Twins - night time habit waking, breast feeding to sleep

[Bel]

Hi Babywhisperers,

I have been happily following Tracy's advice since my first baby was born five years ago. I since had a second child and now almost six months ago, twins (25/09/14).

Recently I have slipped into the '2am/5am feeding back to sleep' trap with the babies. It started with their growth spurt when they turned 4 months.
With my other two I would have gently extended the times or just make them go to sleep again with shush patting. With twins, it is all a bit more tricky when there is a problem. When one cries the other is often woken up and I can't console two crying babies at the same time.
I can't ask DH for help as he is looking after the night wakes of the my elder two (nightmares for the five year old, overtiredness for three year old occasional napper...) and his job is quite demanding.
Does anybody know of a good trick how I can get the twins back to sleep on my own? Without feeding or rocking them.
They are on a four hour EASY routine. Tweaked and diverted here and there due to the nature of a large family and its activities (moderate ones, I'm not into lots of extra curricular stuff).

On an ordinary day it looks like this:
7am breast feed (often they have been awake a bit earlier)
9am back asleep (wind down starts from 8.15 and they settle by themselves between 8.30am and 9am)
11am breast feed (one might have been awake for a while, today since 10am, but usually they hit the mark with 15 minutes either side)
12.30 onwards wind down/settling, back to sleep by 1pm
3pm breast feed
next nap is always tricky to catch, today they didn't settle until 6pm or I put them down at 4pm because they would have been up for a very long time. Result they are usually overtired when they go to bed at 7pm.
9.30pm overtired wake which had become my early dream feed, but tonight I didn't respond and they settled by themselves.
Usually dream feed between 10 and 11.15pm (I feed them individually so sometimes I go over 11pm).
In the night I have started to feed on demand (not in tandem) as I wanted to see if one was going to sleep through. But I ended up feeding every hour to two hours alternating babies. I have started to shush them when they wake after 2am and once in a while that has worked. But when they both cry I resort to feeding.
I have also moved them into separate cots (next to each other) and this is cutting out waking by whacking.
I don't think they need solids yet, although they take a proper feed each time they wake at night, they don't seem to be terribly hungry (they surely aren't at 7am!). It seems that they can't put themselves back to sleep at night without being fed.

Any suggestions how I can get them to sleep through by myself?

Another question on 'crying it out':
As circumstances have it (big family with lots of needs), they tend to be left to cry more often and longer than I would have my other two allowed to do. When I get to watch them through a gap in the door, I find they often seem to be very tired while crying with eyes shut or trying to suck on their hand and get upset when they poke their face. I usually leave them while I'm peeping and only go in when the cry sounds desperate. Does that count as 'letting them cry it out'? I hope not... I have been looking into the Dunstan theory of listening to cries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyL0q-u-9Ts . Identifying the 'ow' cry as the one that indicates tiredness has let me to leave them to settle by themselves when I hear it.
When do you think is the moment we should actually enter the room?

I am sorry but I am very tired and I hope this is not too wordy or confusing... Off to do that dream feed now!

Thanks for any suggestion,
Bel

[Martini~]

Hi Hon! I am very sorry but definitely no BTDT experience with twins so I am bumping for you and hope someone else could help.

My only comments is that around 6mo A times are rather closer to 3h. i know with twins who were probably preemies,  you can work on shorter A, but they seem to get plenty of sleep during day and it may reinforce NW.

Second point is that I would be very concern about CIO. I know it's hard with couple of babies at home, but leaving them to cry may back fire in a later stage as you will loose their trust. At BW we do not support any CIO/CC solutions. It doesn't mean that we do not let crying, but we are against letting them cry alone. We also advise to answer their cry by how it sounds not time they are crying. And regarding types of cry, I would definitely answer OT cries, leaving them only if you are sure it's mantra cry.

