7 Month old newbie to BW - help needed

[Badgerino]

Hi,

My LO has just turned 7 months and has always been a pretty poor sleeper. He is EBF and I just held onto "he'll sleep when he is ready" and repeated this as a mantra for 6 months.

About 3 weeks ago I reached breaking point with the lack of sleep, he was waking somewhere between every 40 minutes to 2 hours. Sometimes he would take a feed and go straight back off and others we would be up for hours.

I spoke to my HV and she pointed me in the direction of PUPD. After having a bit of a read of various bits online I decided to give it a go to coincide with a week that hubby was off work so he could be my back up. It rapidly became clear that the picking up was too stimulating and just enraged him more, but keeping him lying in his cot with shush pat (whilst still not fun!) worked a lot better.

I stumbled across a Baby Whisperer board on another baby forum that I use and asked for help, and they gave some great advice. As a result his daytime sleeps are now pretty good. Night times are still pretty bad. Better than what they were, but after just over 3 weeks of trying to break bad habits we seem to have plateaued at sleeping for 3 1/2 hours max.

Our typical day:

Awake at 6 (usually quite happy and chatting to himself and his lovey in his cot in his room so I can sometimes leave him to it for 15 mins whilst I doze a bit more)
BF (often doesn't seem massively hungry)
He has a play on his mat whilst I get ready for the day
7/7.30ish Breakfast (we are BLW for the last month, he is a little hit and miss how much he eats but his nappies tell me he is giving it a go!)
8.30 go back upstairs to get him cleaned up, nappy off time, massage, close curtains have a little wind down cuddle
9ish BF where he has a good belly full
9.15/9.30 nap - after BF & burp I put him down drowsy
usually sleeps for an hour & a half
10.45/11ish awake, take the dog for walkies
11.30 BF (often not very hungry)
12 activity
12.30 lunch
1.30 go back upstairs to get him cleaned up, nappy off time, massage, close curtains have a little wind down cuddle
2ish BF where he has a good belly full
2.15/2.30 nap for an hour and a half
3.45/4ish awake, activity
4.30 see if he will have another BF (sometimes has a little but not very hungry)
5pm dinner
5.30 bath, massage with the lights off, get ready for bed
6ish BF - very long BF at least 30 mins
6.30 down in his cot drowsy - this is where it tends to go a bit wrong!

I will put him down drowsy but he usually wakes up and is pretty wired as soon as he hits the mattress. He will then thrash about, kicking hitting the mattress, smacking himself in the head, generally flailing. He starts off just being very excited, I have tried leaving him to it, thinking he will just let off steam and then settle, but all that happens is after about 20 minutes of this he enters meltdown and gets very upset screaming and crying and the thrashing/kicking/hitting goes up a notch.

What I ended up doing was pretty much restraining him in his cot with my body virtually alongside him, murmuring reassurances over and over and hold him still until the thrashing stops, he would still be screaming and crying but the movement would slow and I would start to ease off until I just had my hand on him and carry on murmuring to him. He would eventually go to sleep like this.

He would do this for daytime naps, but never as long as it lasts at night time. You can imagine this is pretty distressing all around.

The last 3 days we have got to a point where I now dont have to totally restrain him, I just hold his hands with him arms in his favoured sleep position and that seems to be doing the trick. So an improvement to the total body restraint, but still a long way off from where I want to be.

So once asleep (usually around 7, although has been up to an hour of thrashing on occasion until 7.30 or he then wakes like clockwork at:
10.30 where I feed, burp, clean nappy (he feeds so much he ends up leaking if I dont change him at least once during the night and this wake up seems to be easier to get him back down. nappy change at later feeds meant we would regularly be up for an hour and half as he didnt want to go back to sleep) and put him back down, usually by 11.30
2 where I feed, burp, put him back down, usually takes 45 minutes
4/4.30 I have tried not feeding him here, if I dont feed him he will go back to sleep within 15minutes but is then awake again within half an hour, if I do feed him he will sleep until 6 or even 6.45 if I am really lucky.

Some nights are worse, but always clock work! So a bad night is once down, up at 9, then 10.30, then 12.50, then 2, then 4, then 5.45. I swear he has a clock, he woke on the same hour markers even when the clocks change!

3 night wakings (on a good night) is a massive improvement to where we were, but once you factor in how long the feed takes, then having to hold him down, then sit with him for 20 minutes I am exhausted and on my last legs. We also dont have as many good nights as I'd like!

I guess I really want to either be told I am doing all the right things, and to keep at it, things will improve, or have some new ideas of things to try. Getting him to sleep is so distressing for us both. I hate to see him so upset, I try to tell myself it is for the best in the long run but after 3 weeks and little improvement it is really hard. 

