I'm unsure can someone take a look?

[babyrose]

hi, lewis and Leo are 21 weeks old (11wks corrected) and I'm trying to workout A times and sleep. They seem to want to sleep a lot and can only really handle 1 hr but with Leo he really cannot go past this as he wakes up after 45 mins I think and can't settle.
I'm unsure how long sleep to let them have during the day and how to work things out with their feeds.
This was what happened yesterday:

Lewis.                                 
7am awake
7:15 feed 4oz
8:00 sleep (2hrs)
11 eat 4oz
11:30 sleep 1.5 then fell asleep in the bouncer 2-2:30
15:00 eat 6oz
15:30 sleep 2.5
19:00 eat 6oz
19:30 bed

3:45 feed 5oz

Leo
06:45 awake
07:00 feed 6oz
07:30 sleep 2.5
11:00 eat 4oz
11:45 1hr 15 then fell asleep 14-14:30
15:30 eat 4.5oz
16:00 sleep 2 hrs
18:45 eat 6oz
19:30 sleep

Bit unsettled at 12 re plugged dummy. 3:45 feed 5oz

Thanks nicola

[Buttonbobs]

Hi Nicola,

I think you're right that they both seem to have quite short A time needs for their ages (even their adjusted ages) but they do seem to be sleeping well on those A times.

How are they sleeping at night? It seems quite good from your post, is this always the case? My view was always if aleep was going well at night then the day must be going ok and I wouldn't worry even if it seemed a bit unorthodox.

With the feeds, are both babies gaining weight nicely now?

At this age I'd probably let an LO sleep for up to 2 hours per nap, anything over 1.5 is restorative, so if you were worried about ensuring they were getting feeds at a particular time then I wouldn't worry about waking them to feed if they've slept for more than 1.5 hours.

It might just be that they've had so much to cope with and lots of growing still left to do, so they're sleeping a lot to catch up.

What do you think?

[babyrose]

Hi Naomi, thanks for replying.

They sleep pretty well at night and always between 3&4 taking anywhere between 4&7oz. Which I'm guessing is hunger? But then again if it's the same time at night then possibly something else?

Yes both boys are gaining lots of weight nicely, can't get over the size of them now from when they were born. Lewis is 10lb 7 and Leo 9lb 14. Yes I agree about catching up and perhaps that's why they want to sleep so much.

When it comes to the afternoon nap should their be a time when I should get them up by to preserve b/time? And should their day be 12 hrs or longer/shorter?

[Buttonbobs]

as they're gaining weight so well then I think probably whatever is happening now is ok. I would expect one night feed still at this stage so no problem feeding them when they wake at night.

You mentioned in your first post that Leo was waking at 45 mins with a longer A time, I can't see this on your EAS. Did you mean that he is stirring at 45? If so, it might be that he actually needs a slightly longer A time. This may not be an immediate need for longer A but keep an eye on it as he may need a stretch sooner rather than later.

As for length of day, with this much daytime sleep and reasonable nights, I think 11hours ish at night is fine. If they start to struggle with nights then might be the time to consider stretching A's and capping one of those naps.

[babyrose]

whenever I put Leo down yesterday it was 1.5 of A time it was like he just couldn't get into a deep sleep whenever his dummy fell out he screamed the house down for it. After he got up he only managed a  short A time after that til bed. In the morning they both sleep very well, then as the day goes on Leo just gets worse.

I will keep an eye on how things go with their A times and night time sleep.

[Buttonbobs]

When you mention Leo's sleep getting worse through the day, is his very unsettled then? The EAS you posted showed a good long 2 hour nap at the end of the day, so this looks quite good really. Unless he was waking throughout?

[babyrose]

Yes he woke all the way through his nap and very upset by the end of it. The EAS I posted was fri. I will post give you what happend yesterday maybe that will help.

[Buttonbobs]

Yes that would be good if you can post as you go then we can have a look at what you're actually dealing with and might be able to help more. They do currently seem fairly high sleep needs, even for their adjusted ages, but if they are catching up this could change once they are up to their natural weight and any growth spurt is over. X

[babyrose]

Leo
7:30 wu & feed (5oz)
08:50 sleep 1hr 45
11:45 feed (5oz)
12:00 sleep 3hrs
15:50 feed (7oz)
16:30 sleep 1.5hrs very unsettled cried but still sleeping awake at 17:50
19:15 feed (5oz)
19:30 bed

3am feed

I'm sure things will change when they get to their normal weight but they are super sleepy babies!

