9 month old still waking at night, usually twice. Not sure where I'm going wrong

[Katy Doug]

My Dd is exactly 9 months old today and is still waking in the night..  Normally around 12.30am when I FF her then again around 5am. She happily will sit unaided but doesn't yet roll or crawl. She is on and off teething with her two top front teeth and one top incisor. She has her bottom two front teeth.

She was diagnosed with a CMPA at 4 months so we had a very difficult time before that with a very unhappy baby. She was Bf for 3 weeks then moved to varies different CM formulas and a soy formula before eventually being prescribed Neocate at 5 months. From that point on she completely changed to a happy, content baby.

I have followed a strict routine with her from very early on, in the the hope of having a baby that sleeps through    I dipped in and out of 'The Sensational Baby Sleep Plan' by Alison Scott Wright but because of DD's allergy that was never going to work.

 Her routine is -

7am - wake. (This seems to be moving more to 6am at the minute)

FF - 5/6oz

8am - Breakfast. Normally baby porridge mixed with oat milk and fruit puree. Finger food fruit

9.30- 11am  - nap in cot with comforter. Settles herself

11am - Ff 6oz

12.30pm - lunch. Savoury followed by pud

1.30- 3pm  - nap in cot with comforter. Settles herself

3pm - Ff anything between 4-6 oz

4.30pm - dinner. Savoury followed by pud

6.30pm - bath

6.45pm - Ff currently around 4-5oz but has been known to refuse or take 1-2oz.  I moved dinner from 5pm to 4.30pm as I thought she may still be full.

7pm - bed with comforter. Settles herself

12.30am - normally wakes and starts to cry. I have tried to leave her but the crying will escalate. So I FF her 6oz.  She is then happy/sleepy and goes straight back to sleep in cot.

5am - wakes and cries. Leave for a few minutes then go in. Put my hand on her chest and shhh her until she calms. Walk out. If she starts to cry again I will repeat.

6-7am - wake

So she's averaging about 23oz of formula a day and around 2 1/2 to 3 hrs of nap time

Activities we do are playing with lots of toys in the house. Going to the park, playing on the swings etc. she loves to watch other children. Walks.

Things to mention - for a while she went through a phase of only managing around 16-17oz of Formula a day. She has just in the last week started taking a good amount of formula again.

She has only just started to get eating solids and now is eating a good amount.

Can I mention that on a Monday and a Friday she goes to nursery. Will only sleep for a maximum of 30/40 mins. Two naps and refuses her bottles.

She does have a little bit of separation anxiety at the minute. Which would be correct for her age.

She also cries when unfamiliar men show her any attention. Including family members. Her christening is going to be interesting!!

I honestly thought that is my baby napped well through the day she would sleep well at night?!  . I do think she was probably hungry a month or so ago as her milk intake was low but not now?!

I'd really appreciate some help/advice as I'm exhausted. Do naps need moving, shortening or lengthening??

Completely lost and desperate to get a full night sleep.  Thank you!!

[katie80]

Hi there and welcome to BW!

The biggest thing that stands out to me is her first two A times are pretty short for her age and she's getting a lot of daytime sleep for her age.  I think those are likely the main reason for the 5am waking and her wake-up starting to get earlier.  Average A time for a 9mo old is around 3.5hr. She may not be all the way there yet, but I'd start adding 10-15min to her first two A times every few days and see if that doesn't help the early morning waking.  This may mean that you start waking her from her second nap to keep bedtime the same, or that bedtime gets a little later for a while until you start capping one of her naps. 

As for the 12:30am waking, that may be a combination of needing a routine change and a bit of a habit, if she was previously needing the feed.  You can try to gradually reduce the amount of formula you offer her at that time, adding it to a daytime bottle and then either using wake-to-sleep to get rid of the waking or eventually settling without a feed. 

