Multiple night wakings with 11 month old

[Pomme-mum]

Hello,
I started implementing EASY with my son when he was about a month old. We had  good success with naps and at around 4 months I was able to put him down and leave the room while he fell asleep. I assumed at this point night time wakings would decrease ....but they didn't and we got very lost somewhere between then and now. He learnt to crawl at 7 months and by 8 months separation anxiety was in full swing, and I was no longer able to leave the room until after he fell asleep, or he would just stand in his crib and scream. Now we have been working on decreasing night feeds since January but he still wakes multiple times.
He is breast fed, and eats solid food well during the day.
His schedule is
Wake 6:30 - 7:00
Nurse 5 -10 mins
Breakfast 8:00
Activity till 10.00
Nap 10:00- 11.15 or 30
Nurse 5 - mins
Activity 11:30 - 1
Lunch
Activity 1:30 - 2:30
Nurse 5 mins ( doesn't fall asleep)
Nap 2:30 - 4:00
Activity
Supper 5:30 or 6:00
Bedtime routine starts around 7:15
Nurse 7:45
Falls asleep unassisted, but with me in the room at 8:00

He usually wakes around 11:00, if I don't nurse him he wakes again at 12:00, he nurses, on good nights he then sleeps until 4:00 or 5:00, on bad nights he wakes at every hour or 2 and although may settle fairly easily, will wake every time we leave his room. This can go on for an hour. The last couple of nights my husband or I just ended up sleeping in there too!
If he nursed at 5:00 he will sleep till 7:00, if at 4:00 he will wake up between 6:00 and 6:30 and will only go back to sleep if I feed him. I  usually only feed on one side, but I have big breasts and that always seemed sufficent.

I tried shifting his bedtime to 7 but that didn't work, he was waking earlier, resisting naps and have lower quality sleep during naps. He seemed over tired and cranky.

His bedtime routine is bath, pajamas, breast feed, then into his cot awake and I sing him a lullaby. I then stand there or sit in a chair while he settles himself to sleep, same as naps. Sometimes I have to lay him down a few times, other times he will do that himself.

Should I just night wean him altogether? Do I be need to leaving the room to see if he will learn who to settle himself, I am not comfortable with this but I am also in desperate need of more sleep.


Thank you for your help.

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there & welcome to BW

Seems like you have a good routine going. Though I wonder if that is maybe a bit too much day sleep for him, leading to these many night wakings. What A are you doing right now? I can't make out. Are you doing set nap times or based on A?

Your day is on the long side though.

I tried shifting his bedtime to 7 but that didn't work, he was waking earlier, resisting naps and have lower quality sleep during naps. He seemed over tired and cranky.

I wonder whether instead of pushing bedtime later, it might help to cap the nap instead. If the first nap could be pushed a bit later and then nap 2 could be a catnap instead. That's what I do with my 10 month old. A long morning nap + a 30 minute catnap.  How does that sound?

I don't feel that all these wakings would be for food, especially if he is having a fair quantity of solids during the day. Could he be in any discomfort? Is he teething?

We just went through a brutal period of SA, so I feel your pain. I was advised to try Walk in/Walk out or Gradual Withdrawal. Although my LO is an independent sleeper, I opted for Gradual withdrawal and it worked. I stayed with her, patting her bottom and talking softly. As soon as she stopped crying, I would reduce the patting and remove my hand. Rinse, repeat. It took 2 days of her crying for 1.5 hours (I was shattered) and 45 minutes for her to go back to normal.
Separation Anxiety
Getting back on track using Walk In/Walk Out (WI/WO)

Hope that helps!

[Pomme-mum]

Thanks for responding, and on Easter weekend.
Activity length is around 3, 3, and 4. Give or take 15 mins  I have been doing more of a set routine as he seems to respond well to that. He often doesn't show very obvious sleepy sings, but usually falls asleep within a few minutes of being laid down. If I miss that window, it takes him longer to settle and he doesn't sleep for as long. But that is usually because we have been out and I couldn't put him down at the usual time, so might be overstimulated.

I was under the impression that a shorter morning nap, and then a longer afternoon nap promoted better night sleep. Do you think if the morning nap is late enough that is no longer an issue?

I live in The USA, but am british, and have noticed that they have a different culture around toddlers and sleep. They are almost obsessed with multiple long toddler naps, and here they continue to nap their kids long after I think we do in the UK. So I think I got a little caught up in creating this with my LO.

I will try extending his morning activity gradually over the next few days, how long is your 10 month old's morning activity time?

Thanks again.

[newkidontheblock]

Activity length is around 3, 3, and 4.

