in am and not having difficulties falling asleep. Yes smiling when turning on lights after trying to resettle. Hmm, not sure if I agree with it being easier to resettle when OT always.   

I think you might be right that she is OT, as I've tried to increase A time in am and it's simply not working.

Can I put her to sleep bit earlier in evening now that she might be OT? Can I let her sleep bit longer in morning past 6:30 if she does ever sleep past that now that she might be OT?

[katie80]

Do you think that the DF can have anything to do with EW? Lycheewaves, how exactly did it help to cut out DF? I'm going to do it soon, LO has had problems with her bowels when introducing solids so have been taking it easy so therefore still DF.

It can interfere with night sleep, yes, but I think in more of a general way (unsettledness at other times during the night), rather than EW... but, I could be wrong.  I kept it with all three of mine til 9/10mo.

Hmmm, maybe it is my fault for increasing A time more than 4 hrs. She is def more tired today also bit grumpy. Grumpiness think cause she is in her WW right now. Today she woke after 1 hr 15 mins of am nap. I will try 4 hrs A time in am tomorrow and see. Should I count 4 hrs A time from when she wakes or when I turn on lights? Should I still try to resettle until 6:30 even though she is just crying and crying? If I do that she will have been awake for around 1 hr and not sure if I should count that as A time or not?

I do think this sounds like OT, hon.  How about counting from half the time of the EW (so, if she's been up for an hr before you take her out, count it as 30min A)? I would then put her down at 4hr A and let her sleep for as long as needed.

Can I put her to sleep bit earlier in evening now that she might be OT? Can I let her sleep bit longer in morning past 6:30 if she does ever sleep past that now that she might be OT?

Yes, I'd let her sleep in in the morning.  For BT, I'd try to keep to no longer than a 13hr day.

And when you say that she is smiling after turning on the lights -- this is after trying to resettle her and it not working? Just wanted to share that we have had a few days of EWs, especially at this golden hour of 5.30/6, and it is always OT and we simply cannot resettle, which is odd since I hear that OT EWs should be easy to settle.

I don't think that OT EWs are easy to settle at all.  I think OT early NWs are easy to settle, but anything in the early morning is difficult because of all the night sleep they've already had.  I've only been able to resettle OT EWs with one of my three (the one who is EASILY APd ). That being said, I did/do try to keep them in the dark, attempting to resettle or just sitting until a reasonable wake-up as otherwise there is no reason they 'should' keep sleeping, yk.

[NinNic]

When you say sleep for as long as needed for am nap, what is the max max? She has slept for over 2 hrs 20 mins now, still sleeping. 

When you count 13 hr days is that from when she actually wakes or when I turn on the lights?

How long do you think I should keep her sleeping until she wakes up? Until she has started sleeping until 6:30 in morning?

Thanks so much for your advice!! 

[newkidontheblock]

When you say sleep for as long as needed for am nap, what is the max max? She has slept for over 2 hrs 20 mins now, still sleeping

Hun, this to me sounds like a major catch up nap, which reinforces my belief that she is very tired

When you count 13 hr days is that from when she actually wakes or when I turn on the lights?

I count it from the moment she wakes because my DD seems to count it that way. Previously though, I used to stick to a fixed WU time and count from the moment I got her up

How long do you think I should keep her sleeping until she wakes up?

Normally I would say not more then 2.5, especially since you have an issue with EWs but do you want to just see how long she does?

[katie80]

Wow, what a great catch up. I think for today, it's fine, but for everyday as you're still going for 2 naps, I would limit the first one to 2hr. Hope you're on your way to a more settled/consistent routine.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your replies ladies. 

I think I may have pushed her way too much and feel so stupid.  How do I know if this is the case? When I look back on EASY I see a pattern of her waking early in morning quite a lot and pm nap has been difficult for her to sleep through when it was longer than a CN. Is she having way too long A times for her age?

