5 month old...never napped well

[katie80]

Hi hon, sorry for my slow reply...

Do you agree with me that he seems UT? Hence the protest crying for the last 2 days and the smiling and cooing today instead of sleeping? I've tried putting him into the cot at 2hr 15 for 3 days now so was planning on trying 2hr 30 for 3 days now.

It's definitely possible it's UT... he seemed to settle quite well today at the 2h25m winddown.

Does it matter that I still feed to sleep at BT and NF? I think from what I have read on here the answer is that it is not a problem yet and ok to wait until older to start weaning from the BT and NF nursing to sleep?

It doesn't matter at NW at all... as long as you're feeding him at decent intervals during the night and it hasn't become a prop to get back to sleep. BT is a personal call. I think Tracy would've said to put him down awake at BT, just as you do for naps, but I will admit to feeding to sleep at bedtime with all three of mine at certain points (not while I was in the process of ST, however). If he knows the skill of independent sleep, it probably won't be a huge issue, but it can be one, so you just need to be aware of the decision you're making.

Also, wondering if you think I should try swaddling for naps as I know it can help touchy babies and reflux babies. We used to swaddle every night until 11 weeks when he literally wriggled amd wouldn't settle at BT until I unswaddled him and then slept brilliantly that night.

I would not swaddle anymore at this point. He's at the age where he would likely transition out of soon anyway, especially as he's rolling one way, so I would just not bother.

As for today, the settling looks really good. Did you try to resettle at all when he woke early? What happened with the 7am sleep? Did he fall asleep nursing and sleep for 45min after getting up at 6:10?

[sparklewings1984]

As for today, the settling looks really good. Did you try to resettle at all when he woke early? What happened with the 7am sleep? Did he fall asleep ,nursing and sleep for 45min after getting up at 6:10?

Hi Katie,
When he wakes early I have tried resettling for 10 mins each time but no luck.

Yesterday after he woke at 6.10am I didn't get him out of the cot until 6.30am, he was moaning and babbling but not crying. Then fed at 6.45am and he started to fall asleep. I took him off the boob,he cried for a couple of seconds and then just snuggled into me so I held him for a 45 min nap. I think maybe he wasn't wanting 6.10am to be his wake up and was treating it as NW?

I'll post today's easy later on but still haven't had more than a 30 min nap. I'm currently APOPing by cuddling him to sleep as he just had a 15 minute OT screaming meltdown.

[katie80]

I'm sure he is still tired when he wakes, as he's lacking on sleep a bit, but it is going to be hard to resettle him as it's not a true EW (he's had at least 11hr overnight if he's going to bed before 7pm), iyswim. I think that 45min nap on you and the resulting 2h40min A time gave you an OT nap and then he never really recovered. 

I have to say, and I want this to come across encouraging and supportive rather than critical... if you want to ST him and eventually get longer naps, you need to be consistent with it.  Letting him basically fall asleep nursing and then holding him for a nap or APOPing is going to ultimately make the process longer right now, because it's confusing for him.  I totally understand the difficulty of 30min naps and the resulting OT... my DS2 has done them for the majority of his life... from about 6 weeks to 6 months and then again from around 8-10mo. It's not fun!  You can, of course, APOP and do what you feel is necessary, but I think until you really give ST a consistent go (a good two weeks of settling all naps in the crib, except maybe one), you can't expect much out of it.  OT is part of the ST process and inevitable, but it will get better.  If you want to help out with the OT, you can APOP one nap per day, but it should be done in a manner that is not your current AP (so, in the stroller or car or wrap for example).  It's up to you, and I will try to support as best I can either way, but that's where the rubber meets the road, for lack of a better term.  Hope that makes sense.