I am conscious I have changed a lot on him within the last 3 weeks, like not BF to sleep, not feeding him every time he wakes etc, so dont want to throw too much at him, but I can't carry on like this for much longer. I am at breaking point.

I have tried to feed him more in the day, but it usually ends with him biting me as he wants to just play about. His bottom two teeth came in a month ago and I think they are bothering him again, but they seem to have been bad for two weeks now and no teeth. I use a teething gel before naps and then he gets a dose of ibuprofen before bed to try help with the discomfort.

Thanks for reading this far if you have made it, I appreciate it is pretty much our life story!

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there and welcome to BW. I want to just start off by telling you what a great job you have done getting him on a good routine. It looks good so far. How long have you'll been on this routine? It sometimes takes a while for things to fall into place.

I think the reason he is putting up a struggle at bedtime is that he is simply not tired enough. Since he is undertired, he protests but then quickly gets over tired in the process, leading to night wakings & early wakings. Night wakings soon after bed generally indicate OT. If you find him protesting in the same way for day naps, he might need a touch more A time.  You could try pushing bedtime back a bit, to 7 pm, maybe, or capping the pm nap at 1 hour. That is what we did at 7 months - DD's A time was 3.45 with 1.5 am nap + 1 hr pm but it very quickly changed to a long morning nap and 30 min pm catnap.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

You mention trying to fit more feeds in the day but it seems like plenty to me. It is best to try to space feeds out as they eat more that way. Otherwise, they get a bit of a snacking habit - eating only enough to get by for a while instead of a full feed. This usually leads to them waking at night to get more calories in.

PU/PD definitely can be stimulating for some babies. There are a few other methods that you could try. The main thing is to get the timings right though and make sure he is ready for bed. It sounds like you have a good wind down routine going. Gradually you could maybe try not nursing at that time and going straight to put down.
Gentle Removal Plan
Three-day magic: The ABC cure for Accidental Parenting (inc. Troubleshooter)
Have you taken the BW know your baby quiz? It helps when planning a strategy
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

I think the Gradual Withdrawal method could be a better fit for your LO. You can read up about it here.
Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

You mention that some of the NWs happen like clockwork. These sound like habitual wakings to me. You could try one of these methods to tackle them
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

I know this is a lot of information to take in. I hope I have answered everything. Please do ask if there is any thing that isn't clear enough.

Hope that this helps you get some sleep:)

[Badgerino]

Hi, thanks for the speedy response.

We have been on this routine for two weeks and he has taken to it really well. Prior to this he was a prolific cat napper.

Good point about bed time as the A part is shorter than our other A's throughout the day. I think I am over compensating for him being pretty chronically OT for so long and haven't adjusted that last A now that he has caught up a bit.

I will give it a try tonight, pushing back starting bath by 15 minutes and play it by ear from there.

Having just read your link about gradual withdrawal I think you are right, we have made massive steps so far, so it is only right that we take it slowly to get me out of the room and him sleeping on his own.

Not nursing to sleep is also on the agenda, I have been trying to introduce a bit more of a cuddle between finishing his feed and putting him down, but it is a bit hit and miss. After all this time of BF to sleep he understandably has a very strong sleep association with BF and can sometimes go out like a light very fast, one minute he is chowing down, then next minute crash. That is getting less frequent now we are on top of naps and he isnt OT, but I am not always getting him in the right window. Practice, practice, practice! I had hoped to eventually be able to do BF then a story but that seems a way off just yet!

The NWs are really predictable, I just worry that he is actually hungry as he will always take a real belly full in the night. I guess all I can do is try it one night and see what happens. If he is genuinely hungry I assume he will just wake on schedule anyway? Or not settle back down to sleep? I think that is my fear, I dread the settling to sleep bit as it is always so distressing, so want to avoid having to do it as much as possible! But that isnt really taking a long term view is it?!

If I do try wake to sleep, is there a particular feed that it is best to try it on? I have read about doing a dream feed when you go to bed - we currently dont do this at all. Is it worth trying to turn the 10.30 feed into a DF, or is it not worth bothering given his age?

Thanks again. It is nice to know that we are on track.

[Badgerino]

Well I pushed back his bath by 15 mins and ended up putting him down 20 mins later than usual in his cot. He was a star! A little wriggle, rubbed his face then a little flap  so I held his hands for a few mine then let go just leaving my hand on his chest.
Stayed like that for around 10 mins then just sitting next to him for the next 10.

He was very jolty, which he isn't usually. Lots of twitches and starts which is weird. He was the same at his afternoon nap.

So I did a little happy dance as he had gone down so well even with all the jolts. I had about 20 mins of talking to hubby and LO is awake. I left him for a min as it started as a little moaning but went in as it quickly escalated.