Below EASY for yesterday and so far today, which is not going so well so far. Is the 4 hr A time too much for her in am do you think?? She was rubbing her eyes so much and crying as she was tired so had to put her down after less than 3 hr A time  this morning, but then she woke after 40 mins crying so much until picked her up at 11:55. Is this sign that she is very OT? She is also in her WW and worst period of WW right now. She is not herself right now, more babyish and distant.

Shall I put her to bed when she is showing she is very tired in morning even if after 3 hr A time?

If I can't get a full nap for am nap do I do loner pm nap even earlier than usual so she can fall asleep not too later for evening?

Sat:
Woke 5:23 tried getting her to sleep didn't work, turned on lights 5:57
S 9:52-12:12
S 15:57-16:28
BT 18:38
DF 22:19

Sun:
Woke 5:25 got her to sleep 6:05 slept until 7:18
S 10:11-10:50 can't get her back to sleep crying a lot! picked up 11:55

[newkidontheblock]

Can I ask, what are you basing her A time calculation on? Was she short napping until you pushed it to this time? It will help figure out what's going on

[katie80]

Hon, don't feel stupid. There have definitely been times in the last few months that she's needed the A time increase.  And she still does good naps on long A times, so it's not always that easy to see the OT. 

Shall I put her to bed when she is showing she is very tired in morning even if after 3 hr A time?

I don't think so... she's done longer for awhile now.  I'm sure she is looking more tired as she's caught up a little and not running on fumes, and the WW fussiness won't be helping that.  But, I do think you got an UT nap yesterday morning and that won't really help the situation.  I'd stick with 4hr A, butpho for 3.5 if you have to.

If I can't get a full nap for am nap do I do loner pm nap even earlier than usual so she can fall asleep not too later for evening?

Yes, you can bring the pm nap earlier and let her sleep longer there.

[NinNic]

newkidontheblock: We have been increasing A times gradually since Dec due to NW and EW in morning and problems with her falling asleep with pm nap for a long time.

Katie, yes I know, it´s just that sometimes you come to a stage where you don't know what is right A times anymore!  And I def don't want her to become OT as I´ve read here it's very important not to reach that stage. I hope we have not due to EW.

Ok, I will in that case keep 4 hr A time in am and also in pm and see if that helps with EW, do you agree?

I will also let her sleep to max 2 hr for am nap if she needs it. I have kept her pm nap to 25-30 mins, but maybe I should increase it a bit in order for her to not get OT throughout the day, what do you think?

EASY Mon (today):
WU 5:40 went in 6:10 tried to get her to sleep didn't work turned on lights 6:25
S 9:55-11:24 (counted half time as A from when she woke up until turned lights on like we said)
S 15:51-planning to let her sleep to 16:30

[katie80]

Katie, yes I know, it´s just that sometimes you come to a stage where you don't know what is right A times anymore!  And I def don't want her to become OT as I´ve read here it's very important not to reach that stage. I hope we have not due to EW.

Totally understand... it's about finding the right balance!

I would stick with the 2hr am nap and 30min pm (or let her go a full 40/45, if you'd like) for a start and then go from there.

[NinNic]

Just wanted to clarify what to do in am, you said I should try to put her to bed for am nap at 10:30 even if she woke after 6:30, should I still do that even if it is less than 4 hr A time? Today she slept 10:37 from being awake from 6:46, felt she was tired and didn't want to wait longer and she slept for 1 hr 37 mins. Yesterday she slept for 1 hr 15 mins after being awake for 4 hrs in am. Hmm, think it will be very rare for her to sleep 2 hr nap.

She has had NW on Mon at 5:05 managed to get her back to sleep at 6:10-6:55 and Tues at 3:53 managed to get her back to sleep 4:50-6:45. I'll wait and see what will happen in next few days or what do you suggest?

[katie80]

Just wanted to clarify what to do in am, you said I should try to put her to bed for am nap at 10:30 even if she woke after 6:30, should I still do that even if it is less than 4 hr A time? Today she slept 10:37 from being awake from 6:46, felt she was tired and didn't want to wait longer and she slept for 1 hr 37 mins. Yesterday she slept for 1 hr 15 mins after being awake for 4 hrs in am.

