8 month old early WU

[NinNic]

Hi ladies,

Thanks for all your replies! 

Do you think that the DF can have anything to do with EW? Lycheewaves, how exactly did it help to cut out DF? I'm going to do it soon, LO has had problems with her bowels when introducing solids so have been taking it easy so therefore still DF.

Hmmm, maybe it is my fault for increasing A time more than 4 hrs. She is def more tired today also bit grumpy. Grumpiness think cause she is in her WW right now. Today she woke after 1 hr 15 mins of am nap. I will try 4 hrs A time in am tomorrow and see. Should I count 4 hrs A time from when she wakes or when I turn on lights? Should I still try to resettle until 6:30 even though she is just crying and crying? If I do that she will have been awake for around 1 hr and not sure if I should count that as A time or not?

I'm not too sure about earliest I can put her to bed. I will probably be able to do it after 4 hrs A time. Will try and see.

I find it so hard to know if she is OT as she goes to sleep fine when I put her down for am nap and she sleeps through nap usually, has been waking earlier from her nap today after 1 hr 15 mins. I do feel she looks more tired when she wakes early in morning compared to when she wakes normal time.

I increased 4 hrs A time because she was till waking early, which I think might be a mistake. No, she was sleeping 1.5 hr nap in am and not having difficulties falling asleep. Yes smiling when turning on lights after trying to resettle. Hmm, not sure if I agree with it being easier to resettle when OT always.   

I think you might be right that she is OT, as I've tried to increase A time in am and it's simply not working.

Can I put her to sleep bit earlier in evening now that she might be OT? Can I let her sleep bit longer in morning past 6:30 if she does ever sleep past that now that she might be OT?

[katie80]

Do you think that the DF can have anything to do with EW? Lycheewaves, how exactly did it help to cut out DF? I'm going to do it soon, LO has had problems with her bowels when introducing solids so have been taking it easy so therefore still DF.

It can interfere with night sleep, yes, but I think in more of a general way (unsettledness at other times during the night), rather than EW... but, I could be wrong.  I kept it with all three of mine til 9/10mo.

Hmmm, maybe it is my fault for increasing A time more than 4 hrs. She is def more tired today also bit grumpy. Grumpiness think cause she is in her WW right now. Today she woke after 1 hr 15 mins of am nap. I will try 4 hrs A time in am tomorrow and see. Should I count 4 hrs A time from when she wakes or when I turn on lights? Should I still try to resettle until 6:30 even though she is just crying and crying? If I do that she will have been awake for around 1 hr and not sure if I should count that as A time or not?

I do think this sounds like OT, hon.  How about counting from half the time of the EW (so, if she's been up for an hr before you take her out, count it as 30min A)? I would then put her down at 4hr A and let her sleep for as long as needed.

Can I put her to sleep bit earlier in evening now that she might be OT? Can I let her sleep bit longer in morning past 6:30 if she does ever sleep past that now that she might be OT?

Yes, I'd let her sleep in in the morning.  For BT, I'd try to keep to no longer than a 13hr day.

And when you say that she is smiling after turning on the lights -- this is after trying to resettle her and it not working? Just wanted to share that we have had a few days of EWs, especially at this golden hour of 5.30/6, and it is always OT and we simply cannot resettle, which is odd since I hear that OT EWs should be easy to settle.

I don't think that OT EWs are easy to settle at all.  I think OT early NWs are easy to settle, but anything in the early morning is difficult because of all the night sleep they've already had.  I've only been able to resettle OT EWs with one of my three (the one who is EASILY APd ). That being said, I did/do try to keep them in the dark, attempting to resettle or just sitting until a reasonable wake-up as otherwise there is no reason they 'should' keep sleeping, yk.

[NinNic]

When you say sleep for as long as needed for am nap, what is the max max? She has slept for over 2 hrs 20 mins now, still sleeping. 

When you count 13 hr days is that from when she actually wakes or when I turn on the lights?

How long do you think I should keep her sleeping until she wakes up? Until she has started sleeping until 6:30 in morning?

Thanks so much for your advice!! 