Meantime, I know there is an active thread for multiple kids mammas regarding sleep & EASY. Maybe you would consider posting there for some additional support?
Sleep and EASY support for twins and multiples

[Bel]

Thanks for your support and clarifying crying thoughts. Can I just mention that when I go in to hold one crying baby, the other gets really upset and cries even more. When the first baby is calm I swap and she gets really upset for having been put down and she has to wait while her sister gets a turn. I could just focus on one baby at a time until it's asleep but then the other would be left to cry. It seems to aggravate stress levels in them (and me). I find singing to calm them or a little joke to cheer them up very effective and then leave the room. Has anybody found alternatives like this?

Also extending their A time is a good thought... I am a bit quick to respond to tired queues for fear of letting them get overtired.
Last night was a slight improvement. I got T2 to fall asleep again at midnight by shushing (was that ok or cio?). At 2.30am they were both crying and I gave them a breast feed. Then one of them made noises at 6.15am which I thought was T2 but by 6.30 T1 was awake. I held her until 6.45 and then gave her the morning feed and T2 woke at 7am on the dot and had her feed then.
T1 was of course very tired by 7.45 and I stretched her until 8am (I will work on A times and extend them). She was asleep by 8.15 and T2 went to bed at 8.30 and pretty much fell asleep right away. It's 10.30 now, the rubbish collection and the neighbour's dog made a racket, but they seem to be still asleep. Fingers crossed!

Why I think this forum is great are the little tips like extending A time... they always worked for me. Thank you! I will try it out. :-)

[Martini~]

Oh Honey, I am sorry that you have this kind of dilemma as it just has to be hard when it's only one YOU, two others running around and two little babies needing both you at the same time.

Regarding CIO, the main point is to understand that's it's not letting then cry so bad, but leaving them alone with it. So crying is a baby trying to say something to you in his/her own way. You cannot address every single cry with cuddle/rocking/holding in arms as it will let them play on you later:). But it doesn't mean that there is no alternative. So you can shhh to them, sing, speak, touch them with your hand. If you hold one of your twins, just speak to another or keep your hand on him/her?

I would also advise you to cap their naps at 2h maks as they seem to favour day sleep as even on short A they sleep so well:)!

[*Liz*]

Do you think that is a mantra cry though? If they cry and settle quite quickly?? Tracy certainly describes that and advises to listen and give the baby space to settle if that is the case. 'Rushing in' isn't going to help either.

I also think it's inevitable that subsequent children do have to wait more.... And that does mean more cries. I have 3 children, and if my baby wakes after being put to bed he may have to cry for a couple of minutes because I am brushing someone else's teeth, or reading a quick story. The older children do deserve mama's bedtime kiss as well  . I don't see it as CIO, I see it as my baby shouting for me, and having to wait a minute or two. It isn't CIO because if he really needed me first I would go, and I always go within minutes.

But it may be a mantra  .

[*Liz*]

We do have some other twin mamas on here... Have you found the EASY support thread?? That's a great place to see how others handle it.

[Martini~]

Hi Liz, thanks for your support! Definitely some advice from mama having more than 1 kid is valuable ). I have posted the link to the support thread above, so if she wants she can always pop in. I am quite sure she will have a warm welcome there:)!

[Bel]

Thanks everyone. I've posted on the twin board. Extending their A time has already made a world of difference. I knew I'd get an answer from lovely mamas!
:-)
Bel

[Bel]

Hi guys,
I'm back :-(
We are struggling with teeth coming through. I thought I'd just ride it out but the girls (now six months old) are up every 2-2 1/2 hours. As luck would have they wake an hour apart from each other which means I am up every hour. I've been giving meds but it makes no difference, so in my desperation to get some sleep I give them a breast feed. Their day routines are totally out if sync and I don't remember half the time who woke when. Luckily I seem to remember their feeding times roughly, so they are getting enough milk in the day. They've definitely gained a lot of weight recently.
I've started solids this week in the way that they get to suck on some piece of fruit once a day. So just for flavour so far.
Anyway, has anybody had experience with meds not working when teething? Do you think the feeding prop can cause wake ups every two hours? I've never been in such a vicious circle with the other two... and I'm still hoping that it's just a phase and will just pass.
Any thoughts or suggestions welcome.
Bel