5 month old...never napped well

[katie80]

Sounds like really good progress in getting him down! I do think it's worth it to try holding him through the 20min again and if he wakes, I'd try to resettle just like you're getting him down. I don't know about the 20min naps... typically they're considered discomfort. Will wait to take a look at your EASY.

[sparklewings1984]

Ok yesterday and today's EASY

Thursday   
WU 6.45am
E 7am bf 8.15am solids
A
S 9.15am (he was crying and yawning at 2hr 15)
A 9.35am
E 10.20am bf
S 12pm (again v tired and yawning, no crying)
A 12.20pm
E 12.50pm solids 1.15pm bf
A
S 2.25pm pram walk
A 3pm
E 4.15pm bf   
A
S 6pm (took 30 mins of crying)
A 6.30pm woke up very unhappy and tired. Did BT routine almost immediately.
E 7.15pm
BT 7.40pm

E 10.40pm didn't seem hungry, maybe just comfort sucking         
S 10.50pm
E 1.15am again comfort sucking
S 1.30am
E 4.45am actually hungry
S 5.15am

Friday
WU 7am
E 7.30am bf 8.30am solids
A
S 10.10am (only 10 mins settling with  5 mins crying!)     
A 10.30am
E 11.15am bf 12.45pm solids
A
S 1.50pm in the pram as we went out for the afternoon. He also dozed off for 5 mins in the car at about 12.30pm
A 2.30pm
E 3pm bf 4.15pm solids
A
S 5.10pm APOP pram walk
A 5.40pm  inc BT routine
E 6.50pm
S 7.30pm

I know yesterday I should have done early BT at 5.30-6pm instead of that last catnap.

Things have been so strange, since we got the domperidone for the reflux he has been much MUCH happier so I really think it is working. His first nap today I managed to turn him onto his tummy once he was asleep thinning he might sleep longer that way but no luck, so don't think it is reflux discomfort waking him now.

Do you think it is an IS problem? My health visitor said it could be the start of separation anxiety, especially as I've been holding /nursing him through naps for a few weeks.

I can't believe we have finally moved to 3.5-4 hourly feeds dirtying the day, it is unheard of and makes me think he was defibrillation comfort sucking for the reflux pain before now. I also can't believe how happy he had been even with his 20 minute power naps! I have been pretty emotional today, it is so nice to finally be able to enjoy my baby. I feel let down by the NHS that something wasn't done sooner but at the same time as long as the happiness continues I don't even care!

[katie80]

Aww, so many (((hugs))). I'm glad to hear you've been enjoying him. Babies with reflux and intolerances are hard work, you've done so well!

Are you trying to resettle the naps at all when he wakes at 20min or are you just getting him up? If you're fairly certain he's not in pain, then I think those 20min wakes could be habitual because he doesn't know how to keep himself asleep. And, if he's always used to you getting him up, then maybe he doesn't even try. I would start by trying to hold him through the jolts and if he wakes then really persist in resettling him for a good 20-30min. Hopefully, after a few days of that he'll start sleeping past that mark.

[sparklewings1984]

I have been trying to resettle him by running in quite quickly and shushing in the cot and then picking up to calm him and placing back down etc but he usually pings awake and starts screaming again. I haven't been persevering with him though.

I'll try going in at 15 mins and bending over the cot cuddling him so that when he stirs I am right there with him. I'll be back in a few days with an update!

[katie80]

Fingers crossed!

[sparklewings1984]

Quick question, he often wakes in the evening at the 2hr mark since I put him down, so 3 sleep cycles in for him. Originally I thought it was hunger as he was falling asleep feeding at BT from being so OT. So I started feeding him when he woke.

Now he is feeding well at BT and going down slightly awake so I know it can't be hunger. Do you think I've caused a habitual waking from feeding him previously? I've persisted with just settling him in the cot for the last 1.5 weeks or so, but he is still waking at 2hrs almost every night. Any suggestions on this? (Eg tonight BT was 6.50pm and he woke at 8.45pm ams it took 20 mins to resettle him in the cot. Not screaming but definite "I need comfort" cries)

[katie80]

Hmm, it could be an habitual waking now. It might be worth it to try wake-to-sleep at the 1-1h15min mark. Otherwise, I'd keep settling him and hope that once the routine irons out a bit, the waking finally goes. Often early night wakings are considered OT.

If he's not screaming, is it something you can wait on a bit and see if he settles on his own? I guess it's not a mantra cry though, if he's looking for comfort.

Here's the w2s link... How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

[sparklewings1984]

Right an update...

So to start with I've started trying to transition LO onto hypoallergenic formula. For 5 days now I've been doing bf first thing, then expressing for 3 feeds during the day to mix in with the formula,  then bf at BT.

Naps have stayed consistently bad. He is still settling easily at the 3 hour mark, with hardly any crying at all, but only 20 min naps. The 3rd nap every day I have APOPed as a pram walk just to try and get him at least 1hr in the afternoon. We are often doing early bedtimes even with 3 naps. I've been trying for at least 20 minutes each wake up to resettle him. A few times he had been on the verge of sleep again but then wakes up anyway. I've managed to keep him asleep to 40 minutes once by keeping my hand on him the whole time since he woke at 20 mins.