[sparklewings1984]

Hi,

Don't worry, I'm looking for help and guidance which will need some criticism at times! Ok here is today's EASY with the NW from last night  (we had a REALLY good night, yay!):

E 12.30am
S 1am
E 4.30am
S 5.15am (I had to cuddle him for a while to get him to drowsy as he was quite awake when feeding )

WU 6.55am
E 7.15am
A 7.35am
E 8.45am top up   
A (2.40)
S 9.35am
Put into cot at 2hr 25 for wind down. Then he cried for about 8 mins, then calmed down wriggling and kicking off the cot for a couple of mins. Woke at 20 mins and cried for 10 seconds then went back to sleep for 5 mins more. Wouldn't resettle after 10 mins and thought seemed hungry.
A 10am
E 10.15am
A 10.30am
E 11.30am top up
A (1.45)
S 11.45am
Started falling asleep whilst walking around carrying so took him to cot.  Lay down very drowsy. Cried hard for 2 mins then stopped. Woke crying after 30 mins wouldn't resettle, started cooing at me so got up after 10 mins.
A 12.15pm
E 12.30pm solids
A
E 1.15pm
A (1.30)
S 1.45pm APOPed cuddling as he had a screaming meltdown beforehand. Crashed out on me,  woke crying at 1 hr but then went back to sleep.
E 4.25pm
A 4.45pm inc BT routine
E 6.45pm
S 7.15pm

I know the APOP was bad but he was going crazy screaming and scratching at himself and at me. He was so OT.

I just don't know what is going wrong. He doesn't really show any sleepy signs in the morning and is settling quite well at the 2hr 25 wind down but then the short naps just kill the rest of the day with OT. This was only the second day with 2hr 25 wind down so I'll persevere with another couple of days. 

[sparklewings1984]

We had a terrible night! And today is going badly too so I've kind of given up for the rest of today.

We were up a lot at night, 10pm feed, 12.45am feed, 2am crying in pain  (teeth?), 4.20am feed, 6am resettle and then up at 7am.

This morning he went down at 2hr 25 again but seemed tired beforehand, maybe OT from all the NWs? He only cried hard for 5 mins and then slept after 2hr 35 A time but only a 20 min nap. I was sat in the room out of sight watching him. When he woke he only moaned on and off for 5 mins and chewed on his hands. Then started properly crying so I spent 15 mins trying to resettle. When I got him up he was hungry.

It is like he isn't even taking any food in at the top up feed, it seems pointless doing a top up!

Also I realised he hadn't pooed for 5 days when he went this afternoon. I think it is the effect of starting him in a tiny bit of puree once per day. Could that be causing the 20 min wake ups? Seems unlikely as I'm giving him the solids at lunchtime so after his first nap. He also seems to be ravenous at the min. Might be the effect of his reflux meds making him realise he can eat, or could be 6 month GS early?

[katie80]

How long has he been on the reflux meds? Do you think you've found the right one/proper dose? I'm asking because I think that constant 20-30min wake-ups are often considered discomfort/pain, and your night last night definitely looks like there's some discomfort at play.  The night time could be the solids and digestive issues, but you're right that I don't think that would affect the naps as much (especially the morning one).  Do you think he's teething?  Do you see any bumps on the gums?

[sparklewings1984]

I definitely think he is teething, he has bumps on his bottom gums for about 6 weeks and had pain on and off ever since which I think is common for teething to come in waves of a few days here and there? He is also constantly cramming his or my hands into his mouth and really biting down.

The reflux meds he has been on for nearly 4 weeks now and definitely saw an improvement since starting them. However I give them to him before his BT routine starts, so I'm thinking it might be wearing off overnight and not helping with naps. I have a follow up apt with the paed in 4 weeks time but I might give then a call next week if it doesn't improve.

After he did 2 MONSTROUS poos today for the first time in 5 days (must be the solids!) I'm wondering if his tummy was causing him more discomfort than I realised. So glad that he has finally emptied himself!

I'll go for the 2hr 25 wind down again tomorrow morning....

[katie80]

It does sound like the teeth could be bothering him, and I think reflux can be a bit worse while teething as well. I would agree the rough night was likely due to digestive trouble with those two big poos today. It's quite a change for their little systems. Just be sure you're offering water or a top up BF with each solid meal and his body will get used to it.