Settled him down again but this time more thrashing and crying. Once he settled he had a couple of big jolts that woke him up again. Took about half hour for him to go back to sleep and another 15 for me to sneak out.

He lasted about another 20 mins and up again. Took longer to settle again.

I have no idea what is going on! he hasn't had anything for dinner he hasn't had before, but I suppose it Could be tummy ache. But that wouldn't explain the jolts and twitches.

Has anyone seen this before or have any ideas?

As i have only just settled him now it means my wake to sleep plans for his usual 10.30 wake up has been shelved!

[newkidontheblock]

You are right that it will take a while to deal with the nursing to sleep association. You could start with naps. Nurse on wake up but not right before the nap maybe? Or if you want to keep that top up feed, nurse 30-45 minutes before nap time. With bedtime, I nurse DD, then put her into her sleep sack, ding a short song and PD. She won't tolerate stories yet: p maybe start with just a small song?

WRT the night feeds, it is completely normal to still have 1, maybe even 2 night feeds at this point. And if you feel he is genuinely hungry, by all means, feed him. I do think that spacing feeds during the day will also make a difference. We want him taking most of his calories then and not at night. Although it's pretty late in the game, you could even try a dream feed. At least that should help to eliminate hunger as the cause if he wakes early on.

So I did a little happy dance as he had gone down so well even with all the jolts. I had about 20 mins of talking to hubby and LO is awake. I left him for a min as it started as a little moaning but went in as it quickly escalated.

Waking after 20 minutes might mean OT but it also might mean that he got disturbed by the jolts as he came back into light sleep. Is he a back out tummy sleeper? Is he in a swaddle or sleep sack?

but went in as it quickly escalated.

Even when it escalates, I would say wait and evaluate what kind of a cry it is. If it's an I need you cry, then go in right away but sometimes if you SLOW down (stop, listen, observe, figure out what's up) you may find that he settles. My DD does this. Cries bloody murder one minute, asleep the next . sometimes we have rushed in only to find that she had settled and now we've disturbed her: p

I think more than anything else, you need to give it some more time for your routine to fall into place. There is probably a lot of accumulated OT in the picture too, and it can take a while to catch up on that.

[Badgerino]

Thanks.

Last night was a game of two halves. After the pretty awful first half where he kept jolting himself awake he had a feed just before 10 and after a lot of false starts where he was definitely drifting off to then just jerk himself awake he finally went to sleep at around 10.30.

He then woke at 12.50, after numerous jolts he settled at around 1.15, woke again at 2.20 had another feed, back to sleep by 3 and then slept until 6 which was lovely!

I always used to put him on his side whenever I put him down really drowsy/virtually asleep, but now that I am putting him down and letting him get himself settled he is on his back with one arm up and one down. When I put him down just before 3 I admit I cheated and put him down virtually asleep on his side rather than putting him down drowsy and letting him settled himself.

We use a sheet/blanket at nap times and a sleeping bag for bed time.

This morning's nap was a repeat of yesterday, a lot of interruptions. First of all I tried feeding him then we had his massage and sang the song I sing during wind down then put him to bed, and he went down really well. A bit of a face rub, I held just one hand rather than two and he started to drift. He had an awful lot of jolts again when going off. He would usually have one twitch when going off, not keep on jolting and twitching like he has done in the last 24 hours.

When he woke after half an hour I tried leaving him for a bit and for a minute I did think he was going to mutter and go back off but then went for a full blown yell so I went in . Once he calmed down and started to drift off he was really jolting again.

Could the jolting and twitching be something to do with him being more active during the day? The last few days he has become pretty obsessed with rolling onto his tummy and is very frustrated he can't move. He has always hated being on his tummy so this is very new, as is the rolling onto his tummy. He has been able to go from back to side for a while, but not his tummy. I wondered if the jolts were related to the new skill plus physical urge to get moving.

[newkidontheblock]

Yes, the jolts could definitely be due to that. My DD always hated being on her tummy but at 7 months, when we weaned the swaddle, she started rolling over and sleeping on her tummy and  it's been great! We even find it easier to soothe her this way. For naps, when we weaned the swaddle, to help with jolts and twitches, we put a heavy folded sheet over her tightly tucked into the mattress on both sides - maybe that could help? FX he does it soon!

[Badgerino]

That was some really good advice about the tucked in sheet. We have tried that for the last two nights and he has gone off to sleep a lot better.

Both nights when first putting him down drowsy I have put him on his side, he has had a little wriggle and turned to be mostly on his back, but with a bit of a twist at his waist, then I have tucked the strip of sheet in nice and tight and he has gone off to sleep by himself. This is a massive MASSIVE step for us as he has never done this.