I'd be inclined to stick with this...

Shall I put her to bed when she is showing she is very tired in morning even if after 3 hr A time?

I don't think so... she's done longer for awhile now.  I'm sure she is looking more tired as she's caught up a little and not running on fumes, and the WW fussiness won't be helping that.  But, I do think you got an UT nap yesterday morning and that won't really help the situation.  I'd stick with 4hr A, butpho *but put down* for 3.5 if you have to.

However, you know your baby best.  We can only advise from across the internet based on what you describe to us.  The best I can say is to keep track of your EASYs and look for patterns and any effect on the NW/EW.  It's interesting she's still having the hr NW, it's just moved earlier.  It's ok if she doesn't always nap for 2hr, I would just refrain from waking her.  You can also help her catch up from OT by offering a longer pm nap or bringing BT earlier. 

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply! 

LO is waking bit later in morning now but still around 6 am. I have therefore decided to put her to bed a bit earlier in order to keep 12 hr days and for her not to get OT. Today I think I put her a but too early though. What do you think about putting her a bit earlier to bed when she wakes around 6 am?

I was thinking to keep WU 6 and BT around 18-18:30 so that it will change to WU 7 BT 19 when we change to summertime in less than 2 weeks, what do you think about this?

If I do WU 6 BT 19 where I do feed around 17:30 before BT, can I then also change DF to around 21:45-22:00 as that will change also to 1 hr later with summertime?

I have noticed that she is moving around and sometimes waking up around 21-22. Can this be due to OT? I hear her during the night also as I've written in EASY (not too sure she is fully awake, if she is she goes back to sleep again) can this also be due to OT?

Do you think it is ok to let her sleep earlier than 4 hr A time in pm or do you think it can start her waking at night from UT?

 I've posted last 4 days of EASY:

Thu 12 March:
WU 6:44
S 10:46-12:15
S 16:03-16:32
BT 19:19
DF 22:22
Heard her 5:22 and 5:45 if woken fell asleep again

Fri 13 March:
WU 6:20
S 10:25-12:12
S 16:14-16:40
BT 18:59
Woke 21:20 (might been because of noise) crying had to calm her fell asleep 21:50
BF 22:33
Heard her 1:30, 2:30 and 5:55  if woken fell asleep again

Sat 14 March:
WU 6:05 went in 6:32
S 9:54-10:50 happily awake could not get to sleep again
S 14:35-15:10 decided for an earlier nap as she didnt sleep long for am nap
BT cired a bit fell asleep 18:10 (put to bed earlier due to short am nap)
DF 22:14

Sun 15 March:
WU 6:05 went in 6:28
S 10:29 woke 11:00 talked a bit fell asleep 11:06 again-12:05
S 15:48-16:18
BT 18:30
DF 22:22
Heard her 4:20 and 5:20 if woke fell asleep again

Mon 16 March:
WU 5:50 went in 6:13
S 10:09-11:35
S 15:25-15:53
BT put to bed 17:45 cried and cried to 18:55  think put to bed a bit too early fell asleep 18:59

[newkidontheblock]

What do you think about putting her a bit earlier to bed when she wakes around 6 am?

That's a great idea. I always aim for a 12 hour day - - 12.5 max. I have even put E to bed at 5.30 sometimes. Does your DD tack on the lost day sleep on to her nights? Mine does that and so we even get 14 - 14.5 hour nights. Bad naps the day after as a result though.

I was thinking to keep WU 6 and BT around 18-18:30 so that it will change to WU 7 BT 19 when we change to summertime in less than 2 weeks, what do you think about this?

Sounds good. Honestly, since you are getting EWs, I would just get her up at that time and move on with the day and put her down early. And as you said, with DST, your day should normalize. Do whatever you need to to catch up on sleep right now. As soon she she gets over this OT, I feel the EWs will stop.

an I then also change DF to around 21:45-22:00 as that will change also to 1 hr later with summertime?