[newkidontheblock]

When you say sleep for as long as needed for am nap, what is the max max? She has slept for over 2 hrs 20 mins now, still sleeping

Hun, this to me sounds like a major catch up nap, which reinforces my belief that she is very tired

When you count 13 hr days is that from when she actually wakes or when I turn on the lights?

I count it from the moment she wakes because my DD seems to count it that way. Previously though, I used to stick to a fixed WU time and count from the moment I got her up

How long do you think I should keep her sleeping until she wakes up?

Normally I would say not more then 2.5, especially since you have an issue with EWs but do you want to just see how long she does?

[katie80]

Wow, what a great catch up. I think for today, it's fine, but for everyday as you're still going for 2 naps, I would limit the first one to 2hr. Hope you're on your way to a more settled/consistent routine.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your replies ladies. 

I think I may have pushed her way too much and feel so stupid.  How do I know if this is the case? When I look back on EASY I see a pattern of her waking early in morning quite a lot and pm nap has been difficult for her to sleep through when it was longer than a CN. Is she having way too long A times for her age?

Below EASY for yesterday and so far today, which is not going so well so far. Is the 4 hr A time too much for her in am do you think?? She was rubbing her eyes so much and crying as she was tired so had to put her down after less than 3 hr A time  this morning, but then she woke after 40 mins crying so much until picked her up at 11:55. Is this sign that she is very OT? She is also in her WW and worst period of WW right now. She is not herself right now, more babyish and distant.

Shall I put her to bed when she is showing she is very tired in morning even if after 3 hr A time?

If I can't get a full nap for am nap do I do loner pm nap even earlier than usual so she can fall asleep not too later for evening?

Sat:
Woke 5:23 tried getting her to sleep didn't work, turned on lights 5:57
S 9:52-12:12
S 15:57-16:28
BT 18:38
DF 22:19

Sun:
Woke 5:25 got her to sleep 6:05 slept until 7:18
S 10:11-10:50 can't get her back to sleep crying a lot! picked up 11:55

[newkidontheblock]

Can I ask, what are you basing her A time calculation on? Was she short napping until you pushed it to this time? It will help figure out what's going on

[katie80]

Hon, don't feel stupid. There have definitely been times in the last few months that she's needed the A time increase.  And she still does good naps on long A times, so it's not always that easy to see the OT. 

Shall I put her to bed when she is showing she is very tired in morning even if after 3 hr A time?

I don't think so... she's done longer for awhile now.  I'm sure she is looking more tired as she's caught up a little and not running on fumes, and the WW fussiness won't be helping that.  But, I do think you got an UT nap yesterday morning and that won't really help the situation.  I'd stick with 4hr A, butpho for 3.5 if you have to.

If I can't get a full nap for am nap do I do loner pm nap even earlier than usual so she can fall asleep not too later for evening?

Yes, you can bring the pm nap earlier and let her sleep longer there.

[NinNic]

newkidontheblock: We have been increasing A times gradually since Dec due to NW and EW in morning and problems with her falling asleep with pm nap for a long time.

Katie, yes I know, itīs just that sometimes you come to a stage where you don't know what is right A times anymore!  And I def don't want her to become OT as Iīve read here it's very important not to reach that stage. I hope we have not due to EW.

Ok, I will in that case keep 4 hr A time in am and also in pm and see if that helps with EW, do you agree?

I will also let her sleep to max 2 hr for am nap if she needs it. I have kept her pm nap to 25-30 mins, but maybe I should increase it a bit in order for her to not get OT throughout the day, what do you think?

EASY Mon (today):
WU 5:40 went in 6:10 tried to get her to sleep didn't work turned on lights 6:25
S 9:55-11:24 (counted half time as A from when she woke up until turned lights on like we said)
S 15:51-planning to let her sleep to 16:30

[katie80]

Katie, yes I know, itīs just that sometimes you come to a stage where you don't know what is right A times anymore!  And I def don't want her to become OT as Iīve read here it's very important not to reach that stage. I hope we have not due to EW.

Totally understand... it's about finding the right balance!

