4 month old sleep all over the place

[Kfro]

I am in desperate need of some help. My four month old has never been a very good napper but it has recently taken a turn for the worse. I find it extremely difficult to read his sleepy cues as they seem to change on a daily basis. He was on a 1.5 hour activity time but I recently tried to increase this as his nights started going haywire (previously he would sleep from 7 until 4/5 and then until 7 after a feed and had on se nights started sleeping through) and he was waking up multiple times a night. I thought that it could be due to him needing more activity time so I gradually increased it to 1 hour 45. With this new activity te I was able to get him drowsy in my arms and then he would go to sleep in his cot for 30-45 minutes. I would then have to help him through the transition but I was managing to keep him down for an hour and a half most of the time (although I was worrying about becoming a prop). This increase in activity time meant his last nap ended at 430 and so there wasn't time for a catnap without bedtime being too late. Instead I tried to ensure he was in bed by 615. This didn't happen however... Bath time took longer than expected or feed went on for longer .... So he was going to bed overtired and started to get a bit shorty when he was put down ( he has always put himself to sleep pretty quickly at bedtime before. Although this new schedule did improve his nights it has no rant he is waking up between 3 and 4 very alert. He doesn't seem hungry as he doesn't cry but doesn't go back to sleep. This has meant that by 6am he is exhausted and we now seem to be in an ot loop. I have reduced his at today to 1.5 hours again and have ap'd naps in his pram to ensure lengthy ones so I'm hoping this will help. He will also have a catnap today but I just don't know what to do with regards to getting him into a routine with a longer a time and improve his naps so he doesn't get overtired?

[Lycheewaves]

Hi there, sorry to hear about your baby's nap issues. Just to clarify is the problem that he wakes up and stays up at 3/4 am not hungry but alert and then stays awake till 6? We had similar problems with ours and was usually solved by increasing his awake time. What's your current EASY?

[Kfro]

Yes. I think he drifts in and out of sleep a little bit but mostly chats away to himself. If I try to go in and resettle him I often just get greeted with a big smile and it seems to make him even less likely to go back to sleep! I try to start off the day at 6 and try to wait out at least 3 hours and fifteen minutes between feeds but exactly how long depends on naps. I was doing one and a half hours a time for a long time but this week I have gradually increased it to 1.45. This doesn't seem to have made a difference but I'm so scared of making him overtired as he can get hysterically hyper and at that point sleep is completely off the table.

[Lycheewaves]

 This sounds similar to a problem we had, in fact every time he had a cot party it was a sign we had to move his awake time out by 10 mins and reduce his naps accordingly. Does he have 3 naps at the moment? How long are they? Cot parties for us were definitely a sign that he was getting too much sleep in the day and not enough awake time, I totally know what you mean about being OT but I'm afraid you'll have to bite the bullet and see if extending will help. My LO also began to cut his catnap out at about 4.5 months so he may also be getting to that point too?

[Kfro]

He has been on three naps and a cat nap as his naps are so short and he was on an hour and a half a time. Pushing it to 1 hour 45 will help to eliminate the cat nap but his day is still quite long even with that increase in a time so I'm not sure what to do. Should I just go for it and up all his a times to eliminate the cat nap?

[Lycheewaves]

Suggest giving that a go, as it does seem he is getting too much day time sleep. Let us know how it goes!

[Martini~]

Can you post your routine Honey?
At 4mo there is a nasty sleep regression and a growth spurt so it may be a reason. We did go to 3:30 EASY when DS was about 12wo but I remember that spacing feeds really helped as he started to take bugger, fuller feeds instead of not eating anything on some feeds.

[Kfro]

It is a bit all over the place at the moment. He normally wakes at some point between 6 and 630 although at the moment it's a struggle to keep him down until 6. I then have been trying to get him up to his trim at 1 hour 40 and in bed after a quick wind down. He isn't settling by himself however and so I am having to do a lot of ssh pat until he goes to sleep. He then wakes up around 30-45 minutes later and I have to do it all over again. I try to keep him down for an hour and a half and then we are up to start the cycle again. I have been making him do the first two naps in his cot and then the third is in his pram as I don't have the energy to keep him down for a third nap by that time in the day. The third nap also tends to be the longest as he will sleep for a good amount of time in his pram and this helps me ensure that he won't be up too long before a bedtime of between 6 and 630. His feed timings vary but I don't ever feed him before 3 hours 15 ( unless he had a small previous feed and is obviously hungry) but I am trying to stretch them to 3 hours 30 where I can. I am completely lost with what he needs to be honest as thre is no consistency. He had an awful night last night just when I thought we were getting somewhere with not having a cat nap.

[Martini~]

Please remember that A time is from the moment eyes are open to the moment eyes are closed so settling also counts as A time. If he was doing longer naps, but now the naps have shorten - I would be tempted to keep longer A, especially in the morning. If you so around 2h of A, than he does a short nap I would be tempted to keep another 1:45-2:00 A. If after couple of days of first A long for 2h you still get UT naps, go for more.

I remember  that 3/4mo was a time when A times were galloping for us. Also daytime sleep went down dramatically from around 4.5h to around 3-3.5 in total. Any more than that and we had NW or EW.

[Kfro]

So I've increased his a time to 1 hour 55 and I am getting two good naps and a cat nap. But his night sleep is all over the place. We are still having a cot party around 4-6 although he does seem to be having a poo at some point during this time so not sure if this is keeping him up? Or if it indicates more a time is needed. I am hesitant to add more a time as we are having lots of night waking early on in the night (within three hours of bt). My understanding was that this meant ot? Is he just getting ot from the cot party and I need to push his a times in order to get rid of this and then the earlier night waking a will sort themselves? It's so confusing!!

[Martini~]

Hi Hon!

So can you please post your easy? How old is he now? Is he bf?

[Kfro]

He is formula fed and will be five months on Monday. Our easy for the past few days has been:

Get up at 630 (although he may not have slept much since cot party)
E 630
S 825-1025 (I usually have to wake him)
E  1030
S 1220-210 (I usually wake him as don't want him to get too much day sleep and not want a cat nap)
E 230
S 405-450
E 600
Bt 620 (has fallen asleep within ten minutes)

To be honest the days have been really nice and I've been really proud of how far he has come but it obviously isn't quite right as the nights are still off.

Thank you so much for your help