Tracy advises to do the DF between 10 & 11,so doing it at 10 should be fine You could try doing it a bit earlier & seeing if it disrupts/disturbs her sleep. I'm not too sure TBH as I once did it after 11 and she was restless all night long.

I have noticed that she is moving around and sometimes waking up around 21-22. Can this be due to OT? I hear her during the night also as I've written in EASY (not too sure she is fully awake, if she is she goes back to sleep again) can this also be due to OT?

For us, at least, wakings between BT & DF indicated OT. If she self settled, then not much but if she needed help, then I knew she hadn't gotten as much sleep as she needed during the day. Don't worry about all the sounds they make unless she is awake & crying for you. My DD used to make SO much noise. Even now she will moan & sometimes even cry for a few minutes but it is all in her sleep. It could be her just settling herself yk?

Do you think it is ok to let her sleep earlier than 4 hr A time in pm or do you think it can start her waking at night from UT?

I guess this is a time that worked to eliminate her NWs previously, right? If she is tired though, I would put her down as the OT is affecting you just as badly. I'll let Katie clear this one up though.

Regarding the days you have posted
Thurs and Friday  - Seem like a perfect days (except for the EW). In fact, it is similar to what my DD is doing at the moment except for the long A before bed on the 12th. Do you think it might be too long?

Do you count WU from eyes open or from when you get her up? Could be that she was better rested after a night withiut wakings and only an hour was enough? I wouldnt reduce A after a 1 hour nap though. But the night seemed great.

You days actually seem fine TBH. As do your nights. I don't see exactly what the problem is, hun. It might just be that she is naturally an early waker and it would be best to just go with it?

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply!

She never sleeps 14 hrs nights max I would say 12.5 hrs but that rarely happens otherwise 12 hrs.

If she wakes and stays in bed longer than 30 mins Katie suggested to count half time awake in bed before lights are on as A time and that is what I have been trying to follow unless I feel she is not tired enough I let her stay awake until she is tired.

Yes I also think the same, that she was not tired enough after 4 hrs A time after sleeping good nights sleep. I'm thinking maybe she is not OT anymore and that is the reason she is now waking earlier in morning and might be time to increase A a bit? What do you think?

Only posted EASY so that you could see and maybe make it easier to answer my questions. 

For past 2 days (posted Monday previously, which was first day) DD has been difficult to get to sleep for BT. Today she slept for 1 hr only for am nap, but fell asleep easier for BT. I've posted EASY below. Could this be sign of UT? What do you suggest I do?

Mon- difficult to fall asleep for BT as posted previously

Tues 17 March:
WU 5:00 turned on lights 6:02
S 9:32-11:03
S 14:58-15:24
BT put to bed 17:37 cried, fell asleep 18:16 (usually she is ok to fall asleep on her own and normally takes 10-25 mins to fall asleep)
DF 22:20

Wed 18 March:
WU 5:20 turned on lights 5:47
S 9:54-10:53
S 15:07-15:36
BT 17:55 fell asleep fine

I think its probably best to not go under 4 hrs A time in pm, what do you think?

[NinNic]

Just want to add today, which was similar to yesterday. I do feel that it may be time to increase A time. Please advice on what to do next. Also if I should increase A time should I do am/pm or both and how much? Is it maybe best to go in once she wakes up instead of letting her stay in bed for a while without lights to find out exactly what A time she will need. Just find it hard to know when she has been lying in her bed for a while.

Also want to add that she seems to be fine being awake for around 4hrs A time after her around 1 hr nap in am.

Thanks! 

Here is today's EASY:

Thu 19 March:
Heard her at 3:18 think she fell asleep around 3:26
WU 5:20 turned on lights 6:05
S 9:50 woke 10:21 feel asleep again 10:35 woke again 11:12
S 15:30-15:55
BT 18:22

[NinNic]

Hi there,

Haven't got a reply yet so will just post what has happened since my last post to maybe clarify and give more info.

