Author Topic: CN/BT questions  (Read 4051 times)

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Offline lily_layne

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CN/BT questions
« on: March 03, 2015, 16:57:06 pm »
DS is pretty much on a 4 hour EASY (has been pretty much right from the start) but with his current A times the day length isn't quite working out. We either end up with the CN too early and he's OT by BT or he takes a second CN making for a very long day. I just recently pushed his A times a bit from 1h20/25 to 1h35/40 as we were getting more short naps. He used to need 17-18 hours sleep but lately that's dropping. Could his sleep needs have dropped or is it more likely that he's just not getting the sleep he needs?

Yesterday was:
WU: 7:00
S: 8:40-10:30
S: 12:10-2:50
S: 4:30-5:10
BT: started at 6:45, asleep by 7 (We rocked him.) Cry outs and soother at 8:10 and 8:40.

The wonky days are when he has a short am nap when we are on the go. Example:
WU: 7:30
S: 9:15-10
S: 11:30-2:30
S: 4-4:45
If we try for BT at 6:30 it either turns into a CN (6:30-7:15) and a BT of 8:30 or later or it takes close to an hour for him to settle.

We follow the exact same routine at BT as naps (when he gets fussy we swaddle, rock, PD and give soother) and get entirely different results. At naps, he konks out right away. BT takes way longer if we don't rock him. There's a lot more spitting up and burping in the evening so it could be discomfort. Also, he only seems to yawn once I've swaddled him and begun the WD. Is that just good timing on my part or a learned association?

DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 00:12:03 am »
I forgot to say that he's 3 months old.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 06:41:33 am »
Can I just ask - are naps in the cot or in the swing? I seem to remember you using one in the beginning??

Offline newkidontheblock

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 07:24:51 am »
Would you consider going for an earlier bedtime on days on which the CN ends too early? You are probably having a problem as he can't manage a long A to bed.






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 13:18:33 pm »
He sleeps in his bassinet now. What time would you try bt after the cn?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline newkidontheblock

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 13:54:46 pm »
Okay, TBH, I don't think the issue is short am nap, as he is doing a good 2 hour nap after that. EBT is for bad nap days and your bub is a terrific napper. I think that he needs a longer A to bed.  You could try keeping a 2 hour gap till bed, maybe. What do you think?

If we try for BT at 6:30 it either turns into a CN (6:30-7:15) and a BT of 8:30 or later or it takes close to an hour for him to settle.
This is probably because he is not tired enough for bed yet but quickly gets OT in the process. If you find him protesting, keep him up for 10 minutes more and try again.

We follow the exact same routine at BT as naps (when he gets fussy we swaddle, rock, PD and give soother) and get entirely different results.
Well, IME, they do treat naps & nights differently. We have different routines for bed. So at that age it went nurse - bath & massage - nurse - swaddle - song - bed. Never had an issue with nights but we weren't as fortunate with naps:p

Also, he only seems to yawn once I've swaddled him and begun the WD. Is that just good timing on my part or a learned association?
The swaddle was always a very strong sleep cue for my DD. I remember sometimes she would be crying away & it would magically stop as soon as she was swaddled.






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 21:23:52 pm »
I think the issue when the CN falls too early is that he's a bit tired but not quite ready to sleep for the night as his day has been less than 12 hours. Does that make sense or am I overthinking this?

Last night, I tried quite a short A time after the CN just to see what would happen (and he was fussy). He did yawn a few times shortly after I started WD but took a long time to settle. He laid in bed with his soother for 20 minutes (not sure if he slept or not) and then I rocked him into a drowsy stupor and put him down and he went to sleep after 1h50 A time.
Our day was:
WU: 7:50 (I woke)
S: 9:30-12:10 (I woke)
S: 1:40-2:50 (bassinet), 3:20-4 (in my arms)
S: 5:45-6:30
BT: Started at 7:35, asleep at 8:15

I'll have to get DH to do BT if we're going to try a longer stretch as I am terrible for wanting to put him to bed as soon as he gets fussy ;)

Naps and nights were different with DD also (both were tough, but nights were the hardest). There was a stretch where DS was settling easy at night so I hope a routine tweak gets up back to that.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 02:49:48 am »
Tonight we tried a longer A time after the CN. He did yawn once while hanging out in his swing around 1h15 but I forced myself to not rush him to bed and he was content for quite a while longer. DH took him in to bed at around 1h45 and he fell asleep right away but then cried out 10-15 minutes later. He took the soother the first 2 times and I just rocked him back to sleep on the 3rd cry out. OT?