A push in A times might be in order. 3 is on the lower side and these NWs might be due to that. I think A times for an 11 mo is closer to 4 hours, if not a bit more. My DD is doing 4.15 A at the moment.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

I was under the impression that a shorter morning nap, and then a longer afternoon nap promoted better night sleep. Do you think if the morning nap is late enough that is no longer an issue?

It depends on what works for your LO. Either way is fine. This is all of a part of the 2-1 transition, when they drop down to 1 nap.
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
With my DD, the am nap is the only one she does well, so we do long am + catnap. The good thing about this is that if her am nap ends at 1.30 or later, then I go for a one nap day with an early bed time.

They are almost obsessed with multiple long toddler naps, and here they continue to nap their kids long after I think we do in the UK.

Well, at the end of the day, they can only sleep for so long, right? And you want most of that sleep happening during the night instead of the day:)

Why don't you join us in our birth club? It's a great way to meet other mums going through the same experiences and we're a fun gang:p
Re: 9-12 months, part 23
Hope to see you there

[Pomme-mum]

Hi, thanks so much for your advice.  I have extended our activity time to 3.5 hours for now, longer seems to result in over tired. There has definitely been an improvement over all. He is still waking 3 -4 times a night, but is settling much faster on the non feeding wakes. I have been waking him from his second nap after 30-45 mins, depending on the length of First nap, but still struggling to get him to go to sleep before 8:00. He seems to need at least 4 hours activity in the evening befor bed, or his just fusses in his cot for 30+ mins before falling asleep.
So right now we are doing:
Wake 7:00
Activity 3:5
Nap 10:30 for - 1.5hrs approx.
Activity 3.5hours
Nap 3:30 for 30 mins
Activity 4
Which brings us to bed at 8:00!
Interestingly for a few days he was sleeping in to 8:00! But he had a terrible night on Monday, I think he must have been in pain because he was up from 11-2! I gave him slightly longer naps yesterday, he had 1:45 hours in the morning and 50 mins in the evening, and once he got to sleep last night had a good night, with only 1 bf, and 2 other wake ups,  but was asleep again by the time I got to him on the 2nd wake up.

So I guess what I am asking is, should I shorten the morning nap ( which I don't really want to do because it is so nice having a chunk of time to get stuff done in) or try shortening 2 nd activity, or shorten last nap? Or is it a case of trial and error

It seems like we are stuck in bad habits, what do you recommend for breaking those. Can you link me to the relevant forum?

Thanks for inviting me to the 9 -12 month group. I look forward to checking it out.
Debbie

[newkidontheblock]

It is fine to keep your A to 3.5 before naps and longer before bed, Debbie. Many babies do their longest A before bed. But honey, 4 hours A after a 30 minute CN is far too much. I think he is having a hard time sleeping/ having NWs because he is so OT by this point. You may find him sleeping off on some days but that might be him just crashing out.  I also think he can't handle a long A in the morning because he is still a bit tired due to the NWs.

So I guess what I am asking is, should I shorten the morning nap ( which I don't really want to do because it is so nice having a chunk of time to get stuff done in) or try shortening 2 nd activity, or shorten last nap? Or is it a case of trial and error

You would have to decide this. With the current routine that you posted, I would advise you have him in bed no later than 2-2.5 hours after that 30 minute CN. More and he will probably get his second wind, have a hard time settling at BT, have night wakings soon after going to bed and a host of other shenanigans.
You could even cap the first nap - let the second go on for as long as he sleeps and then keep bed 4 hours later as you say that is the A he needs.

It seems like we are stuck in bad habits, what do you recommend for breaking those. Can you link me to the relevant forum?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I just think a few changes to your routine would help with most of the issues:)

[Pomme-mum]

I think you are right about the second wind, and OT. We had a crazy night a few nights ago with him up for 3 hours, I thought it was pain but perhaps it was just OT. I have been letting the 2 nap run up to 45 mins because I got distracted doing things. So I am going to work on keeping that 2nd nap short and getting him to bed earlier.

I was reading other posts about frequent night wakings, and thought there was reference to techniques to undo habitual night wakings like pick up and put down, or graduale withdraw. I tried to follow a link but I got some kind of error message. Thought there might be a forum within this group that was dedicated to those topics. That was what I was asking about at the end of my previous message.

[newkidontheblock]

I have been letting the 2 nap run up to 45 mins because I got distracted doing things.

It's fine to let it go on for 45 minutes. That would still be a catnap. Just remember that they can go a bit longer after a 45 minute nap as opposed to 30 minutes:) Such little weirdos

Here is a link for dealing with habitual wakings
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
And this is the Walk in/walk out & gradual withdrawal method
Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)