Fri 20 March:
WU 4:30 was happy to stay in bed (usually she doesn't like to if she is OT I have noticed, started getting bored so turned on lights 5:52
S 9:58-11:46 woke her to be able to put her to bed not too late tonight  (was not sure when to put her to bed also when she had been lying so long in bed with lights off, decided not to do less than 4 hrs after turning lights on. Slept full nap, which she hasn't for 2 days.)

I just feel even more that she is not OT but UT right now.

Please advice. 

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there. Sorry that it took me a while to get back to you. Shenanigans with my DD too.

I would say that you should go with your gut because ultimately you are the one there with her and you are the best judge of the situation. If you feel she needs a push in A times, go for it. I'm also confused about the NWs -- she wakes at 4 but is happy to stay in bed awake for 2 hours? That is extremely nice of her:) Let me know if things improve after pushing A times.

[NinNic]

Sorry to hear that! What problems are you having?

Should I start by increasing by 15 mins in am only first to see and leave pm as is?

[newkidontheblock]

Oh, who knows. We've just gone off the rails with crazy amounts of Separation Anxiety.

Yes, you could start with the am nap. If you find that it makes a difference, you could do it for the pm one too. Go slow though. You don't want her to get OT again. I think you'll have to go for a short/long nap routine though

[NinNic]

Seperation anxiety at night too?

Do you mean long am nap and short pm nap like we have now?

[newkidontheblock]

Oh, forgot that you are already doing that. Sorry hun. Are you capping the CN? You might need to not do that if you're increasing A.

Yes, we are having SA only at bedtime. Lol. Never had issues with bedtime with this girl, so cannot wait for this regression to end

[katie80]

Wow, 4:30am, that's rough!! (((Hugs))) And she just was happy to be in her crib that whole time?! I do think it's important to not go in and turn on the lights til your desired wake up time, otherwise you will likely reinforce the EW.

I agree with Fleur, you know her best and if you feel that an A increase is what she needs then I would do it. It's interesting that she slept through the nap today. I wonder how long she would've gone if you didn't have to wake her.

[NinNic]

Hey back again 

So I increased A time in am to 4 hrs 15-20 mins, pm I still kept to around 4 hrs A time, with 25 mins CN in pm. She has been teething so has been fussy and more tired. She is better now and is getting harder to get her to bed for BT. It takes her longer to fall asleep and as soon as we take her to her bedroom for BT routine she starts crying, which she usually doesn't. Days are getting too long now so I´m wondering what I should do. She sleeps about 1.5 hrs in am, which is fine.

Should I increase her A time in pm to 4 hrs 15-20 mins also and what about CN make it even shorter?

How can our EASY look like now with 12 hr day instead of 13 hr?

Today day looked like this:
WU around 6 am
S 10:19-11:47
S 15:56-16:21
BT 19:15 took her 30 mins to fall asleep usually takes shorter, also put her to bed a bit later as she was not tired enough, this is almost 3 hrs A time after 25 mins CN

Please advice!

[newkidontheblock]

Hmm, I have a few questions, if you don't mind, hun. Is she going down easily for her naps with the new increased A? How many days have you been doing this new time? Is she airways protesting at BT or was that a one-off? Is she having night wakings or sleeping through till morning? Is she crying out/waking soon after BT? Typically, what is the length of your nights?

I do feel that perhaps she is OT at BT. I don't think it could be UT after a 25 minute CN and BT 3 hours later. Why not put her down earlier for bed? If she wakes around 6, then 6/6.30 should be fine. As I've mentioned before, my DD has been on a long am, short pm routine since 7 months. Her A times are 4.15 too but she can do only a much shorter A before bed after such a short CN. I know this routine works because now that I have tackled the prop issue, she is back to sleeping independently and she sleeps through the night. If your DD is doing similar, then you're on the right track. But if she is crying at BT, you can try it a bit earlier.

[NinNic]

No problem 

Yes she is going down easily for am nap. Pm nap has beeb problem for long time, Katie advised to do CN in pram, which is only way that works for her to sleep.

Have been doing new time for 7 days.

She has been protesting few times, but in this 7 day period she has also been teething so more tired than usual for 2-3days.