We still have a long way to go as he is then waking about an hour later, he has done the same thing each night, had a little moan, then gone quiet so I haven't gone in. But he then wakes again about an hour later and this time gets himself rather upset and I go in. I guess he just needs a bit more practice of putting himself to sleep to be able to do it consistently.

I have left him with his two night feeds and not tried to push any of them back yet and will carry on for a while until I start to think he isnt actually hungry.

On both nights after both feeds he totally crashed out and even burping him and picking him up under his arm pits (rather than a cradle hold) wasnt enough to get him to stir enough to put him down drowsy. Is this a problem? I worry I am back to reinforcing feeding to sleep but dont see what else I can do. It also makes night feeds a lot quicker so I can't really grumble in that regard. Previously he would often be asleep on my lap then when I put him he would pop his eyes open and take a while to settle and we'd often be up for nearly 2 hours.

He has woken at 5am the last two days. Thursday morning I managed to nearly get him back off to sleep by just holding his hand and soothing words, but everytime he got close he would then stir, I gave up at 6 and passed him over to hubby whilst he was getting ready for work. He did the same this morning, but this time I put the spare cot mattress we have down on the floor and snuggled up next to him and we went back to sleep until 6.30.

His first nap is still 9/9.30ish to discourage the early wakings, is there anything else I can do?

As a result of him being up so early he crashed out this morning after his pre-nap feed. Which is a shame as we had one day where I fed him, then we had half an hour of massage/quiet cuddle before putting him down. I will try again in the afternoon, but he was just shattered. I worry if I put him down to nap any earlier it will encourage the 5am starts even more!

Sorry for the ramble!

[newkidontheblock]

Yay, you. Happy to hear all this.

We still have a long way to go as he is then waking about an hour later, he has done the same thing each night, had a little moan, then gone quiet so I haven't gone in. But he then wakes again about an hour later and this time gets himself rather upset and I go in. I guess he just needs a bit more practice of putting himself to sleep to be able to do it consistently.

I find DD doing this when she is OT. He probably just has a lot of accumulated OT to work through.

I wouldn't bother about putting him back awake during NFs. Seriously, if he is passing out, great!

He has woken at 5am the last two days.

How many hours is that since BT? EWs 10-10.5 hours after bed also are indicative of OT.

What A time is he doing at the moment? On days of EWs, if I simply cannot resettle DD, I just start the day and put down for am nap after normal A time. Nowadays she has thankfully started doing a long am nap to compensate but otherwise we would just need a longer pm nap and early bed time.

Hope I answered everything:)

Have you checked out our Birth Clubs yet? They're a great way to share experiences and chat with other mums. This is the one you would post on
Re: 6-9 months, part 38

[Badgerino]

I agree on the OT. I still find him really tricky to gauge as he doesn't ever get grumpy when OT. He will rub his eyes a couple of times and then bang the window has gone!

He just went down at 6.50 and I was so proud. I put him down a little more alert than usual, he had a little shuffle about and was reaching for me a bit, so I put my arm in the cot for him to roll onto his side (part of my cunning plan of side sleeping as he seems to sleep deeper) and grab onto, he then sucked his lovey and then drifted off. I anticipate a recurrence of the last two night's of frequent early waking, but I am still super proud he has managed that much. Such a big step forward for us.

The last two nights he went to sleep around 7/7.30ish, then awake at 5, so that is.... around 10 hours, so another nail in the OT coffin!

A time is.... around the 3 hour mark. I will try moving up the morning nap if he wakes at 5 again and see how we get on. Funnily enough the EMWs have coincided with interrupted daytime naps. The more that I learn the more I come to realise that all roads seem to lead back to OT. I guess we try to tackle the OT and hopefully a lot of the other stuff will fall into place from there.

I haven't checked them out, but will do, thank you.

And thank you again for answering all my queries, it is brilliant to get so much support and advice.

[Badgerino]

Meant to ask, what is the best way to tackle this ongoing OT problem?

cut down on A time? I think moving morning nap back to 3 hours will make a difference, at the moment keeping him up till gone 9 to try combat EWM won't be helping.

[newkidontheblock]

Both of you are really doing so great. WRT OT, the only way to really catch up is a few days of consistent naps and good nights. If you find him rubbing his eyes, it's possible he needed to be in bed a while before. With my DD, I go by the clock because if I wait for her cues, it's already too late.

[Badgerino]

Update!

It has been swings and roundabouts here it feels.

He is getting better at drifting off by himself, and the early evening wake ups after BT are getting better, the last two nights we have only had one brief stir and although he did get pretty worked up so I went it, as soon as I was in the room he drifted back off pretty quickly with very little input from me.

