Lack of routine for 6 month old causing problems :(

[AmieMeslohi]

Hello.
I am really struggling with my 6month LG - I have been trying Sssh/Pat for a week in an attempt to get her to nap in the day for longer than 30mins,so far no improvement but I know it's early days and will continue with it. A kind lady mentioned in a response to my plea that her lack of napping May be down to her routine I was wondering if someone in this forum could help me address it.

Amber was EBF up until 5 months and was a very erratic feeder, so we didn't have much of a routine at all. She has now been on formula for over a month and I have been trying to implement a routine but it seems to change daily depending on how she sleeps at night and thus what time she wakes up along with what naps she manages to do. In fact on reflection the only fixed thing is her feeding time and bedtime routine.

Here is what we have been following for the last month;

Feed - 7am 6oz/7oz bottle
Activity
Nap no1 - 1.5hrs from wake up time (usually 20-30mins) Or when she shows tired signs

Feed - 11am 7oz bottle
Activity
Nap no.2 - 2hrs from wake up of last nap (usually 30mins)

Feed - 3pm 7oz bottle
Activity
Nap no.3 - 3.30/4pm (Usually 30mins but if sleeps on me will sleep for 1 hour)

Activity - 4.30/5pm Playtime with daddy
Bath - 5.30pm
Feed and bed - 6pm 8oz bottle
Night feed - Anytime between 10.30pm and 12.30pm (was taking an 8oz bottle but in last week has only been taking 4/5oz)
Will wake approx 4hours after last feed and struggles to settle,due to pure exhaustion I end up bringing her in with me which isn't something I wanted to do and must confuse her.

We have also just started weaning in the last few weeks but so far not very successful - she's not a huge fan of the food! But I have been giving her breakfast approx 8am and lunch approx 12pm.
Any help you guys can provide would be hugely appreciated-I feel like we are in a bit of a vicious cycle now and desperately want to break for both our sakes.
I'm not sure if this makes a difference but she also has a dummy when going to sleep but spits it out once asleep - however at night she will temporarily awaken looking for the dummy and will settle back down once it is put back in.
Thank you x

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there

I do think this could well be an issue with routine and so very happy to help you here on EASY. I'm sorry to ask more questions, I hope this extra information will enable us to help a bit more.

30 min naps are often a sign that the LO is overtired (OT) and they wake up suddenly often at this 30 min point. When she does wake after 30 mins what is her mood? Does she wake crying or happy? Do you use shh/pat or anything else to try and get her back to sleep?

After a short nap (anything less than 1 hr 30mins) we would usually recommend trying a shorter A time so the LO doesn't get more and more OT during the day. So for instance after that first short nap, maybe try an A time of one hour to see if you can get the second nap to be any longer.

An average A time for a six month old would be approximately 2-2.5 hours.

What are A times and how do they fit into the EASY plan?

So as you can see that first 1.5 hour A time might be too short. I know that we might think this would lead to an undertired (UT) nap it might be that she has built up OT over time so still naps 30 mins even though she needs a longer A time.

This is what we call a UT/OT loop and I think it might be the case, you have recognised this as you've described a viscous cycle. Counter intuitively then I'm going to suggest that you try for a later first nap and see where that gets you. Would you be able to put her down for her first nap around 9/9.30 assuming a 7am WU? At this age tired signs can become a bit more unreliable, as yawns can be boredom or a need for a change of scene, rather than just tiredness.

There are some other things we can try but I think this might be a good start. Let me know what you think

[AmieMeslohi]

Hello

Everything that you have said makes a lot of sense - very grateful for your input

When she wakes after 30mins she always wakes distressed and upset. I always try to get her back to sleep when she wakes,I've been sitting in the nursery while she sleep watching for first signs of waking and use the Sssh/pat to try and get her back to sleep. Sometimes it's successful and she might do another 20mins and other times she's bolt awake and no amount of Sshing is going to get her back to sleep! I have also been using this method for night wakenings.

Yes very happy to try the longer A time in the morning -we will give it a go tomorrow for definite. I will let you know how we get on
Do you think that if we manage to sort out her routine and the naps that this in turn could help with the nighttime? She was doing 6-7 hours from bedtime not so long ago so I know she's capable of it!
Thanks again x

[Buttonbobs]

It's great that you've been consistent in using shh/pat, this will make things easier when the routine settles.

It does sound like things should really change when you get the day routine settled, they say that sleep begets sleep, often nights going bad are a sign a routine needs changing, so once things are sorted I would hope that he sleeps through again

[outofherdepth]

Sorry no advice but just stopping by to say that your lg's routine looks v similar to my lg's at the moment, except being ebf on demand the feeding isn't as scheduled as yours. My lg is 5months (actually a few days shy of 5m) and her daytime naps are horrendous - I feel like I spend the whole day trying to get her to sleep  Like the advice you received, someone kindly advised me to lengthen my lg's first awake time..It really goes against my instincts because she shows all her tired signs by 1.5 hrs after wake up, but 2 days of 3x20/30 minute naps and I'm willing to try anything! So tomorrow we'll see.