She is sleeping until morning. Was waking earlier until increased A in am she now sleeps longer. When she gets to bed around 19 instead of earlier when she has a 13 hr day she doesnt sleep as long nights. When she has 12 hr days she sleeps longer, which I feel is better for her.

No she is not waking crying after BT.

Nights sleep is about 11 hrs depending how long days are. If they are more than 13 hrs like yesterday she woke earlier this morning BT 19:15 woke 5:30. Feel its not enough sleep.

I know she should be OT, but I did not feel that yesterday at all. She might not be tired enough for her A time in pm? In morning I can see when she is tired easier, she is not tired like that in pm before CN. Of course its always easier for her to fall asleep in pram even though she might not be that tired.

Have tried putting her down earlier and it doesnt work, I have tried so many times, when she doesnt fall asleep she gets annoyed cries and have to calm her and just end up sleeping even later, so I dont think that is the solution.

[newkidontheblock]

Katie advised to do CN in pram, which is only way that works for her to sleep.

APOP away, hun! I'm doing CN in the sling too:p

I think you are on the right track.

She is sleeping until morning. Was waking earlier until increased A in am she now sleeps longer. When she gets to bed around 19 instead of earlier when she has a 13 hr day she doesnt sleep as long nights. When she has 12 hr days she sleeps longer, which I feel is better for her.

Oh, I definitely agree. I think this was mentioned previously also. Keep your days to 12 -12.5 hours if possible. Any lost day sleep can be tacked on to night as long as she is not OT by BT.

f they are more than 13 hrs like yesterday she woke earlier this morning BT 19:15 woke 5:30. Feel its not enough sleep.

I feel that this is an OT waking.  Confirms your reasoning as well:)

I have only one suggestion. Don't cap the pm nap at 25 minutes. Keep it to 30 and observe what happens. Can we try that?

[NinNic]

So no increase in A time for pm?

This will still mean we will have 13 hr days. No way to cut days shorter?

So you dont recommend cutting CN shorter to get her to bed earlier to keep 12 hr days?

[katie80]

I think you could try both options, really, and see what works best for you. I don't think she needs an increase in pm A time if she's still falling asleep easily for the CN (that will only likely make the day longer). You can do as Fleur suggested and keep the 30min CN and no longer than 13hr day (as that makes her do a short night). Or, you can cut the CN to 15/20min and aim for a 12hr day (this would be the last step before pushing to one nap). Some LOs don't do well with such a small CN, some do fine. You won't know what works best for her until you try. Ideally, what do you think would be best for her and you?

[newkidontheblock]

So you dont recommend cutting CN shorter to get her to bed earlier to keep 12 hr days?

The reasoning behind doing a catnap is that they are fresh enough to handle the evening and go to bed reasonably rested. Too short a CN would be a bit pointless, no?

Ideally, what do you think would be best for her and you?

^^

[NinNic]

I just feel 12-12.5 hr days are best for her so that she sleeps 11.5-12 hrs so she doesnt get OT that easily.

Seems she is going through some seperation anxiety at BT so takes longer for her to fall asleep at mo.

Yes I know, guess I wont know until I try shorter CN. The other day she woke after 20 min CN. She still didnt fall asleep after 2.5 hrs A time but also some SA that evening.

Next step after pushing A times, do you remove CT and do early BT even if A time is only around 4.5 hrs?

Last night we decided to leave her door a bit open at BT as seemed she wanted to hear us in background as she is having some SA. She seemed calmer then. We havent done that before as when she was younger she was stimulated by light etc. What do you usually do and is it ok to leave door bit open and close it once she falls asleep?

Thanks for both your advice!

[katie80]

Next step after pushing A times, do you remove CT and do early BT even if A time is only around 4.5 hrs?

Yes.

As far as SA, I've done both WIWO and GW (Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)) when they've needed the extra help at BT. You can certainly leave the door open as well. I've never done so for fear of not being able to close it again, but most of those 'things' do pass once the SA subsides.