[sparklewings1984]

Ok so I'll post today's EASY inc last night's wakings

BT 7.15pm
E 10.30pm
S 10.50pm
E 1am
S 1.20am
A 3.30am left in cot babbling and moaning
E 4.20am   
S 4.45am

WU 6.45am
E 7am
A
E 8.20am top up
A (2.40)
S 9.25am
Into cot at 2hr 25. Didn't cry during wind down or for first few mins. Stated to drift off a bit but then woke himself up. Some moaning and light crying for 5 mins. When he woke he was chewing his hands for a couple of minutes before started crying. Then when I tried to resettle he grabbed my hand and put it into his mouth chewing. After a couple of mins started crying again and got up after 15 mins of trying.
A 9.45am
E 10.25am
A (2.15)   
S 12pm on pram walk back from shops   
A 12.20pm
E 12.30pm milk + solids
A (1.50)
E 1.20pm top up
S 2.10pm   
Into cot at 1hr 40min. Couple of mins hard crying but then settled. Put on his side with a blanket propping him. Woke and tried to resettle for 10 mins. Then put his light show on and left him in the room alone. After 10 mins he cried again so got him up.   
A 2.30pm
E 3.30pm
A (2.00)
S 4.30pm APOP in arms
 Into cot at 1hr 40min, really screaming so after 15 mins took him out of the room and sat with him cuddled to sleep. Woke after 30 mins crying.
A 5pm
E 6pm
A BT routine
E 6.30pm
BT 7.15pm

So it seems like the settling to sleep is really improving but still hitting the 20 min problem.

I just spoke to our GP and he has agreed we can increase the Omeprazole to 10mg so I've just done that before tonight's BT. I do think it could be the reflux causing the problem as the other day I had given him pain meds all day for the teething and he was still waking at 20 mins. When he wakes he basically crams his hands into his mouth for a couple of minutes and then starts crying. Something definitely isn't right, he settles down really well and there must be a reason he can't transition through his naps.

[ZacsMumme]

Hey Hun, I agree with katie that this looks like discomfort is at least in part messing with sleep. 20 min WU for us were always discomfort, and 30-40 was Ut/OT or sometimes also discomfort.

Does your LO have a dummy?
When are you giving the omeprazole? - is it in granule form (open up the capsules and pour in?)
I wonder if you would be best to stop the solids and see if it helps....solids can sometimes be great for refluxers, but sometimes it messes them up
Have you got your LO on probiotics? - they will help with the tummy trouble too, and are good for the gut during the time he is in meds and while his digestive system is maturing.

I wouldnt worry about APOP at the moment. He's OT but you can't do much in the way of st right now anyway so I would aim for one nap in the cot if possible. If you get 20 mins try to resettle in your arms if you can - at the moment you all just need some sleep

One thing I do wonder is if he needs a higher A time just to start with to get him tired enough for a good morning nap. Again, even if it ends up in your arms, on a recliner, wrap or pram, car, etc for some ,or all of it. At 5 mths my touchy ds1 needed at least 2.5-2hrs45 after his night to get a good nap. His As got shorter throughout the day

[sparklewings1984]

Does your LO have a dummy?
When are you giving the omeprazole? - is it in granule form (open up the capsules and pour in?)
I wonder if you would be best to stop the solids and see if it helps....solids can sometimes be great for refluxers, but sometimes it messes them up
Have you got your LO on probiotics? - they will help with the tummy trouble too, and are good for the gut during the time he is in meds and while his digestive system is maturing.

Hi Sara,
He has never taken a dummy except for a handful of times. I've tried 3 different brands but no luck.
The omeprazole I'm giving him before BT routine starts and he takes it really well now it is part of the routine. It is always at least 90 mins since he last ate and 30 mins before his next feed as I know milk can affect it. We have Losec MUPS that we dissolve in water and then it is little coated granules in the solution that I syringe in. I have to do a few syringes of water to make sure all of the balls have been taken so he is getting about 20-30ml of water with it.