Also, I'm not aware of what the 'Sensational Baby Sleep Plan' is, but a quick Google led me to believe there is some CIO/CC involved. I just want to make sure you know that BW does not condone either of these methods in any way, as they can lead to broken trust between a child and her parents. Tracy Hogg recommended to always respond to your baby's crying (an escalating cry, not a mantra/settling cry), not leaving her to cry for any amount of time.

Here are some great links to read through that will help clarify what I've mentioned above...
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old
How do I address habitual wakings?  (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

I hope that helps... please let us know what other questions you may have.

[Katy Doug]

Hi there and welcome to BW!

The biggest thing that stands out to me is her first two A times are pretty short for her age and she's getting a lot of daytime sleep for her age.  I think those are likely the main reason for the 5am waking and her wake-up starting to get earlier.  Average A time for a 9mo old is around 3.5hr. She may not be all the way there yet, but I'd start adding 10-15min to her first two A times every few days and see if that doesn't help the early morning waking.  This may mean that you start waking her from her second nap to keep bedtime the same, or that bedtime gets a little later for a while until you start capping one of her naps. 

As for the 12:30am waking, that may be a combination of needing a routine change and a bit of a habit, if she was previously needing the feed.  You can try to gradually reduce the amount of formula you offer her at that time, adding it to a daytime bottle and then either using wake-to-sleep to get rid of the waking or eventually settling without a feed. 

Also, I'm not aware of what the 'Sensational Baby Sleep Plan' is, but a quick Google led me to believe there is some CIO/CC involved. I just want to make sure you know that BW does not condone either of these methods in any way, as they can lead to broken trust between a child and her parents. Tracy Hogg recommended to always respond to your baby's crying (an escalating cry, not a mantra/settling cry), not leaving her to cry for any amount of time.

Here are some great links to read through that will help clarify what I've mentioned above...
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old
How do I address habitual wakings?  (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

I hope that helps... please let us know what other questions you may have.

Hi Katie80,

I really appreciate your reply, thank you so much.  I feel really lost with my DD's night wakings now, so its great to have some helpful advice.  I haven't every done CC and when I asked for advice with my HV she handed me a leaflet on it and I was shocked that that was her answer!     I hoped we could sit down and talk through her routine, nevermind 

She has now started adding in a 2am waking too  and as with the 5am waking, I go in, put my hand on her chest and gently shhh.  Once she is calm I leave the room and repeat if needed.  This morning it was 3 times.  I would say she was fussing rather than crying at 2am.  Should I leave her until it becomes an escalating cry? (my neighbours told me they could hear her one night when she was upset with teething, so I am now leaping out of bed when I hear her making any noise! ) I'm hoping to receive the BW book today which I ordered a couple of days ago, so at the minute, I'm unfamiliar with Tracey's method but will look at your helpful links below, thank you. 

Naps -

How many hours of daytime napping should she do now?  I had thought it was 3 hours but do I have this wrong?

She always shows signs of being ready for her naps with eye rubbing, glazing over or getting fractious so that is why I have been putting her down at those times.  Is that just because she is used to naps at that time and do I have to expect her to be a little OT while I push the naps back?  I worry she'll get OT and not nap well.

Just trying to work out what her routine should be after gradually increasing her A time?  Ideally I'd love to keep her bedtime (lights out) at 7pm, she always seems ready for it then.

Could you help me with how her routine should look as I get a little stuck after going down for her first nap?

7am  wake

10.30am  nap

Approx. how long should this nap be? 

With the night feeding, I did try reducing the amount I gave her but when I put her back into her cot she got really upset.  I was worried she was still hungry?!  but I wonder if it was teething too.  I could try this step again and see what happens.  I may struggle with adding the extra formula to her daytime bottles as she has never been a guzzler of her milk.  She rarely finishes a 6oz bottle.  When she has had a good day of eating and drinking her formula I hope that she will sleep better but it doesn't seem to help?  I also wonder that this special Neocate forumla she is on is too thin and not filling?  My DH is convinced she is still hungry so I have a bit of a battle on my hands there too    I shall read the link on wake-to-sleep and settling without a feed.