I would stick with the 2hr am nap and 30min pm (or let her go a full 40/45, if you'd like) for a start and then go from there.

[NinNic]

Just wanted to clarify what to do in am, you said I should try to put her to bed for am nap at 10:30 even if she woke after 6:30, should I still do that even if it is less than 4 hr A time? Today she slept 10:37 from being awake from 6:46, felt she was tired and didn't want to wait longer and she slept for 1 hr 37 mins. Yesterday she slept for 1 hr 15 mins after being awake for 4 hrs in am. Hmm, think it will be very rare for her to sleep 2 hr nap.

She has had NW on Mon at 5:05 managed to get her back to sleep at 6:10-6:55 and Tues at 3:53 managed to get her back to sleep 4:50-6:45. I'll wait and see what will happen in next few days or what do you suggest?

[katie80]

Just wanted to clarify what to do in am, you said I should try to put her to bed for am nap at 10:30 even if she woke after 6:30, should I still do that even if it is less than 4 hr A time? Today she slept 10:37 from being awake from 6:46, felt she was tired and didn't want to wait longer and she slept for 1 hr 37 mins. Yesterday she slept for 1 hr 15 mins after being awake for 4 hrs in am.

I'd be inclined to stick with this...

Shall I put her to bed when she is showing she is very tired in morning even if after 3 hr A time?

I don't think so... she's done longer for awhile now.  I'm sure she is looking more tired as she's caught up a little and not running on fumes, and the WW fussiness won't be helping that.  But, I do think you got an UT nap yesterday morning and that won't really help the situation.  I'd stick with 4hr A, butpho *but put down* for 3.5 if you have to.

However, you know your baby best.  We can only advise from across the internet based on what you describe to us.  The best I can say is to keep track of your EASYs and look for patterns and any effect on the NW/EW.  It's interesting she's still having the hr NW, it's just moved earlier.  It's ok if she doesn't always nap for 2hr, I would just refrain from waking her.  You can also help her catch up from OT by offering a longer pm nap or bringing BT earlier. 

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply! 

LO is waking bit later in morning now but still around 6 am. I have therefore decided to put her to bed a bit earlier in order to keep 12 hr days and for her not to get OT. Today I think I put her a but too early though. What do you think about putting her a bit earlier to bed when she wakes around 6 am?

I was thinking to keep WU 6 and BT around 18-18:30 so that it will change to WU 7 BT 19 when we change to summertime in less than 2 weeks, what do you think about this?

If I do WU 6 BT 19 where I do feed around 17:30 before BT, can I then also change DF to around 21:45-22:00 as that will change also to 1 hr later with summertime?

I have noticed that she is moving around and sometimes waking up around 21-22. Can this be due to OT? I hear her during the night also as I've written in EASY (not too sure she is fully awake, if she is she goes back to sleep again) can this also be due to OT?

Do you think it is ok to let her sleep earlier than 4 hr A time in pm or do you think it can start her waking at night from UT?

 I've posted last 4 days of EASY:

Thu 12 March:
WU 6:44
S 10:46-12:15
S 16:03-16:32
BT 19:19
DF 22:22
Heard her 5:22 and 5:45 if woken fell asleep again

Fri 13 March:
WU 6:20
S 10:25-12:12
S 16:14-16:40
BT 18:59
Woke 21:20 (might been because of noise) crying had to calm her fell asleep 21:50
BF 22:33
Heard her 1:30, 2:30 and 5:55  if woken fell asleep again

Sat 14 March:
WU 6:05 went in 6:32
S 9:54-10:50 happily awake could not get to sleep again
S 14:35-15:10 decided for an earlier nap as she didnt sleep long for am nap
BT cired a bit fell asleep 18:10 (put to bed earlier due to short am nap)
DF 22:14

Sun 15 March:
WU 6:05 went in 6:28
S 10:29 woke 11:00 talked a bit fell asleep 11:06 again-12:05
S 15:48-16:18
BT 18:30
DF 22:22
Heard her 4:20 and 5:20 if woke fell asleep again

Mon 16 March:
WU 5:50 went in 6:13
S 10:09-11:35
S 15:25-15:53
BT put to bed 17:45 cried and cried to 18:55  think put to bed a bit too early fell asleep 18:59

[newkidontheblock]

What do you think about putting her a bit earlier to bed when she wakes around 6 am?