I actually only started the solids 7 days ago and he is only having 1 cube at lunchtime. Would like to keep on with them for now as having to take it slowly in case of further iintolerancs (he is cows milk intolerant and possibly soya).

Not giving him any probiotics but was going to try and find some dairy free ones to try. Both he and I were given antibiotics during and after labour and I know this can kill the gut bacteria in the gut.

This morning I food 2hr 25 min wind down and again he cried for 8mins or so and was asleep at 2hr 40 for a 20min nap. I've been doing 2hr 25 min wind down for about 1 week now, do you think I should try extending by 10 mins? He is now 5 months 2 weeks so I guess could be looking towards more A time anyway by the average A times for late 5 months.

When he had a 20 min nap I aim for 1 hr 45 to start the next wind down but he is always sleepy even before then! He seems to need shorter A times as the day goes on but I'm not sure if that is just because he NEVER had a long nap!?

[katie80]

So glad Sara can give you some advice on the reflux/ST front! Do you think it would be worth APOPing in your arms, wrap/sling, or stroller for all naps for a couple weeks while you get the meds straightened out, so that you'll at least have a base EASY to start from when you are able to ST? He's settling well at the 2h25 mark, resulting in a 2h40min A, which is typical for a late 5mo old with a bit higher A times. Maybe it's worth APOPing at that time to see what type of nap he'll do, as the 20min seems to be discomfort. Then, you can adjust from there.

[sparklewings1984]

I'm thinking of maybe doing first nap in his cot and APOP the rest. I think him doing 1 nap in the cot is really helping to keep reminding him that he can settle easily. I don't want to undo the work of the last week because it was horrible last Friday when he screamed the whole 40 minutes!

Even when I APOP he still cries before falling asleep, is this normal? I think because he is trying to get me to let him nurse to sleep so by crying and nuzzling into me it makes me think he is hungry but it is just comfort feeding! He also often cries when he wakes up from an APOP nap, again, is this normal?!?! Sometimes he opens his eyes and sees me and smiles and it is a truly lovely moment but very rare!

[katie80]

I'm thinking of maybe doing first nap in his cot and APOP the rest. I think him doing 1 nap in the cot is really helping to keep reminding him that he can settle easily. I don't want to undo the work of the last week because it was horrible last Friday when he screamed the whole 40 minutes!

Totally understand! You could start every nap in his cot and then resettle on you... would he do that? I think if they have the initial settling down, once you can rule out the discomfort, it's not so difficult to get them sleeping a longer nap if they are used to going back to sleep. All three of mine did developmentally short naps for awhile. I put my DS1 in the swing to fall back to sleep for the rest of his nap when he woke and he's been my best sleeper (partly due to his temperament/sleep needs). My DS2 wouldn't do it!

Even when I APOP he still cries before falling asleep, is this normal? I think because he is trying to get me to let him nurse to sleep so by crying and nuzzling into me it makes me think he is hungry but it is just comfort feeding! He also often cries when he wakes up from an APOP nap, again, is this normal?!?! Sometimes he opens his eyes and sees me and smiles and it is a truly lovely moment but very rare!

Sometimes this can be down to personality. I think touchy babies can have a tendency to cry more before sleep and when they wake up. The crying before could be part of the nursing prop for you still as well. Neither of my boys really woke happy (I think DS1 started to once he got a bit older, maybe 20-24mo).

[ZacsMumme]

I'm thinking of maybe doing first nap in his cot and APOP the rest. I think him doing 1 nap in the cot is really helping to keep reminding him that he can settle easily. I don't want to undo the work of the last week because it was horrible last Friday when he screamed the whole 40 minutes!

Totally understand! You could start every nap in his cot and then resettle on you... would he do that?

This is what I did, I never worried if I had to a pop 'back' to sleep and it never caused mud trouble really for either of my kids. Plus it meant I had secret weapons later on when they were sick they would let me cuddle them!

Yup I think you want to increase the A time by 10 mins. He could for sure be UT.

Isthere a reason you give the meds close to bt than in the morning?