Help for 9mo please

[Martini~]

How is his mood vs days on capped naps? Are you needed to resettle?

[katie80]

I was wondering what the NWs on Tues were like (at 21:15 and 3:15).... will be interesting to see what he does tonight with a 12.5hr day rather than 13. Might need to do a full week before you see any firm patterns.

[jessmum46]

He seems tired and a bit clingy first thing but mood yesterday was mainly lovely until just before bedtime.  I do wonder if we have teeth bothering him again though....tues NWs 21.15 was very upset but did eventually self-settle, 3.15 was upset/unsettled for a while but settled after some pain meds. 

This morning he yelled at 4.10 then slept coughing intermittently until 5.20ish I tried pain meds and a feed but although he went quiet for a few mins each time I don't think he properly went back to sleep.  We got up just after 6.  So I'm going to go for nap about the same time as yesterday, I don't want to pull it much earlier in the day really 

[katie80]

Ugh, teeth! I wouldn't want to do the day much earlier either. Do you think it's worth a try to do a dream med around 3/4am to see if it helps with the EW? It's so hard to get them back to sleep during the 5am hour! We were up at 5:15 this morning...

[jessmum46]

Ugh, DS woke at 5.15 too after a mess of a day yesterday and a bad night (I gave meds around 1am) I *think* he resettled (or at least was quiet) until 5.40/50 but was definitely up from then. We got up at 6.

Do you think given he is so prone to EW I am doing the right thing counting A from 'official' WU time? (Currently 6am if awake earlier).  So first nap is not before 9.30am?  I worry that if I count from actual WU we'll be having pre-9am naps which at his age is ridiculous right?

I wonder do you think I need to push on nap start time regardless of WU aiming for more like 9.45/10am start ie 3h45-4h from WU?  I feel like the early nap can't be helping us really . But he's so shattered and ready for it....

[Martini~]

Katherine, just (((hugs))).

I think you have either the option of pushing the first nap a bit like to make it at 10am and than later and later... or you can go back to the idea of a catnap in the morning if he is so shattered. But if you go for a catnap, I would make it no more than 20min and even around 8:30/9:00 as if it is so short it shouldn't be a problem. Than do a nap at 12/12:30 aiming for 2h and do BT at 7pm after 4-4.5h of A.
I've read recently quite a good book where they state that for LSN kids any sleep before 12noon and after 2pm can steal from night sleep. So its good to have even 3 naps for them up to 9mo but morning and afternoon shouldn't be longer than 20min, but you can let whatever they want between 12 and 2pm.

Oh, I don't know if that's helpful, sorry. I am messing up with the idea of short/long once again.
Just trying to find ways to help...

[michaeljacknnugg]

I wonder do you think I need to push on nap start time regardless of WU aiming for more like 9.45/10am start ie 3h45-4h from WU?

Yes. I would chuck WU time out of the window and go with set-ish naps if it were me. He will be down to 1 nap soon enough, and so aiming to push the first nap later will help you with this.

If he is ready to sleep whenever, it makes it tricky to tell when is the right time. Does he cope with extending A?

[jessmum46]

Marta thanks I think I'm going to try to stick out the long am a bit longer (still no idea if he's really LSN lol!) but may come back to the other way of doing things if it all goes a bit pear-shaped. 

Does he cope with stretching?  Well apart from rare occasions he will stay awake with enough distraction, can be quite crabby though and needs holding a lot.  To be honest that may just be him though....he's usually happier after eating so some of it could just be he's starving!  Boys are very different!!!

I may try to move the first nap towards 10am then, which will become 11am in a couple of weeks after DST and let him sleep as long as he wants.  Then more flexible second nap aiming for 6.30pm bedtime (7.30pm after DST).  He doesn't really tack on which is a pain so keeping the longer day is probably better for us.  Hopefully that will get us on the road to the one nap at 11.30ish that he'll need for nursery from June. 

Thanks for the input ladies x

[katie80]

I think that's the way to go... you won't be helping yourself at all by doing nap before 9:30, esp as he seems to need a later BT to get a decent WU. You can always make the nap later by just 10min at a time too... no reason you have to jump straight to 9:45/10.  (((Hugs))), Katherine... hang in there... eventually it gets easier (or at least that's what I keep telling myself ).

[jessmum46]

Some encouragement please ladies, not been great this weekend . I should say he has a cold (again) but I don't think that's the whole story.  Following on from the days above....

