Help getting started

[clairebear79]

Hi all.

DD is 17 weeks (14 adjusted) & provided she is well rested,  is generally a lovely, smiley happy baby. Up til now I've been trying to follow her lead with feeds & napping in the hopes it'll settle down into some sort of pattern/routine. But we are still all over the place (no regular wakeup time or feed times), naps are mostly AP'd & mostly short (45mins max & often less). I feel like I need to get a decent routine going for all of us.

Our day currently goes something like this:

Wake: 7-7.30am. (but can be anything from 6- 8am, depending when she wakes for a feed & if I can resettle her! I let her sleep only because it makes it easier for me to get me/ds ready for school if she doesn't need a nap before we are due to leave.)

Eat:  7am, 11am, 3pm, 6.30pm (FF on demand & these are the times I aim for but it can vary by an hour either side depending on wakeup. Also she often refuses her morning feed if she eats at 4/5am.)

Bedtime: 7pm. We usually start bedtime routine at 6pm, last feed at 6.30 then we start trying to put her to sleep. She (mostly) goes down in her cot awake,  & settles eventually after repeated dummy plugging & sitting with a hand on her chest. It can often be 8pm before she is properly asleep

Night feeds: occasionally just once at 2-3am, but most often twice - at 12/1am and then again at around 5am. As above this second feed is affecting her morning bottle. Not sure what to do about that.

That is pretty much it as far as routine goes. Our big 'problem area' is daytime sleep. Mostly because I am finding it a real struggle to accomodate her sleep needs as well as look after/play with ds (4.5) & do the school run etc. How do other mums do it?!

Mornings are particularly difficult. I have to get us ready & can't stand over her, so often the first sign of tiredness I see/hear is fussing. She will only nap in my arms but I can't always drop everything to do that.  There is no point putting her in the cot for her morning nap as I'd have to get her back out for the school run.  She screams if I lay her in the pram (unless its moving).  She screams in the sling.  So I have to leave her fussing/crying until I am ready to leave & then she will sleep in the pram en route to school. By this time she is so overtired that she often does a really short nap of say 10-30mins.  Then I cuddle her to sleep to try & avoid overtiredness. This catnapping continues through the rest of the day & she fights it more as the day goes on.

 I can't carry on like this much longer as its not fair on her, she isn't getting any decent restorative sleep. I feel like I'm neglecting DS as I can't even have one to one time with him during her naptime, & I'm getting zero 'Y' time as I'm permanently stuck under a baby! 

I know I need to focus on teaching her to self settle (can she do this with a dummy?) but I'm at a loss as to how to do it or where to do her naps at the moment (pram or cot?), in order that she sleeps well but is still portable so I can get her out on school run/kids parties etc.  Sleep training all seems so futile when she only naps for 20 mins!

Since she catnaps so much I have no idea what A time she can actually do, so don't know where to start in establishing EASY.  I guess we should follow a 4hr routine since thats how often she feeds, but how does this work if she is only catnapping & not able to pull off a lovely 2hr nap.  What age do they start to naturally lengthen?  Hopefully soon! 

Wow that was lengthy!  Can anyone help me with where on earth to start? I followed BW with DS (4.5) when he was a baby but its all a distant memory! Tia.x

[jessmum46]

Hi Claire!  Great to see you back Your DS is 4.5yo already?? I was just reading some of your old threads recently about his horrible EWs and the 2-1 as my DS seems to be following in his shoes.....anyway I digress!  Congratulations on the birth of DD

What times do you need to be out to accommodate the school run?  I'm thinking its best to aim for a routine that avoids those times, or at least plans for catnaps at those times.  Then other one-off events (parties etc) you may just need to wing it a little more.....total predictability just not really possible with number two is it?

So if she is 17 weeks (you don't often need to adjust much if at all for babies born at 37 weeks+) you'd expect her A times to be in the 1h45-2h range just as a guide.  I think starting your day at the same time each day as far as possible would probably help establish a bit of a rhythm, and you may find that working towards relatively set naps is also useful as you just don't have the same degree of flexibility as with your first LO. 

I'm happy to help with a routine once I know your commitments

Does she have any naps in the cot at the moment?  Or are they all in arms/pram?

With sleep training you do need to be realistic about what you can achieve - it may be that the first nap of the day for now you plan to have as a pram nap and then you put your energy and focus into establishing a good second nap in the cot at home.  Whilst it's not a typical EASY routine, many mums with school run commitments find that a morning short nap/catnap, long lunchtime sleep and an evening catnap can work well and you can really concentrate on getting that good lunchtime nap whilst DS is at school.

An example might be something like:

WU 7
Nap 9-9.45
Nap 11.30-2 (this may be broken into two naps of say 11.30-12.15 and 2-2.45 if short naps are ongoing)
Nap between 4-5
Bed 6.30/7pm

But obviously tweaked to suit your needs and DDs.  What about that as a start?

[clairebear79]

Hiya Katherine yes time flies! Yes the 2-1 was a pretty rough time for us - he EW for such a long time & the sleep deprivation was torture, but we eventually got it sorted & he became a brilliant sleeper.

For school run we leave the house about 8.35am & I am usually back home by 9am.  Afternoon school run I leave house at 3.15pm, pick up ds 3.30pm & we usually go to the park so get home by about 4pm. Bedtime we aim for 7pm but doesn't often happen!!!