I am also on day 3 of pupd and nights are massively improved (she slept 8 hrs straight last night, my boobs were like rocks when she finally woke for a feed  )... but despite being a 'gentler' sleep training method, it has involved more crying than I expected  -from both of us - and is really tough. I'm only sticking with it so that the last few days haven't been in vain. So if you can sort your lg's sleep with routine tweak only I'd definitely try.

Good luck and my sympathies - I'm glad I'm not alone.. Please let us know how you get on.

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there "outofherdepth" and welcome to you too ((hugs)) to you. PUPD can be tough, that crying is so loud, it helped me to remember that crying is just my baby "talking to me", they have no other means of communication and this stage. As long as you are with them it doesn't damage the bond of trust between mummy and baby. This doesn't make it much easier on you though, so hugs hugs.

Have you had a look at these survival strategies to give you a boost?

PU/PD Survival Strategies ~ How NOT to give up

If you'd like to post your EASY on this board in a separate thread we could take a look for you.

Thank you for popping on here too, this forum is staffed by volunteers, people like you who have come here to find help and have found a really supportive place. I too had help when my DD was small and I hung around, getting support from others, giving support back and eventually becoming a mod. This place wouldn't be what it is without people hopping on to support each other - so thanks!

[AmieMeslohi]

Hi 'outofherdepth' it's so nice to know I'm not alone in what I'm experiencing and can empathise with you so much, sending virtual hugs of support!

we had another awful night last night 4 wakenings and awake from 3am-5am despite my commitment to change I gave in again and bought her in with me as the Ssssh/Pat wasn't working and my back was killing me from bending over the cot! Woke up this morning feeling overwhelmingly guilty for giving in again

However a new day a new start as they say! She is 15mins in to her first nap, after a 2.5hr activity time sat here waiting to pounce with my Sssshing in case she starts to stir!! X

[outofherdepth]

Thanks so much for this, I will persevere :-) I will see how things go with this tweak and pupd for a few days and if no/little  improvement I will definitely post our routine for further advice.

Thanks for the support at a difficult time and sorry for hijacking the thread!

Hahaha just wrote the above then saw your post...I too am 20mins into first nap of the day sitting by the cot expecting the worst in 10m lol. Sorry you had a bad night - don't feel guilty you are just being her mummy and it's natural to want to snatch her up and keep her with you! I know consistency is key to establishing good habits but at least your lo started out in her cot right? I think BW says that doing something 3 days in a row forms the basis of a habit/expectation for baby so one night shouldn't undo things (though what do I know!!).

Our night wasn't of as good as night before, I think due to OT. It is so hard! Good luck for the day :-) LO is stirring *sigh*

[Buttonbobs]

Hugs all round xxx

This isn't easy and I would be the first one to take my DD into bed with me if I'm exhausted. Sometimes you have to do what's best for you all as a family to get through things. One nights won't create a habit, please don't feel guilty

Sometimes a bit of APOP is nevesaary to get you through and then you can focus on the next time - it is a new day!! good luck ladies xx

[AmieMeslohi]

Thank you for your words of support although I have to confess its been more than one night though hence the horrendous guilt
So results today,she did a 1hr nap at 9.30am which is a big improvement and she only needed me to Sssh her twice when she stirred. The rest of the day was a mixture of 45mins naps as we were out and about all afternoon.

As she had had a total of 2hrs 40mins napping I moved her bedtime to 6.45pm which went ok still carrying out the Sssh/Pat.

I'm wondering if I should maybe try a dream feed at 11pm and see if that helps her go through?I have just purchased the BW sleep book to read but I'm sure a friend mentioned that the BW suggests a dream feed in one of her EASY's???Or should my next step be to repeat the. 9.30am morning nap to get her used to it and then think about another change once that's settled?
 

[Domestic Engineer]

According to the BW book, shh-pat may be more distracting than soothing for a child by six months. If she seems to respond to it well, then by all means keep using it, but at 6 months just a hand on her back, or sleepy "cue words" or pick up-put down might be more effective.

The book also recommends keeping the dream feed until the child is established on solids. Since she's already starting solids, I don't know whether it would be worth it to try to introduce it, then wean her from it in a month or two, or if you would rather just try to get her to sleep through at this point, especially since she's formula fed. But if she can only make it one 7-8 hour stretch at night, then the dream feed would be better than a feeding in the MOTN.