I think I had previously been trying to make too big a step, so putting him down wide awake and then wondering why he was so wired. Instead I have been putting him down very drowsy, if he is too drowsy I unzip he sleeping bag and give him a general jiggle about so he isn't sound asleep. Hopefully once we have consistently mastered him going off from drowsy I can then move up to being a little more awake each time. At least that is what I hope will happen. I am taking the long term view, or at least trying to!

However things seem to be getting worse with the night wakings themselves. The last 3 nights have all pretty much looked the same:

Asleep at 6.30 (with a brief stir at around 8.30 but quickly goes back to sleep)
Awake between 10.30 & 11 where I give him a feed, nappy change and feed again then put him down once he is asleep, this typically takes 30 mins from waking to being back down asleep.

Then this is the bit I'm struggling with: he then wakes around 1.30/2ish. Given it isn't long since his last feed at 11 and I know he can go more than 2.5 hours between feeds I have been trying to settle him back down without feeding. So a hand on him and reassuring words, he is having none of it. He wakes up and cries so I go in, once he is calm he is pretty wired, thrashing around and just refuses to settle. He isn't wet, he doesn't have a dirty nappy (I have been giving him a clean nappy at the earlier feed thinking this might have been what was waking him, but it isn't). He doesn't have trapped wind, he doesn't need to burp, he doesn't have a temperature. His teeth have been troubling him intermittently,but I have tried giving him some teething gel, but he still won't go back to sleep.
A couple of times he will calm down and settle, to only wake again after a few minutes.
Each night after about 45mins to an hour I have given up and fed him. I don't think he is actually hungry as he isn't feeding for long. He will then go back to sleep but only for an hour or so.

Depending on how long we have been up at this time he will then wake up again after about 1.5 - 2 hours and this time he will usually take a pretty long feed (half hour ish) and go back down again until 6 (he still won't sleep beyond 6!).

His daytime naps had a little wobble last week where he would wake after 40mins, but Monday and yesterday were a lot better. He had around and hour and quarter to an an and a half in the morning at around 9, and then an hour and a half in the afternoon from 2.

We start BT wind down at 5.30 and then asleep by 6.30.

Any suggestions on how to tackle that big middle of the night wake up? Should I just immediately feed him when he wakes up? I don't think he needs it as it isn't very long since his first feed.

A friend has suggested offering water to see if that is enough to get him to settle. I can't make my mind up whether this is a) a good idea, b) worth trying.

I am feeling a bit down about the night wakings at the moment as OH sat me down at the weekend and said that if things don't improve he wants me to consider either CC or CIO. Just the thought of trying either of those makes me feel physically sick and want to cry just typing it! He did say that he wouldn't do anything like that without my say so, but I am feeling a lot of pressure at the moment to make a more gentle approach work. We are now 4 weeks in to putting him down drowsy and not feeding to sleep and whilst there are improvements in some areas (daytime naps and actually going to sleep) the length of sleep stretches and night time wakings aren't any better.

[newkidontheblock]

Awake between 10.30 & 11 where I give him a feed, nappy change and feed again then put him down once he is asleep, this typically takes 30 mins from waking to being back down asleep.

I think you have two habitual wakings happening, hun - at 10 & at 2. At this point, he ought to be able to go a bit longer between feeds, and you should be getting at least one long stretch. I wonder, have you ever tried settling this first waking without a feed instead? It might be easier to do when you are still awake as opposed to the middle of the night. Also, does he have a dirty diaper/ is he soaked through at this point? If not, then  it might be best to not change him. So basically, if you can settle the first waking, then you can feed right away at the next one. You could also try some of the methods to deal with habitual wakings. The link is in the posts above.

Does he accept a bottle? I have always had DH deal with NFs with expressed milk. This is just my opinion but I feel that it did contribute to DD STTN. I have only ever nursed her at night thrice and all three times she up up and down almost every hour. I think it might have been because she felt so comfy that she fell asleep nursing/didn't have enough and so got hungry once more. With the bottle, she has what she wants and he places her back in her crib. No muss, no fuss. Worth a try, maybe? I have also heard about people offering water instead. But that wouldn't really solve the problem, would it? If he is going to wake up anyway, and you are going to have to be there with him, even offering water, it is easier to just feed him. At least he is getting more calories that way:)

You mention trying to fit more feeds in the day but it seems like plenty to me. It is best to try to space feeds out as they eat more that way. Otherwise, they get a bit of a snacking habit - eating only enough to get by for a while instead of a full feed. This usually leads to them waking at night to get more calories in.

He already is feeding very frequently during the day. It is possible he is used to the short duration between feeds and expects the same at night.

We are now 4 weeks in to putting him down drowsy and not feeding to sleep and whilst there are improvements in some areas (daytime naps and actually going to sleep) the length of sleep stretches and night time wakings aren't any better.