Thanks so much in advance Katie80 

[Katy Doug]

Hi there and welcome to BW!

The biggest thing that stands out to me is her first two A times are pretty short for her age and she's getting a lot of daytime sleep for her age.  I think those are likely the main reason for the 5am waking and her wake-up starting to get earlier.  Average A time for a 9mo old is around 3.5hr. She may not be all the way there yet, but I'd start adding 10-15min to her first two A times every few days and see if that doesn't help the early morning waking.  This may mean that you start waking her from her second nap to keep bedtime the same, or that bedtime gets a little later for a while until you start capping one of her naps. 

As for the 12:30am waking, that may be a combination of needing a routine change and a bit of a habit, if she was previously needing the feed.  You can try to gradually reduce the amount of formula you offer her at that time, adding it to a daytime bottle and then either using wake-to-sleep to get rid of the waking or eventually settling without a feed. 

Also, I'm not aware of what the 'Sensational Baby Sleep Plan' is, but a quick Google led me to believe there is some CIO/CC involved. I just want to make sure you know that BW does not condone either of these methods in any way, as they can lead to broken trust between a child and her parents. Tracy Hogg recommended to always respond to your baby's crying (an escalating cry, not a mantra/settling cry), not leaving her to cry for any amount of time.

Here are some great links to read through that will help clarify what I've mentioned above...
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old
How do I address habitual wakings?  (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

I hope that helps... please let us know what other questions you may have.

Hi Katie80,

I really appreciate your reply, thank you so much.  I feel really lost with my DD's night wakings now, so its great to have some helpful advice.  I haven't every done CC and when I asked for advice with my HV she handed me a leaflet on it and I was shocked that that was her answer!     I hoped we could sit down and talk through her routine, nevermind 

She has now started adding in a 2am waking too  and as with the 5am waking, I go in, put my hand on her chest and gently shhh.  Once she is calm I leave the room and repeat if needed.  This morning it was 3 times.  I would say she was fussing rather than crying at 2am.  Should I leave her until it becomes an escalating cry? (my neighbours told me they could hear her one night when she was upset with teething, so I am now leaping out of bed when I hear her making any noise! ) I'm hoping to receive the BW book today which I ordered a couple of days ago, so at the minute, I'm unfamiliar with Tracey's method but will look at your helpful links below, thank you. 

Naps -

How many hours of daytime napping should she do now?  I had thought it was 3 hours but do I have this wrong?

She always shows signs of being ready for her naps with eye rubbing, glazing over or getting fractious so that is why I have been putting her down at those times.  Is that just because she is used to naps at that time and do I have to expect her to be a little OT while I push the naps back?  I worry she'll get OT and not nap well.

Just trying to work out what her routine should be after gradually increasing her A time?  Ideally I'd love to keep her bedtime (lights out) at 7pm, she always seems ready for it then.

Could you help me with how her routine should look as I get a little stuck after going down for her first nap?

7am  wake

10.30am  nap

Approx. how long should this nap be? 

With the night feeding, I did try reducing the amount I gave her but when I put her back into her cot she got really upset.  I was worried she was still hungry?!  but I wonder if it was teething too.  I could try this step again and see what happens.  I may struggle with adding the extra formula to her daytime bottles as she has never been a guzzler of her milk.  She rarely finishes a 6oz bottle.  When she has had a good day of eating and drinking her formula I hope that she will sleep better but it doesn't seem to help?  I also wonder that this special Neocate forumla she is on is too thin and not filling?  My DH is convinced she is still hungry so I have a bit of a battle on my hands there too    I shall read the link on wake-to-sleep and settling without a feed.

Thanks so much in advance Katie80 

Katie80, apologies!!! I have just realised that you had added the link 'chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months'  sorry a very overtired mummy today this is really helpful.  Thank you : )

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) I know what it's like to be so tired.