At the moment she takes all her naps in my arms or on the move in the pram/car seat. I can, at a push, get her down in the cot but it can take 30mins-1hr to settle her by which time she's way overtired & wakes after 10/20mins & so far hasn't seemed worth the hassle. I definitely do want to work on this (though prob not until after the school holidays!)

I'd be happy to try & follow more of a set nap routine & the one you suggested looks pretty good although I'm not convinced she can manage that A time yet.  I can see that sticking with pram in am & cot after lunch is a good idea so I'll def work on that. And I'll aim to get her up at a regular time.

Since I posted Ive been trying to watch her A times & 2hr gives us a short nap of 10-30mins. Today she did 1hr 45 & that got us a 30 min (overtired) nap too & no resettle. She seems to fuss around the 1hr 15 mark & is usually crying by 1.5hrs, certainly for her first A time of the day.

This seems short for her age but she didn't arrive of her own accord at 37 weeks - I had pre-eclampsia so she was evicted early. I would say she is developmentally & size wise more like a 3 month old.

[*Liz*]

Clare - I don't have time for the whole proper post ATM - but hey  .

My DS arrived early as well. I had preterm rupture of membranes and he was delivered at 36 weeks, but was pretty poorly after 10 days of membrane rupture. Thomas is 12lb and def developmentally like a 3 month old as well.

But his A times are pretty normal for age (my previous 2 were LSN mind so that may explain). I still get a lot of developmental short naps, but his A time is about 2 hrs. If I am doing the school runs he does pretty much what Katherine suggested  . That is out of necessity though I guess.

Anyway - just wanted to say hi 

[clairebear79]

<waves> Hi Liz!

Thanks for posting - its useful to hear from someone with a little one of roughly the same age. I remember seeing your posts about him being poorly when he was born - how is he doing now?

DD was fine & healthy at birth but didnt feed well so lost a lot of weight & quickly became jaundiced. We had a week's stay in the midwifery unit followed by a week in nicu to sort that, then once home she caught bronchiolitis. She was day & night confused til 6 weeks & screamed with colic for hours every evening until 12 weeks. Not been the easiest of starts (& this is why she's been AP'd to sleep) but these things are sent to try us eh?!   Anyway I digress....

WRT A times Thomas is doing great! Does he manage a full A after a short morning nap ok?

At a push DD can do a 2hr A later on in the day but not first thing in the morning. Well she can do it but it gives us an OT nap which kind of starts the day off on the wrong foot. I feel like I'm forever trying to chase away OT - & prob will be until she can manage that first A time ok. I guess thats the joy of having to fit in with older siblings routines.

I kept track of her day today but was a bit unusual as at dr's for her jabs. They kept us waiting 1.5hrs & dd was beside herself....

Wake: 6.45
Nap: 8.30-9.00 (OT nap in pram)
Nap: 11.30-12.00 (in arms in dr's waiting room)
Nap: 2.00 - 3.10 (in arms at home. Woke on transfer to pram ready for school run or she'd have slept longer)
Nap: 4.00-4.30 (in pram. She mostly stays awake on school run now)
Asleep: 6.45 (this is very unusual as it normally takes til 7.30/ 8pm to settle her

[clairebear79]

I'm really struggling to get these naps sorted. Yesterday we were out & she hardly napped at all, 45mins in am, about the same pm. Asleep 7.15pm & woke loads of times overnight. Not sure if OT or jabs related. Ended up in bed with me at 5am. Today so far has gone

Wake 7.25am
E: 7.30
A: 7.25 - 9.05 (1hr 40)
S: 9.05 - 9.35
A: 9.35 - 11.35 (2hrs **see below)
E: 11.25
S: 11.35-          (fellasleep on bottle)

Morning nap was in pram on school run. Tried but failed to resettle. She yawned at 9.45 so assumed it was an OT nap as still tired, so I tried every 15 mins since then to settle her & she  just screamed when I tried.  She was happy initially but quite shouty/crying after 45mins A.  Finally fell asleep in my arms during her feed after 2hrs A. So here I am stuck under the baby again! I wanted to try a cot nap today!

How do I get a routine to work if she wont sleep longer than 30 mins & fights resettling so much? And because of this E is clashing with S?

[jessmum46]

Sounds like OT causing the NWs - hugs, it's hard being up all night . I think you may have to just roll with the first OT nap for now until she can handle longer A times.  Also with DS at that age I just decided I wasn't resettling, simple as that and I can't tell you how much that actually took the pressure off.  We would just get on with the day. Surprisingly I had more success with a longer next nap if we did a near-normal A time so maybe you could try that? Even after a 30 min OT nap I can't imagine she would be ready to sleep until a good 1h30 or so, any less you run into more UT short naps and it compounds over the course of the day. 

Maybe try to break it all down into small goals you can achieve instead of hoping for IS, long naps etc all at once?  Focus on getting her to settle for one nap in the day.  If she settles, it's a win . Even if only for 10 mins .

[*Liz*]

He will do about 1h 45 - 2hrs after a short nap. So yeah pretty much a full A time. He seems to be like DS1 and will only sleep when very tired  .

I'm working on the 'asleep in arms' thing as well. I'm just shortening the time I hold before putting him down first. I remember doing this with Megan and it worked fine.