Hun, you and DH have made such giant strides in just 4 weeks! I know it seems like forever at this point but you're getting there - things are improving. Write down everything, honey. That way you will SEE the progress you are making! Every little step counts. I'm so glad that CIO/CC are not for you. We do not support these methods here at Baby Whisperer as it completely breaks the bonds of trust between the LO and the caregiver.
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Kara & Alexandra's Story
Could you ask DH to also read through these links? At the end of the day, hun, there are no quick fix solutions. You are teaching him sleep and as with everything we learn, it is a process. It takes time. And your little guy is a rockstar for catching on so quickly!

I'm here, and this forum is here to help you find success with a way that is gentle on both of you and builds a relationship based on kindness, trust and respect for each other. I hope DH will understand once he reads through these links.

Hugs, honey! It will get better!

[Badgerino]

Thank you as always for the pep talk and good advice.

You are right on the wakings. I have known it for a while but every night made some excuse as I hate the thought of waking him too much by accident and having yet another wake up to deal with. But I am going to suck it up and try for the 10 pm one tonight.

My copy of the bw solves your problems arrived today so I shall have a good read of the wake to sleep section and give it a go. I don't have anything to lose.

Thanks for the cc and cio links. I will definitely point hubby in their direction. Even though I know he wouldn't do it i am still upset that he thinks it is a good idea. Hopefully a bit more information will get him totally on board with this approach.

He will take a bottle so may suggest hubby takes a night feed or two this weekend and see what happens.

Wish me luck with the wake to sleep!

[Badgerino]

Somewhat hilariously (I am trying to see the funny side at least) I decided I would go in at 9.30 to try address his 10.30/11 wake up...

So tonight he fell asleep at just before 7 and then not a single stir all evening (he usually needs a resettle around 8.30) until.... 9.15! Hubby was on duty whilst I was getting ready for bed and it took 15 minutes for him to get him to settle.

Oh dear! I am entirely at sea as to what to about wake ups now. We are in unchartered territory! I think I will see what time the next wake up happens and then see if we fall back to 2am and 4am. If we make it until 2 I will feed him then, and then set an alarm for 3.30 to try to address the 4am waking. I think...

Just going to have to wing it!!

I am so proud of the sleep so far though. He was still a bit wired this evening, no idea why, we didnt do anything differently that I can think of. The only thing that is new is that one of his top teeth has just started poking through this afternoon, but he doesn't seem in pain. So instead of being able to put him down drowsy he was a little more awake, he had a bit of a fidget and a play about for around 25 minutes before settling down. I had left my hand in the cot near the bars and he rolled onto his side so he could touch my hand and eventually drifted off. So proud!
It is also brilliantly that he didn't stir until 9.15.

[newkidontheblock]

I have known it for a while but every night made some excuse as I hate the thought of waking him too much by accident and having yet another wake up to deal with.

Just recently I created a prop issue with my previously independent sleeper. We weaned her off the swaddle and although she was settling independently for the most part, there were days when she couldn't. None of our old methods were working and instead of working on new methods, DH & I got into the habit of holding her to sleep. Our excuse - at least she isn't crying - it doesn't take long and she is getting the sleep she needs  -- it's easier than long winded soothing etc etc etc. Soon it took longer and longer to put her down and finally she stopped settling independently at bed altogether! In the month of March, she fell asleep on her own THREE TIMES only:S:S:S And I kept avoiding tackling the issue because I didn't want to make her cry. Finally it took just 2 days of me & DH plucking up our courage, sticking to our guns and using the Gradual Withdrawal method to soothe her in the crib. We have NEVER been able to soothe her in her crib previously. I was terrified the entire time as I had never let her cry that hard for that long - 1.5 hrs & 45 minutes! I feel so free and so proud now though. I can pat her bottom or rub her back and she will sleep:) So don't be scared, hun. Just go for it!

Even though I know he wouldn't do it i am still upset that he thinks it is a good idea.

As you said, hun, we grab at anything when we are desperate and both of you are so tired right now. I'm ashamed to say that DH & I also tried this right in the beginning before we stumbled on to BW. We only lasted 10 minutes but it was horrible. The books make it sound so simple & so easy but it is hard and simply not worth it. Especially when there are so many gentler & easier ways. That is what I love about Baby whisperer. We learn a caring, loving way to teach our child sleep - and this is something that will be needed for the rest of his life.

So tonight he fell asleep at just before 7 and then not a single stir all evening (he usually needs a resettle around 8.30) until.... 9.15!

OT, hun.

I'm glad you are looking at the bright side. I really think a good sense of humour is needed to make it through the first year. You and DH definitely have a lot to be proud of with all you'll have accomplished so far

[Badgerino]

Thank you.