I'm sorry your HV wasn't more helpful. Unfortunately, CC/CIO seem to be recommended by lots of health professionals. I don't know why as there are studies that show they can cause undue stress and there are other techniques that work better!

As for waiting for an escalating cry, that would be ideal as some babies do moan/fuss/mantra cry at different parts of their sleep cycle or when they wake and will go back to sleep. However, in real life with neighbors that can hear, that's a little more difficult. I guess you need to make that call on what best suits you all. I hope your neighbors weren't complaining/rude to you, as it's normal for babies to cry at times during the night!

WRT naps, 3hr of daytime sleep might be just fine for her still, we'll have to see. But, if you're wanting to keep BT at 7pm, it may need to be a little less. Often around 9-10mo, LOs still sleeping two solid naps will either lengthen their day or start waking earlier, as she's doing.

She may be used to sleeping at those times and she probably is actually tired. But, if you kept going with those cues, she'll just make up for the sleep she's losing at night, yk? I would just push her very gradually to prevent OT (even by 5-10min if you think she's really tired), until you get to a higher A time that will hopefully drive out the NWs. You may not even get to 3.5hr, she may only need 3. You'll just have to try it and see.

A routine might look like this...
WU 7am
Nap 1 10-11:30am
Nap 2 2:30-4pm
BT 7/7:30pm

Or, like this...
WU 7am
Nap 1 10:30-12pm
Nap 2 3-4pm
BT 7pm

You'll have to see how changing her day affects BT, as currently she has a longer A time before bed. She may need the later BT, or a capped nap in order to keep the 7pm BT.

As for her being hungry at night, I don't know. Maybe it's worth keeping that feed and just seeing if you can eliminate the other NWs for now with routine. It seems that if she still wakes after a good day of eating that it's likely not hunger, though. I know Neocate is different, but I do still think it's filling. I was on a thread recently where a mom had that exact same concern and another mama with reflux/intolerance experience assured her it was fine. I'll go see if I can find that for you.

Let me know what you think!

[Katy Doug]

(((Hugs))) I know what it's like to be so tired.

I'm sorry your HV wasn't more helpful. Unfortunately, CC/CIO seem to be recommended by lots of health professionals. I don't know why as there are studies that show they can cause undue stress and there are other techniques that work better!

As for waiting for an escalating cry, that would be ideal as some babies do moan/fuss/mantra cry at different parts of their sleep cycle or when they wake and will go back to sleep. However, in real life with neighbors that can hear, that's a little more difficult. I guess you need to make that call on what best suits you all. I hope your neighbors weren't complaining/rude to you, as it's normal for babies to cry at times during the night!

WRT naps, 3hr of daytime sleep might be just fine for her still, we'll have to see. But, if you're wanting to keep BT at 7pm, it may need to be a little less. Often around 9-10mo, LOs still sleeping two solid naps will either lengthen their day or start waking earlier, as she's doing.

She may be used to sleeping at those times and she probably is actually tired. But, if you kept going with those cues, she'll just make up for the sleep she's losing at night, yk? I would just push her very gradually to prevent OT (even by 5-10min if you think she's really tired), until you get to a higher A time that will hopefully drive out the NWs. You may not even get to 3.5hr, she may only need 3. You'll just have to try it and see.

A routine might look like this...
WU 7am
Nap 1 10-11:30am
Nap 2 2:30-4pm
BT 7/7:30pm

Or, like this...
WU 7am
Nap 1 10:30-12pm
Nap 2 3-4pm
BT 7pm

You'll have to see how changing her day affects BT, as currently she has a longer A time before bed. She may need the later BT, or a capped nap in order to keep the 7pm BT.

As for her being hungry at night, I don't know. Maybe it's worth keeping that feed and just seeing if you can eliminate the other NWs for now with routine. It seems that if she still wakes after a good day of eating that it's likely not hunger, though. I know Neocate is different, but I do still think it's filling. I was on a thread recently where a mom had that exact same concern and another mama with reflux/intolerance experience assured her it was fine. I'll go see if I can find that for you.

