CN/BT questions

[lily_layne]

DS is pretty much on a 4 hour EASY (has been pretty much right from the start) but with his current A times the day length isn't quite working out. We either end up with the CN too early and he's OT by BT or he takes a second CN making for a very long day. I just recently pushed his A times a bit from 1h20/25 to 1h35/40 as we were getting more short naps. He used to need 17-18 hours sleep but lately that's dropping. Could his sleep needs have dropped or is it more likely that he's just not getting the sleep he needs?

Yesterday was:
WU: 7:00
S: 8:40-10:30
S: 12:10-2:50
S: 4:30-5:10
BT: started at 6:45, asleep by 7 (We rocked him.) Cry outs and soother at 8:10 and 8:40.

The wonky days are when he has a short am nap when we are on the go. Example:
WU: 7:30
S: 9:15-10
S: 11:30-2:30
S: 4-4:45
If we try for BT at 6:30 it either turns into a CN (6:30-7:15) and a BT of 8:30 or later or it takes close to an hour for him to settle.

We follow the exact same routine at BT as naps (when he gets fussy we swaddle, rock, PD and give soother) and get entirely different results. At naps, he konks out right away. BT takes way longer if we don't rock him. There's a lot more spitting up and burping in the evening so it could be discomfort. Also, he only seems to yawn once I've swaddled him and begun the WD. Is that just good timing on my part or a learned association?

[lily_layne]

I forgot to say that he's 3 months old.

[*Liz*]

Can I just ask - are naps in the cot or in the swing? I seem to remember you using one in the beginning??

[newkidontheblock]

Would you consider going for an earlier bedtime on days on which the CN ends too early? You are probably having a problem as he can't manage a long A to bed.

[lily_layne]

He sleeps in his bassinet now. What time would you try bt after the cn?

[newkidontheblock]

Okay, TBH, I don't think the issue is short am nap, as he is doing a good 2 hour nap after that. EBT is for bad nap days and your bub is a terrific napper. I think that he needs a longer A to bed.  You could try keeping a 2 hour gap till bed, maybe. What do you think?

If we try for BT at 6:30 it either turns into a CN (6:30-7:15) and a BT of 8:30 or later or it takes close to an hour for him to settle.

This is probably because he is not tired enough for bed yet but quickly gets OT in the process. If you find him protesting, keep him up for 10 minutes more and try again.

We follow the exact same routine at BT as naps (when he gets fussy we swaddle, rock, PD and give soother) and get entirely different results.

Well, IME, they do treat naps & nights differently. We have different routines for bed. So at that age it went nurse - bath & massage - nurse - swaddle - song - bed. Never had an issue with nights but we weren't as fortunate with naps:p

Also, he only seems to yawn once I've swaddled him and begun the WD. Is that just good timing on my part or a learned association?

The swaddle was always a very strong sleep cue for my DD. I remember sometimes she would be crying away & it would magically stop as soon as she was swaddled.

[lily_layne]

I think the issue when the CN falls too early is that he's a bit tired but not quite ready to sleep for the night as his day has been less than 12 hours. Does that make sense or am I overthinking this?

Last night, I tried quite a short A time after the CN just to see what would happen (and he was fussy). He did yawn a few times shortly after I started WD but took a long time to settle. He laid in bed with his soother for 20 minutes (not sure if he slept or not) and then I rocked him into a drowsy stupor and put him down and he went to sleep after 1h50 A time.
Our day was:
WU: 7:50 (I woke)
S: 9:30-12:10 (I woke)
S: 1:40-2:50 (bassinet), 3:20-4 (in my arms)
S: 5:45-6:30
BT: Started at 7:35, asleep at 8:15

I'll have to get DH to do BT if we're going to try a longer stretch as I am terrible for wanting to put him to bed as soon as he gets fussy

Naps and nights were different with DD also (both were tough, but nights were the hardest). There was a stretch where DS was settling easy at night so I hope a routine tweak gets up back to that.

[lily_layne]

Tonight we tried a longer A time after the CN. He did yawn once while hanging out in his swing around 1h15 but I forced myself to not rush him to bed and he was content for quite a while longer. DH took him in to bed at around 1h45 and he fell asleep right away but then cried out 10-15 minutes later. He took the soother the first 2 times and I just rocked him back to sleep on the 3rd cry out. OT?

Today was:
WU: 8
S: 9:40-10:50
S: 12:30-3:20
S: 5:15-6 (one cry out 10 minutes in)
BT: Started at 7:50 and down for good (I hope) by 8:30

[newkidontheblock]

Sounds good:) Maybe pull back 5 minutes. Another thing I can suggest (but this is what I am finding with DD now, not at that age) is that if I do a slightly longer A before the CN, then I don't have an issue with bed. Otherwise there's a bit of UT/OT thing happening.

[lily_layne]

Both are good suggestions. We went out to a mom and baby group this morning so he had a pretty long A time, a short nap and another long A time so things might be different tonight.