Well last night was our first attempt. As he usually wakes at 10.30, 2.30 & 4.30 I decided to only try to tackle the 10.30 one and see what happens. I have the (probably naive) hope that if we stop the 10.30 one then it will have a knock on effect on the rest of the night!

So I went in at 9.30, stroked the back of his hand, he gave a little sigh and a tiny movement of his arm. I sat there for about 5 minutes to make sure he didn't stir any further and then crept out of the room like a ninja!

At 10.30... he woke!

I know you have to try wake to sleep for 3 nights, but does last night count as night 1 if he still woke? Or will it be for 3 nights from when we have our first successful night of him not waking at 10.30?

Whilst the W2S didnt work so well we did actually have a better night. It is all relative I guess!

He went to sleep at 6.50, he didnt stir all evening (usually have to go in and resettle him at least once before 10.30).

He then woke at 10.30, I tried to get him to go back to sleep without a feed but he just got more and more upset, so had a feed and straight back to sleep at 11 (put down asleep). He then woke at 2.30, I tried to get him to go back to sleep again, but again he got very upset so after 15 minutes I gave up and fed him and he went back to sleep at 3.15 (this time down awake as he didnt fall asleep feeding). He then slept until 5.30 at which point he decided it was time to get up for the day. Luckily hubby gets up at 6 so took him so they could have some quality time whilst I slept til 6.30.

I also tried W2S with his morning nap yesterday as I have noticed that the last week they have been getting shorter. He used to do an hour and a half twice a day, but his morning one has been getting shorter (around 45 mins). It worked really well for the morning nap, we got an hour and a half, so I will be doing that again this morning.

I just don't know if the night time one from last night counts or not.

Do I need to get him to stir more than just a sigh and a tiny hand movement? Or is still waking on his usual cue par for the course?

[Lycheewaves]

Just weighing in on the wake to sleep which we used really successfully to lengthen our DS's naps as well as eradicate habitual night wakings, anecdotally for us it took a lot longer than 3 days, for us it was several weeks but we had quite a lot of wakings to remove! And we found that they'd come earlier and earlier until the first one (I think it was 1am) eventually met his Night feed at 11pm so we then worked on his 4am etc so take heart! It might seem to take awhile but it is a successful and quite unintrusive sleep training method.

The way we woke was to give a pretty decent shove, so he stirred or even fluttered his eyes open a bit. But you'll get to see what works with your DS, I found when we first started and it was too gentle it didn't seem to be resetting his sleep cycle.

Best of luck it sounds like you're really making progress and doing so well!

[newkidontheblock]

So I went in at 9.30, stroked the back of his hand, he gave a little sigh and a tiny movement of his arm. I sat there for about 5 minutes to make sure he didn't stir any further and then crept out of the room like a ninja!
At 10.30... he woke!

Hun, I'm so sorry but I burst out laughing reading this. Horrible of me but I could just imagine it! You won't believe the number of times I have been so pleased to have settled DD easily only to find her up & crying by the time I reach the monitor. They out-ninja us every time!

I don't have any BTDT advice with W2S honestly. But I have done something close to it to help lengthen DD's afternoon nap. So she would keep waking up after 38 minutes. I tried W2S - I was ready & waiting when she stirred, I patted her back to sleep & kept it up for 10 minutes and I *thought* I was successful but she would inevitably wake up again 10 minutes later. So I committed to a week of staying in her room for the entire nap. That is, I would be waiting - if she slept through, great -- if she stirred and started crying, I would immediately pat her back to sleep and keep my hand on her for the rest of the time. Then after we were consistently getting long naps this way, I held back and she made it through.

[Badgerino]

I don't blame you. It is funny! it doesn't help our house is really old and the floor boards creak. I have figured out which ones don't so I end up feeling like I am channelling Catherine zeta Jones from that scene in entrapment  (without the leather catsuit! ). I'm possibly not quite as graceful. ... possibly. ...

The things we do to! Its a good job I still have my sense of humour.

Well the last two nights have gone as Follows:

Friday night asleep at 6.30, Stirred 7.30 & 8.45 needing to be resettled.
Wake to sleep at 10 (still being very gentle and getting a movement or two and breathing change).
Woke at 11.30 feed & asleep within half an hour
woke at 3.30 feed & asleep within half an hour
up for the day at 5.30 (not fun! )

Saturday night asleep by 7, Stirred a little at 9.
Wake to sleep at 10.
Woke at 10.50 had feed but very unsettled and took ages to go back to sleep
woke at 2.30 same as before very unsettled up for about an hour and a half before he fell asleep in his cot.
Awake at 6 but got him back to sleep until 7.30 (whoop whoop!)