Thurs:
WU 5.20
Nap 9.35-10.20 (he does 45 min OT naps)
Nap 13.50-14.35, resettle to 14.55
BT 18.30 too late I know
NWs 19.25 & 21.15 (self settled), meds at 1am

Fri:
WU 5.15 settled self to 5.40/50
Nap 9.35-10.35
Nap 14.05-14.55 woke reasonably happy
BT 18.30
Unsettled night

Sat:
WU 5.15/30
Nap 9.40-10.50 (stirred at 45m)
Nap 14.20-15.10 (stirred at 30m but woke reasonably happy)
BT 18.30
Unsettled night again
NW 4.30-5.25 fed and held him 

Sun:
WU 7 I woke
Nap 10.45-12.10
Nap 16.10-16.50 in car, I woke (struggled to get him to nap in bed hence the car nap)
BT put down 18.55, chattered a while then mad!! Settled 19.35

Mon:
WU 5.05 couldn't settle even with AP....

...which brings me to another thing.  My 'default' for EWs is to try feeding we'd stopped doing it and I end up panicking and doing it again.  Ugh.  It's not like it really works apart from once in a blue moon.  Tell me to stop it please!

So what do I do?  Stick to planned morning nap time despite the EW?  That'll be a mega-long A time.....but an appropriate A time means a pre-9am nap.....

[Martini~]

Hello Katherine, great hugs for start of the day.

So yes... after looking at your routine, I think you have to push, but maybe not the morning nap as he is shattered here, but the afternoon one, WDYT? Look at Sunday... quite good day and very good night except from EWU but it was probably too short day for him and he showed that to you by BT refusal.

So what about Sunday routine but pushed so:
WU 6am or so
after 3:45 A Nap at 9:45 (so the nap can be 9:45 and it's fine, in general this nap was 1.5h and probably that's what you should aim for)
after 4h!!! A Nap 15.10-15.50 in car/pram (this nap is different to your previous days as it is later in the day?)
BT at 7pm / in bed maybe 6:45?
You have here 45min+1.5h so 2:15 of day sleep but on 13h day.

I wouldn't resettle at 5am with feeding Hon, but I would go for this day 5-6pm for next days so to wean morning feeding prop and do it until DST and you should land on 6-7 routine finally.

I would also think of moving morning nap gradually later and later in next 3 months until he is in the nursery, but shortening second A, so I would keep the second nap set at 3pm and APOP it. You are already APOPing if first nap is late and long enough so I would keep it like that. We did that for couple of weeks/months when doing 2:1. Morning nap gradually moved from 11:15 till 12:00 and afternoon one fixed at 4pm, after shorter and shorter A. WDYT?

[jessmum46]

Hey . Thanks for the reply! 

I know he was UT at BT yesterday, he almost never resists BT and the only different thing was the late CN with not enough A afterwards.  Won't be doing that again!!!

And yes I know I need to stop trying to feed . It's fine when he wakes closer to 6, I can deal with a few minutes of him shouting and then we just get up for the day.  It's when it is 5am that it's horrible!  And I just stress about the day being a mess and think 'if he'd just go back down for while.....' argh!  Ok, no more morning feed!

But are you suggesting I should get up with him at 5am??  I know DST is coming but still, I mean 6am is a rubbish start time to the day!  It's kind of my 'earliest acceptable' but I'd really prefer 6.30/7.  So not keen to reinforce any earlier really  . We haven't been getting up before 6am and taking start of A time from then so 3h45 A = 9.45am nap.  I really am a bit worried going any earlier will just reinforce an early start yk?  And we will descend further into early nap/early bed silliness.....but maybe I'm wrong?

[Martini~]

Oh no Hun, you are totally right. I thought you like the 6am WU as you would like to have 7pm BT? I just don't think it's reasonable to want a 12h night from him and you never seem to go for BT later than 7pm...?

However I would definitely go for pushing morning nap so you have one 1.5h nap a day and anything you can get out of the catnap. I guess 45min is fine now, but could be 15-30mkn quite soon.

[jessmum46]

Totally right as ever!! Ok yes 12h unlikely, I can dream right?!  I can deal with 6am so will continue to resettle until then.  Or try!  But no feed   I don't really like BT much later than 7pm you are right as DD in bed 6.30pm and otherwise I spend the whole evening doing BT. So maybe I will have to cope with a 6-6.30/7 day.

So keep first nap at set time?  And push forwards to get 1.5h (hopefully).  I did get him to a 9.45am nap this morning (goodness knows how....) and he slept 55 mins with no resettle clearly completely doolally!!  Wish me luck.....

[jessmum46]

Oh yes just realised we're back in a WW again too