Lewis
7:30 wu& feed (5oz)
09:00 -10:30 sleep awake from 10:30 til 11 then back to sleep til 12  (2.5hrs)
12:15 feed (7oz)
12:45 sleep 2hrs 15
16:15 feed (7oz)
16:30 sleep 1.5hrs
19:15 feed (4oz)
19:30 sleep

3am feed

[babyrose]

I've just put Leo and Lewis down for their nap at 14:10 Leo wakes up but his dummy had fallen out. I'm wondering if this is becoming an issue.

Leo ( EAS today so far)
06:40 wu
06:50 feed (4oz)
07:30 sleep ( I put Leo back down while I fed Lewis) Leo slept for 3hrs 20
11:30 feed
12:10 sleep 50 mins
14:10 sleep 35 mins and he woke Lewis up

That's them both up

[creations]

Hi Nicola

Sorry I don't have any experience with prem babies or with twins but looking through the info it looks to me like they are sleeping the higher end of average sleep needs (roughly 17-18hrs per 24hr) would you agree?  It doesn't seem too much to me.
I did notice some of the A times are 1hr 30 and 1hr 45 which is average for around 3 - 4 months, it looks like their first A is shorter but this is quite common amongst LOs anyway to have a shorter first A.

I did notice some of their day time E times are 5hr+ which may be too far apart for their adjusted age, I'd normally expect to see E times going up to 5hr or beyond when solids are introduced around 6 months.  Most LOs at their adjusted age are still on 3hr E.  I think I would wake them to maintain a 4hrly E for these reasons:
- You need to know where you are up to in the end really, so you (and the LOs know what to expect) otherwise with E at varying times and naps or different lengths through the day I would think it is hard to know what A to give next or to just keep on top of the day
- I know they are gaining weight well but I think they are still a bit young to be moving to beyond a 4hr E
- it may help to avoid the random short nap which came in the EASY you posted above following a super long 3hr+ nap
- it may help them to get more calories in during the day and possibly move towards 1 NF

What do you think?

I would not consider the paci as a problem at this age at all. Using a paci has shown to reduce risk of SIDS so although you might find yourself replugging, if they find comfort in it and it has its benefits, I would just continue with it.  If you do choose to drop the paci please seek further information, it's a longtime back but I believe I read going cold turkey on a paci to be a SIDS risk increase.  Whatever you choose to do you want to be informed before making decision.
xx

[babyrose]

Hi. Yes I agree with what yo are saying that they are higher sleep and also that the first A time is shorter but I feel like they are waking but still feeling like they arent getting enough night sleep and trying to make up for it. This morning Leo wanted fed at 6, but he was still sleeping, I tried replugging his dummy a few times but he was hungry and is back in his cot (07:15)  Lewis hasn't moved since his feed at 3. We do normally tend to feed every 4 but sometimes if things happen or I'm on my own it doesn't tend to workout that way.

I'm trying to get into some kind of routine but unsure of when and where to put feeds and naps etc.when ayden started bw 6 months.

With the dummy it just seemed every time we went to see what was wrong he wanted the dummy. But now every time we put Leo down he isn't happy with before he didn't bother at all.

[Buttonbobs]

If you feel that the night sleep isn't enough and this early naps are sort of them tacking on to finish their night sleep then the way out of that is to slowly extend that first A time. It may be that they do need a little longer, you can a,ways extend the A time really slowly (say 10 mins at a time) and move it longer every three to five days to allow the adjustment. It will be tricky to begin with as you override their body clock's desire to sleep so early. In the long run if it helps to lengthen their night sleep it may be worth a try.

I aways think it is well worth following your mummy instinct, you know best, even if we can help you to spot the wood amongst the trees

[Buttonbobs]

P.s. I agree with creations that you should stick to maximum 4 hourly feeds until they are bigger and over this apparent growth spurt

[babyrose]

Thanks, yes I think they are trying to catch up on their nights sleep in  that first nap hopefully things will look a bit clearer soon. We had a slightly better day with Leo today and we stuck pretty much to fours give or take 10 mins, so we will see what tonight brings us.

Lewis seems to be doing well, after Leo woke during the night Lewis didn't budge, maybe he would have went a bit longer if I never fed him but I didn't really want to leave him and then being woke an hour later!

I will post today's EAS Tom going to (try) and get some sleep.