Today was:
WU: 8
S: 9:40-10:50
S: 12:30-3:20
S: 5:15-6 (one cry out 10 minutes in)
BT: Started at 7:50 and down for good (I hope) by 8:30
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline newkidontheblock

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 04:02:41 am »
Sounds good:) Maybe pull back 5 minutes. Another thing I can suggest (but this is what I am finding with DD now, not at that age) is that if I do a slightly longer A before the CN, then I don't have an issue with bed. Otherwise there's a bit of UT/OT thing happening.






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 20:56:34 pm »
Both are good suggestions. We went out to a mom and baby group this morning so he had a pretty long A time, a short nap and another long A time so things might be different tonight.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 02:42:13 am »
Horrid bt tonight. Going on over an hour.
Today was
Wu 630
S 8-10
S 1140-1230
S 220-515
BT rocked to sleep at 720 and then needed soother at 740 and 8. Up again after that so i nursed him. I think he is close to sleep now at 840
Does anything jump out at you? Any chace ditching the swaddle might help?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2015, 03:00:15 am »
I think it's your super long pm nap and total amount of day sleep  :-\.

That was 6hrs worth of naps  :-\. To then get a 12 hr night means 18hrs sleep which is a lot  ???. Isn't that how much he was sleeping at 4/6 weeks?

Thomas had a total of 4 hours naps yesterday.

This is where A times and EASY doesn't quite work  ;). It doesn't all add up properly. Also remember the A times are after a 1.5-2hr nap rather than a 3hr nap. Logically they will need more A especially now they are waking up so much more.

Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2015, 03:12:05 am »
Just another idea.... If 18hrs is the magic amount it really ought to be 4 naps still.... So 3x1.5 plus a CN. That would still add another 45-60mins A/ day.

Does he fight the swaddle? Or squirm out?

Offline Emami

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 03:20:36 am »
How did it go when you did this?
We went out to a mom and baby group this morning so he had a pretty long A time, a short nap and another long A time so things might be different tonight.

Did he settle any better?  I'm just wondering still if he is a bit UT for bed and if more A time and less sleep in the run up to bedtime made a difference?

I know tonight he had a 2hr A time before bed so he should be tired, but that's coming off the back of a 3hr nap.  I probably would've woken him after 2hrs and done an earlier BT.  I hate hate hate waking a sleeping baby, but I know if Annabel slept that long and late she would be hard to get to bed too.  I've found with both my two at this age that they are more wakeful in the evening and can handle longer A times much better than they can earlier in the day.

Since Reid and Annabel are only a few days apart, maybe it would help to see how our day went today?  I'm not saying that because I think I'm getting anything right and you're getting it wrong - our days are still a bit unpredictable - but today was a good example of more A time in the evening.

WU 6:30 (earlier than usual, and looks like this was early for Reid today too?)
Nap 1 8:30-10
Nap 2 11:45-12:30
Nap 3 2-3:30
BT 6:15
She does usually get more daytime sleep than this so it wasn't a great nap day. I thought about trying for a CN at 5ish but pushed through instead and she was fine.  I don't know if Reid could handle that, but to me it's a better option than a late nap.  Hope you get a good night tonight once he's down  :-*
Emma






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2015, 15:55:36 pm »
Thanks for your input ladies. It sounds like you both agree with Fleur that it may be UT.
think it's your super long pm nap and total amount of day sleep  .
I was wondering if it's that. His long nap is usually in the middle of the day, but he didn't nap well at noon. Would his sleep needs have dropped now that he's older? I read my other thread on this board and it was a month ago which is 1/3 of this life so even though those are the sleep amounts I keep thinking of, I can't really go by that, can I? He woke this morning at 7:15 happy and chatting. I was worried it was an OT wake but he was very calm and happy for his whole morning A time so he clearly was rested which makes me think he does need less sleep than before.

I have thought that maybe the 3x1.5 might be better but that would involve me waking him up a lot more so I don't think that's right for him. Also, he has rarely ever taken 4 naps, even as a newborn. I'm trying to think of what I would do if I hadn't seen that particular routine written out and the answer is I would use my intuition and follow his cues so I think it's best to find a way to make things work with his rhythms.