That's a great idea. I always aim for a 12 hour day - - 12.5 max. I have even put E to bed at 5.30 sometimes. Does your DD tack on the lost day sleep on to her nights? Mine does that and so we even get 14 - 14.5 hour nights. Bad naps the day after as a result though.

I was thinking to keep WU 6 and BT around 18-18:30 so that it will change to WU 7 BT 19 when we change to summertime in less than 2 weeks, what do you think about this?

Sounds good. Honestly, since you are getting EWs, I would just get her up at that time and move on with the day and put her down early. And as you said, with DST, your day should normalize. Do whatever you need to to catch up on sleep right now. As soon she she gets over this OT, I feel the EWs will stop.

an I then also change DF to around 21:45-22:00 as that will change also to 1 hr later with summertime?

Tracy advises to do the DF between 10 & 11,so doing it at 10 should be fine You could try doing it a bit earlier & seeing if it disrupts/disturbs her sleep. I'm not too sure TBH as I once did it after 11 and she was restless all night long.

I have noticed that she is moving around and sometimes waking up around 21-22. Can this be due to OT? I hear her during the night also as I've written in EASY (not too sure she is fully awake, if she is she goes back to sleep again) can this also be due to OT?

For us, at least, wakings between BT & DF indicated OT. If she self settled, then not much but if she needed help, then I knew she hadn't gotten as much sleep as she needed during the day. Don't worry about all the sounds they make unless she is awake & crying for you. My DD used to make SO much noise. Even now she will moan & sometimes even cry for a few minutes but it is all in her sleep. It could be her just settling herself yk?

Do you think it is ok to let her sleep earlier than 4 hr A time in pm or do you think it can start her waking at night from UT?

I guess this is a time that worked to eliminate her NWs previously, right? If she is tired though, I would put her down as the OT is affecting you just as badly. I'll let Katie clear this one up though.

Regarding the days you have posted
Thurs and Friday  - Seem like a perfect days (except for the EW). In fact, it is similar to what my DD is doing at the moment except for the long A before bed on the 12th. Do you think it might be too long?

Do you count WU from eyes open or from when you get her up? Could be that she was better rested after a night withiut wakings and only an hour was enough? I wouldnt reduce A after a 1 hour nap though. But the night seemed great.

You days actually seem fine TBH. As do your nights. I don't see exactly what the problem is, hun. It might just be that she is naturally an early waker and it would be best to just go with it?

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply!

She never sleeps 14 hrs nights max I would say 12.5 hrs but that rarely happens otherwise 12 hrs.

If she wakes and stays in bed longer than 30 mins Katie suggested to count half time awake in bed before lights are on as A time and that is what I have been trying to follow unless I feel she is not tired enough I let her stay awake until she is tired.

Yes I also think the same, that she was not tired enough after 4 hrs A time after sleeping good nights sleep. I'm thinking maybe she is not OT anymore and that is the reason she is now waking earlier in morning and might be time to increase A a bit? What do you think?

Only posted EASY so that you could see and maybe make it easier to answer my questions. 

For past 2 days (posted Monday previously, which was first day) DD has been difficult to get to sleep for BT. Today she slept for 1 hr only for am nap, but fell asleep easier for BT. I've posted EASY below. Could this be sign of UT? What do you suggest I do?

Mon- difficult to fall asleep for BT as posted previously

Tues 17 March:
WU 5:00 turned on lights 6:02
S 9:32-11:03
S 14:58-15:24
BT put to bed 17:37 cried, fell asleep 18:16 (usually she is ok to fall asleep on her own and normally takes 10-25 mins to fall asleep)
DF 22:20

Wed 18 March:
WU 5:20 turned on lights 5:47
S 9:54-10:53
S 15:07-15:36
BT 17:55 fell asleep fine

I think its probably best to not go under 4 hrs A time in pm, what do you think?