Let me know what you think!

Hi Katie80,

Thanks again for all your helpful advice.  I think I may have found the reason for her being so unsettled at night - chicken pox   nursery call on Friday to ask me to go and collect her as some spots had started to appear and there has been chicken pox going round.  I took her straight to the doctors and he seemed to think it wasn't?!?  but today the spots that were there yesterday are blistering and she is continuing to get more.  Poor little thing.  She is amazingly in good spirits though.  You wouldn't be able to tell if not for the odd spot on her face.  I'm going back to the doctors on Monday for a second opinion as I'm sure it is!! 

Because she has been so happy today I have pushed her A time to see what happens tonight.  This is what I did -

WU 6.30am

Nap 1  9.30 - 10.45am

Nap 2  2 - 3.15pm

BT 7pm

She mantra cried for 5 minutes which is a little unusual for her at BT and I wondered if she needed to be burped again.  Went in picked her up, couldn't get one, put her back down and she settled straight away.  I think she was OT.  So we'll see what tonight brings.

The clocks change tonight so it may also help with early waking.  We shall see.  Not sure how it will affect her tomorrow with naps and bedtime?

Thanks for looking into the Neocate for me : )

[katie80]

Oh no, poor little thing... I hope she is doing better. How strange the doctor dismissed it, hope you get better support today!

How are things going routine-wise? Any changes in the NWs?

As far as the clock change goes, you can keep the later routine, or you can gradually move your way back to a wake-up and nap time that works best for you.

Here is the Neocate discussion I was talking about (sorry it took me so long to post! ): Re: He never seems to completely konk out!

[Katy Doug]

Oh no, poor little thing... I hope she is doing better. How strange the doctor dismissed it, hope you get better support today!

How are things going routine-wise? Any changes in the NWs?

As far as the clock change goes, you can keep the later routine, or you can gradually move your way back to a wake-up and nap time that works best for you.

Here is the Neocate discussion I was talking about (sorry it took me so long to post! ): Re: He never seems to completely konk out!

She's not been great the last two nights, so its all gone out the window a bit.  Went back to docs yesterday and he confirmed it was chicken pox.  I'm hoping yesterday and today will be the worst of it and she will be on the mend tomorrow.

Thank you for sending me the neocate link, really good to see that.

We'll get back on it when she's feeling better :-)

[katie80]

Sounds good... hope she's better soon!

[Katy Doug]

Hi Katie80,

I wondered if you could give me some advice on feeding and bottles after her 2nd nap of the day, when I get that to end around 4pm.  I struggle to get my DD to take a good amount of her bedtime bottle.  A good day is about 5oz.  Sometimes she will refuse it.  I moved her dinner from 5pm back to 4.30pm to see if that would help her take more and I do think it helped a little but with the new routine (when we do get there) I'm just wondering how to space out her bottles and dinner?  If i give her a bottle when she wakes at 4pm, I guess I would then have to go for dinner at 5pm to make sure she has a good amount of her bedtime bottle at 7pm?  I get confused with the bottle after her 2nd nap because i hear that some people drop this but I feel she still needs this to make sure she takes enough formula through the day.

Would love your thoughts? 

[katie80]

A lot of times at this age with the longer A times, moms will move the third milk feed to before the second nap and then offer solids/dinner after the nap.  This usually helps LOs take more at the BT feed.  Do you think that might work?

You could also always ask on the Bottle Feeding board and get other opinions... Bottle Feeding

[Katy Doug]

Thanks Katie80    Although my DD went through a good patch of drinking lots of milk, we've reverted back to her snacking on her bottles.  I could try that bottle just before her 2nd nap but I'm not sure she'd take it.  I'll give it a go and ask on the bottle feeding forum too

[katie80]

Maybe she went through a GS and now isn't needing quite so much.   I'm guessing if you can get rid of those NFs, she'll drink the daytime ones better.