How did it go when you did this?Quote from: lily_layne on March 05, 2015, 20:56:34 PMWe went out to a mom and baby group this morning so he had a pretty long A time, a short nap and another long A time so things might be different tonight.Did he settle any better?  I'm just wondering still if he is a bit UT for bed and if more A time and less sleep in the run up to bedtime made a difference?
I haven't been logging and the last few days are a tired blur but as best as I can remember Thursday was:
WU: 8:30
S: 10:30-11:10 (carseat)
S: 1:10-3:50
S: 5:45-7:10 (I woke - wanted to wake earlier but was busy with DD)
BT: Rocked to sleep around 9. I rocked him for quite a while once asleep and he stayed asleep.
Maybe more A time/less sleep did make a difference???

Friday was:
WU: 7:30
S: 9:10-10:50
S: 12:30-1, 1:30-4
S: 6-6:15 (not sure if he slept and couldn't resettle)
BT: 7:30 He did stay asleep but that's because I rocked him for quite a while before I PD. I did try putting him to sleep in his bassinet but that was a screaming mess.

When DH rocks him, he puts him down as soon as he's asleep and then we get the wake ups. He is falling asleep right away (DH says within 2-3 minutes) after 1h50ish A time after a 45 min CN but then we have trouble getting him to stay asleep. Does that sound like it's because he's tired but not tired enough to get into a deep sleep?

've found with both my two at this age that they are more wakeful in the evening and can handle longer A times much better than they can earlier in the day.
I think this might be the case. I think I am letting my fear and anxiety about OT cloud my intuition and judgment about this one. Thanks for sharing your day. It is helpful to see that a long A time doesn't kill a baby ;) Do you get early night wakes after a day like that?

What do you think I should try? Shorten the CN? More A time after it?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline Emami

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2015, 04:11:26 am »
She slept 6:15-5:15, which I guess really is STTN since it was 11hrs.  I fed her and then she went back down until 7:45.  I would be hesitant to do EBT if she was up at 5 and that was it, but hasn't happened so far with either of my two.  I'm a huge fan of EBT but I know it doesn't work for everyone.  No early night wakes in the first part of the night either.  Not sure if you were asking about early waking pre-midnight from long A times and OT, or early starts to the day, but either way it's never caused a problem for me
Emma






Offline newkidontheblock

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 07:46:01 am »
What do you think I should try? Shorten the CN? More A time after it?
Yes I think it would make a difference if you cap naps at 2.5 hours max and keep the CN to 30/45 mins. Otherwise hun, it is a case of day sleep taking away from the night, and if you end the day with a one hour nap, then BT will have to be pushed back to compensate and you will be shortening your night even further
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 15:57:54 pm by newkidontheblock »






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2015, 15:31:04 pm »
Yesterday was
WU 715
S 910-1040
S 1230-230 (I woke)
S 4-5 (I think. DS was with mil)
BT 740 He was tired earlier but we were out

He woke at 540 and would not go back to sleep. First nap was 810-830. Should I cap naps today or let him catch up?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline newkidontheblock

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2015, 16:02:40 pm »
For a day like that, 7 would have been best for BT, and so that explains the 5.40 OT WU.  I would still suggest that you cap naps. 2.5 hrs is restorative enough. At the end of the day, you want him to get most of his sleep at night.






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2015, 16:59:01 pm »
Thanks.

He was definitely ready for sleep at 7 but we weren't able to get home in time. The day was too beautiful to spend inside! He was drowsing in his carseat and went back to square one for falling asleep when I took him out.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2015, 01:33:14 am »
I hate BT. :'( Why does it always have to be struggle? Tonight we had a nice WD and I put him down when he was calm and yawning (just like naps) and he fell asleep with his soother but then was up 10 minutes later. I picked him up and he burped but didn't settle on me and I was frustrated and near tears so I put him in the swing. DH ended up rocking him to sleep and putting him back in the swing. Total time: 50 minutes......grrrrrrrr. Now I'm worried about another OT early wake up.

Today was:
WU: 5:40
S: 8:10-8:40
S: 10:30-1:00
S: 3:15-4:35 - I couldn't wake him earlier. He was with me in a meeting.
BT: Started at 6:20, asleep just past 7. What could I have done differently? If I could have, should I have capped that last nap?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2015, 02:35:29 am »
Is it possible he just needs a more set bedtime, with the final nap ended in time to facilitate it? Regardless of that nap length really ie awake by 5pm for a 7pm bedtime?

A lot of LOs do seen to do better when things match a body clock somewhat.... And most LOs nap badly at this age with Mums doing bedtimes at 7ish regardless iyswim? Or 30 mins early after a shocker of a day.