Night sleep....well it has vastly improved. VASTLY. Last night he was in his cot and asleep by 7pm. Woke at 11.30pm and I just thought I would see if he would settle with no feed. Took me 25 mins of on and off crying (mainly mantra crying) but he then settled himself when I dashed out of the room desperate for the toilet! He slept until 5.40am!!!! I did a bf but he wouldn't go back to sleep so we had to start the day early.

So....even with that solid night he only did 10.5 hours night sleep. I'm really thinking he might be LSN. Today I was going to try extending his A to 3hr 15 but he was falling asleep on me whilst walking around with him for his wind down so had to quickly get him in the cot bang on 3hr.

Any thoughts?

PS he is now almost 7 months, but just turned 6 months on gestational age

[katie80]

Great night!! I'm not sure what to say about the 20min naps... I think I'll ask around.

When you had your hand on him, did you remove it at 40min and that's when he woke or did he wake on his own then? Have you tried to repeat that? When he looks close to resettling after 20min of trying, is it worth going for a little longer to see if you can get him all the way there?

[sparklewings1984]

Yes exactly, I removed it at 40 mins and then he woke.

Well yesterday they were laying a new road surface outside my house and the stream roller was going for LO's nap....he slept 40 mins! So decided to try white noise again today (I was out this morning so tried it this afternoon). He settled with no crying, just rolled around a bit. 40 mins later woke screaming so I went in to resettle. Only took 10 mins and one PU and he was asleep again for another 40 mins!

I'm going to keep the white noise tomorrow and we'll see what happens. I can't remember when I stopped using it but I knowthat I thought it was annoying him rather than helping.

[katie80]

Oh, great!! All three of my kids sleep with a fan going in their room for white noise. I would too, if I didn't have to hear them!

Yes exactly, I removed it at 40 mins and then he woke.

I asked because 40min is another natural transition point. When I did W2S with my DS1, I held my hand on him until 50-55min to make sure I got him through 30/35/40/45min. So, if you try that again, I'd maybe hold it longer and see if that helps. But, hopefully you won't have to!

[sparklewings1984]

Something really strange has happened!!!! I'm now up to 50/50 formula and expressed milk giving him 4 bottles a day and only bf for NFs. Last night he slept 7pm-4.30am with no resettling required! He woke at 1am and settled himself fine. I bf him at 4.30am as he was screaming and then he took a full feed so was obviously hungry. He went back into his cot around 5am and I thought he was going to cause trouble as he was rolling side to side. I just chanced leaving him and he then settled and we had to go in and wake him at 7.20am!!! He had a 12 hour night! 

Today....he has self settled for all naps. And we had a 90 minute nap!!!! I CANNOT believe it.

So, I think part of it is because of his transition off my milk which is obviously still giving him some allergy issues, and part of it is to do with the sleep training we have been persevering with. Today went like this:

WU 7.20am
E 7.30am milk 8.30am solids
A
S 9.35am (30 mins, woke happy and chatting, think UT)
A 10.05am
E 11am milk
A
S 12.30am (90mins, woke crying)
A 2pm
E 2pm solids 2.20pm milk
A
S 3.15pm (45 mins, woke happy)
A
E 6pm milk
A BT routine
E 6.30pm finish bottle but still awake
S 7pm

My thoughts, he needs slightly longer 1st A time. I'm going to increase to 2hr 30 tomorrow and hold at that for a few days.

The second nap when he woke crying I think he needed more sleep as he was grumpy the whole time he was awake and signalling that he wanted to go back to bed. I will try and resettle if that happens again.

I just can't believe the change and it really must be to do with his tummy feeling better now. I just feel so bad that he has been suffering with my milk for so long. At least he is getting better now though!

I'll give an update each day for a few days, thanks so much for all your help on here. And be happy in the knowledge that the 20 min wake ups WERE probably discomfort still!

[katie80]

Wow, that sounds really good! Nice work!!

Please don't feel bad about your milk... complex allergies are really hard to figure out and deal with. You've done a great thing for him to nurse him this long. (((Hugs)))

[sparklewings1984]

Well I'm having a pretty good week with naps so far, some 90 mins +

LO is now only doing a 2 hour A time in between these naps, and we are seeing more NWs, some quite lengthy. Can I ask,  is it possible that now he is not in the discomfort he is catching up on his accumulated OT and hence the short A times (he is now 7 months, or 6 months 1 week corrected)? And this accumulated OT could also be the reason for his NWs now that he is sleeping more in the day?  Whereas previously he wasn't getting enough day sleep so was probably crashing out at night.

Does that sound right?

I'm just following his cues at the min which is where the 2 hour A time has come from. As it is giving us the 90 min naps I'm assuming he needs the sleep!

NWs yesterday for example with early BT of 6.15pm were:
7Pm resttled himself
7.45pm quick resettle
12.30am 90 minutes with lots of me going in and out of his room settling him
3am cried out and resettled himself
4.30am feed and resettled himself in cot after
6.45am wake up

[sparklewings1984]

I've noticed this week since we have the good naps (mostly self settling for these unless he is OT), our total sleep is 13-13.5 hours.

Trying to figure out is he LSN, or just chronically OT?! Would it be helpful to post this week's EASY? I'll have to do it this evening as need my phone which is currently being used for white noise every nap time!

If you want me to start a new post on the NW board or EASY board just let me know.

And thanks again for helping to keep me sane!