[lily_layne]

Horrid bt tonight. Going on over an hour.
Today was
Wu 630
S 8-10
S 1140-1230
S 220-515
BT rocked to sleep at 720 and then needed soother at 740 and 8. Up again after that so i nursed him. I think he is close to sleep now at 840
Does anything jump out at you? Any chace ditching the swaddle might help?

[*Liz*]

I think it's your super long pm nap and total amount of day sleep  .

That was 6hrs worth of naps  . To then get a 12 hr night means 18hrs sleep which is a lot  . Isn't that how much he was sleeping at 4/6 weeks?

Thomas had a total of 4 hours naps yesterday.

This is where A times and EASY doesn't quite work  . It doesn't all add up properly. Also remember the A times are after a 1.5-2hr nap rather than a 3hr nap. Logically they will need more A especially now they are waking up so much more.

[*Liz*]

Just another idea.... If 18hrs is the magic amount it really ought to be 4 naps still.... So 3x1.5 plus a CN. That would still add another 45-60mins A/ day.

Does he fight the swaddle? Or squirm out?

[Emami]

How did it go when you did this?

We went out to a mom and baby group this morning so he had a pretty long A time, a short nap and another long A time so things might be different tonight.

Did he settle any better?  I'm just wondering still if he is a bit UT for bed and if more A time and less sleep in the run up to bedtime made a difference?

I know tonight he had a 2hr A time before bed so he should be tired, but that's coming off the back of a 3hr nap.  I probably would've woken him after 2hrs and done an earlier BT.  I hate hate hate waking a sleeping baby, but I know if Annabel slept that long and late she would be hard to get to bed too.  I've found with both my two at this age that they are more wakeful in the evening and can handle longer A times much better than they can earlier in the day.

Since Reid and Annabel are only a few days apart, maybe it would help to see how our day went today?  I'm not saying that because I think I'm getting anything right and you're getting it wrong - our days are still a bit unpredictable - but today was a good example of more A time in the evening.

WU 6:30 (earlier than usual, and looks like this was early for Reid today too?)
Nap 1 8:30-10
Nap 2 11:45-12:30
Nap 3 2-3:30
BT 6:15
She does usually get more daytime sleep than this so it wasn't a great nap day. I thought about trying for a CN at 5ish but pushed through instead and she was fine.  I don't know if Reid could handle that, but to me it's a better option than a late nap.  Hope you get a good night tonight once he's down 

[lily_layne]

Thanks for your input ladies. It sounds like you both agree with Fleur that it may be UT.

think it's your super long pm nap and total amount of day sleep  .

I was wondering if it's that. His long nap is usually in the middle of the day, but he didn't nap well at noon. Would his sleep needs have dropped now that he's older? I read my other thread on this board and it was a month ago which is 1/3 of this life so even though those are the sleep amounts I keep thinking of, I can't really go by that, can I? He woke this morning at 7:15 happy and chatting. I was worried it was an OT wake but he was very calm and happy for his whole morning A time so he clearly was rested which makes me think he does need less sleep than before.

I have thought that maybe the 3x1.5 might be better but that would involve me waking him up a lot more so I don't think that's right for him. Also, he has rarely ever taken 4 naps, even as a newborn. I'm trying to think of what I would do if I hadn't seen that particular routine written out and the answer is I would use my intuition and follow his cues so I think it's best to find a way to make things work with his rhythms.

How did it go when you did this?Quote from: lily_layne on March 05, 2015, 20:56:34 PMWe went out to a mom and baby group this morning so he had a pretty long A time, a short nap and another long A time so things might be different tonight.Did he settle any better?  I'm just wondering still if he is a bit UT for bed and if more A time and less sleep in the run up to bedtime made a difference?

I haven't been logging and the last few days are a tired blur but as best as I can remember Thursday was:
WU: 8:30
S: 10:30-11:10 (carseat)
S: 1:10-3:50
S: 5:45-7:10 (I woke - wanted to wake earlier but was busy with DD)
BT: Rocked to sleep around 9. I rocked him for quite a while once asleep and he stayed asleep.
Maybe more A time/less sleep did make a difference???

Friday was:
WU: 7:30
S: 9:10-10:50
S: 12:30-1, 1:30-4
S: 6-6:15 (not sure if he slept and couldn't resettle)
BT: 7:30 He did stay asleep but that's because I rocked him for quite a while before I PD. I did try putting him to sleep in his bassinet but that was a screaming mess.

When DH rocks him, he puts him down as soon as he's asleep and then we get the wake ups. He is falling asleep right away (DH says within 2-3 minutes) after 1h50ish A time after a 45 min CN but then we have trouble getting him to stay asleep. Does that sound like it's because he's tired but not tired enough to get into a deep sleep?

've found with both my two at this age that they are more wakeful in the evening and can handle longer A times much better than they can earlier in the day.

I think this might be the case. I think I am letting my fear and anxiety about OT cloud my intuition and judgment about this one. Thanks for sharing your day. It is helpful to see that a long A time doesn't kill a baby Do you get early night wakes after a day like that?

What do you think I should try? Shorten the CN? More A time after it?