Regardless of the A time or the routine both my older kids did better when the routine stayed the same for a while. Megan was very 'clock orientated' even from this sort of age. Even now we need her in bed by 7pm else she is far harder to get down.

Just an idea. I wonder if it is all too 'fluid' and variable.

Offline newkidontheblock

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2015, 02:37:03 am »
Your day seems fine. Even with the one hour nap towards the end, you are leaving a reasonable gap to bed. How long do you think he can handle before bed? Is it that he needed to be in 10-15 minutes earlier, do you think?

ETA: agree with Liz about set BT. For the first 6 months, I WU Eris at 7 sharp and she slept at 7, regardless of naps. I never had a problem with BT. She just wanted to sleep at that time.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 02:39:08 am by newkidontheblock »






Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2015, 02:50:35 am »
Is it possible he just needs a more set bedtime, with the final nap ended in time to facilitate it? Regardless of that nap length really ie awake by 5pm for a 7pm bedtime?
This is a good idea. DH would be all for it. He keeps saying the problem is that BT is all over the place. I've been arguing with him but he's going on intuition which may be the way to go. I think it would take stress off of me too. How do I figure out the best BT? If I do set BT do I do set WU also?

Regardless of the A time or the routine both my older kids did better when the routine stayed the same for a while.
Do you mean napping at the same time each day for a while?

BT took 40 minutes tonight. I just sat with him and gave him the soother when needed. Same pattern - went down easily but cried 10 minutes in and then lots of head movement as he settled to sleep. One last cry 20 minutes after that. Could discomfort be a factor? He just seems to have trouble getting into a deep sleep at BT. He is gassier in the evening and does spit up a bit more?

I had to wake DS from all of his naps today which makes me think that he does need more sleep than he's gotten the last few days. My mom said today that she can't remember ever waking us from naps which is causing me a lot of anxiety about whether I am interfering with his ability to self-regulate. Has anyone tried just letting their LO sleep and seeing what happens?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2015, 03:04:28 am »
I don't wake from naps much - but I don't need to - my DS never sleeps much!

I've woken so many times in the past to preserve bedtime.

I think you have to choose basically. If you want a 7pm (ish) bedtime then you will have to wake from naps until his body adjusts to the new plan. I just hate being on duty all evening  :-\. I'm pretty introverted and need my downtime.

I get what your mum says, but equally would she have even done a 5pm nap, or just done bath and bed a little later? These later CNs are very 'BWer', and most people would avoid anyway iyswim?

My 7pm bedtime is a huge priority for me though. I like an early night, and I eat with DH after he gets in from work. Unfortunately my DS1 is too old for that now but he does at least self entertain  ;).

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2015, 13:31:02 pm »
My mom said she couldn't recall doing a third nap. He had a long chatty nw at 5 so maybe 2 naps is the way to go???
I like my evenings too. I would like ds down by 7 or 730. Do i wake him in the mornings too?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 18:42:02 pm by lily_layne »
DD - August 2012
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Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2015, 14:42:27 pm »
No - I always let them wake in the morning. I do recall a phase of waking DS1 to stop 13-14hr nights as obviously he wouldn't nap after that either!

There is a danger 2x3hr naps would rob night as well, but I guess it's trial and error. My DD did just 2 naps from about 4 mths, seemed to suit her rhythm and she always refused the CN.

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2015, 16:15:34 pm »
I am wondering if that would work best for him as I seem to often be waking him from naps. I did some reading this morning (bad idea) and lots of schedules have a 3rd nap but one source said only 20% of babies have a 3rd nap.

If you let them wake in the morning does that mean some days are less than 12 hours with a set BT if they did a long night?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline *Liz*

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2015, 17:29:20 pm »
Neither of mine has ever really done long nights. Jacob was always 10.5-11, Megan 11.5-12.

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2015, 18:43:53 pm »
Right now, I'm not sure what night length Reid would be happy with. He was doing 12-13 but I know that can change. Clearly his nights aren't enough for him right because he had an OT am nap and was yawning and yawning and yawning in the following A time. I did a shorter A time and he still did an OT 20 min cry out.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: CN/BT questions
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2015, 19:13:47 pm »
I just need to post a small victory: BT last night did not take ages! I put him down after 1h30 A time with his soother and we only needed to replug at 20 minutes. :) But...the night went downhill from there. He has a cold so I am assuming that was the problem. While he's sick, I'm just going to follow his lead and I'll try again with a more consistent routine when he's well. In a way, it's a relief to quit stressing about it (not that I'm glad he's so stuffed up).
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014