A further suggestion is that if she gets "stuck" in a cycle of napping about 30 minutes, you could try the "wake to sleep" method, where you go into her room about 5-10 minutes before she would normally wake from the nap, wake her slightly so that she stirs briefly and falls back asleep, then hope that she might fall back into a deep sleep and sleep another 30 minutes.

I found your EASY a bit confusing - if she's going down for a nap at 8:30, and sleeping 30 minutes, then she wakes at 9? So is she having activity time until it's time to eat at 11? And then two hours after her wake time would be 11, when you're starting the next feeding, and so on with the next few cycles. Am I misunderstanding something?

Also, at this point I would try to start weaning her from the pacifier if she's not too resistant, as she probably doesn't need that much sucking anymore and it will only get harder as she gets older. Especially if there's any chance that it's contributing to sleep problems. But that can wait until you have a routine established and things have calmed down otherwise.

[outofherdepth]

Amie it's spooky how similar our days are! My lo also napped for an hr this morning which is a massive improvement but she still woke up crying and wouldn't resettle and the next nap was a disaster with lots of crying and only 20mins sleeping. BW advises trying to get them back to sleep for 40minutes but I kind of give up after 10-15 as I know from experience she's not going back to sleep!

Due to 2nd and 3rd naps being short I put her to bed at 6.40pm and she settled without crying in about 5 minutes (result) but woke up after half an hour and cried for about 15minutes. She's been asleep since and I too am toying with the idea of a DF at 11ish but I'm worried as I have NEVER purposely woken her in her life..the thought makes my skin hurt!! lol so just don't know  I might give it a go..

I'm also wondering whether another reason my lg's naps are so rubbish is because she's sleeping too much at night - is that possible? I counted it up and she's actually getting close to 13 hours on some nights (I didn't realise this - I need to try to sleep in this time!). I can't stand the idea of waking her in the morning, especially since she always seems OT, but what do you reckon? Is it possible to get too much night time sleep? I can't find an answer on the net.

Hope your night goes well and your back isn't too sore. I have a chair by my lo's cot and put my hand through the bars to try to spare my back - it still aches but not as much.

Good luck, I'll let you know if I attempt the DF.
x x

[Buttonbobs]

Ok so well done you for sticking with the 9.30 nap, keep going with that for a couple of days and I think then shift it a little later again.

As for those later 45 min naps, those sound like UT naps so you may need to lengthen those later a times a little bit too now. It is also ok to focus on one nap at a time if you find that easier.

We did a DF with DD until she was 8/9 months as she was weaned using BLW so not really on sufficient solids until then. But, we had started it around 2 months. You could give it a try if you like, you'd need to do it for over a week (between 10 and 11pm) to see if it works for you. But be aware, starting a DF later could actually disrupt night sleep more, so be prepared for that.

If it makes you feel better, my DD (3.5 years) was in bed with us last night. This made for a pretty awful sleep for us though as she's so big and wriggly now, sometimes needs must. You are starting to make changes now and work towards IS, but your LO is still small, please don't feel guilty for being there for her. Once you're on a better routine and you are a little better rested you will find it so much easier to work in the sleeping on her own thing.

I do agree with Domestic engineer in the main, the only thing I would say is don't feel you have to wean the dummy now. You do have quite a lot to tackle already. If once the routine is fixed a bit you feel the dummy is causing a problem then we can look at weaning it. But she will just be getting to the age where she can start to replug it herself and you may therefore get less disruption with the dummy. Many LOs do need to suck for a long time (particularly if they are bottle fed as mine was) once the comfort sucking of BF was gone for thwr she really needed that. We kept it to bed time and sleep times and this reduced the difficulty when we got rid of it to the dummy fairy this Christmas

[Buttonbobs]

OOHD - would you like to post a separate thread of your EAS for us to have a look at? No pressure if you're happy, but please remember the option is there

[AmieMeslohi]

I chickened out of the DF lol! She woke at 12.30pm for a feed and went straight back down no problem. She then woke at 3.30am just looking for comfort,after a few Sssh/Pats she went back off (IN HER OWN COT!!!!) till 6.15am I couldn't believe it!!She played on her own blabbering away till my husband got her up at 6.45am.

We are 25mins in to nap as did 2.5hrs from WU - she went down easily so holding my breath for a good nap

Domestic Engineer thank you for your advice also - yes looking at my EASY you're right it's very confusing She would sometimes take a second 30mins nap mid A time and I would then feed at the normal time. I'm hoping cracking the naps will help us naturally find a new EASY that's better for us both.

OOHD - sounds like we have two peas in a pod!!! Did you brave the DF? I think I've decided that it might be more disruptive to start it now and going to stick with tackling her naps and routine in the hope the nights get better!! How was your night? X