So another mixed bag but given a top front tooth is partway through since Thursday I am really pleased.

Still a way to go but determined to persevere.

Thanks again for all the support and advice

[newkidontheblock]

Have you seen this? Maybe some ideas:p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9ANB-ccfb0

The first day you posted, those NWs soon after bed as well as the 5.30 WU sound like he was OT. How were naps on that day? The next day is much better.

Have you been able to space out the day feeds, honey? Because I feel that he might just *need* those 2 night feeds. He is waking at different times for them but he is determined to have his 2 feeds. Spacing day feeds would definitely increase his intake during the day, so he wouldn't try and make up the calories at night. Did DH try the bottle? You could try a dream feed at 10ish, before he normally wakes to eliminate hunger as a cause. If he still wakes and needs help, then you know it is habitual. And if he doesn't, you know he was waking because he was hungry

[Badgerino]

Loved that video! Thank you. 

Friday naps were 8 45 - 10 & 2.15 - 3.45
Saturday naps were 9.15 - 10.25 & 2.15 - 3.15 but then got him back to sleep 3.45 - 4.30

I think getting that later nap section yesterday made a lot of difference.

Feeds during the day are now on first waking, then before naps and bed and that is it. His solid intake has really increased  (blw). He ate an enormous amount of roast dinner yesterday.

We haven't tried the expressed bottle. I think you are right that needs to be our next step. not sure if we will be able to try it until next weekend now. Will need to check with hubby. i will persevere with wake to sleep in the meantime though.

[Badgerino]

One thing that is probably worth mentioning is that it is often difficult to get him to focus and take a big feed before BT.

This eve was particularly bad. He is typically more interested in chewing his snuggie dog or sleeping bag or just generally dangling off my lap upside down.

Any thoughts?

our evenings look like this:

4.50 dinner
5.30 bath *lots & lots of splashing so Def doesn't count add wins down!
5.45 dry off & massage in dimly lit bedroom with star projector on (no toys allowed but he'll usually grab a muslin or his jammies to chew)
5.50 start having a feed where we talk about our day and have a story and feed on both sides.
6.10 turn white noise on, last offer for BF, burp, pick up, pat on back & say "eddie go night night" and pop him down.
I then sit next to the cot very still with my eyes closed with him hand in the cot (he usually rolls to touch me) and after around 20 mins of flapping, chewing snuggie dog and kicking around will drift off.

Tonight i brought everything forward 15 mins as he was tired. I should have done it earlier in hindsight as he was really hyper I had to hold his arms still for a minute as he couldn't seem to calm himself. I let go before he fell asleep as i don't want to introduce a prop but I haven't had to hold him like that in a while.

[newkidontheblock]

it is often difficult to get him to focus and take a big feed before BT.

What's the gap between this feed and the one before? have you tried feeding in a dim,quiet room? I've had to do that since 4 months to get DD to feed properly. I had a problem with BT feeds too and that was fixed by making sure there was a good 3 hour gap from the previous feed. She would not be hungry enough to nurse well and it was a very frustrating situation.

Do you feel the projector might be winding him up? No BTDT experience here. Our sound machine has a projector too but it is way too exciting for her. What happens if you PD and leave? With my DD, I generally just hum while nursing her as she is so easily distracted. After I have burped her, I walk a bit talking about our day. I have been trying to introduce story time but a book is too exciting so I have been reciting poetry - not very interested though. Basically I keep it very quick after the nurse - burp, talk softly, into sleep sack, sleepy song, in bed after a kiss.

Your routine seems lovely. Maybe you can try putting down and leaving or gradually moving your chair away?

[Badgerino]

Well! Last night was a bit of an experiment!

First to answer your questions though.

He usually has a feed at 1.30/2ish before his nap and then nothing until his bedtime feed at 6ish, so I would have expected him to be hungry. Whilst he is eating more at dinner (around 5pm) he probably eats less at dinner than he does at lunch and still manages to find room for a full BF after lunch.

I only feed him in his room with the curtains pulled now for exactly that reason. Trying to feed him anywhere else is chaos as he tries to rubberneck around.

I dont think the projector is too stimulating, he tends to ignore it in favour of trying to grab something to chew at the moment!

So back to last night!

He was a bit off his milk yesterday (he was a bit constipated so I assume that was the reason), so I ended up pumping around 5oz. I decided to try bottle feeding him during the night rather than add it to the freezer stock of ebm.

He didn't take much milk before his afternoon nap, but had a half decent feed just before bedtime (but still not as much/as long as he used to).

So I put him down at about 6.20 and tried moving my chair a bit further away from the cot to do things gradually, he had a good old flail around and then a lot of straining noises.... so a nappy change later he is still pretty wired and rapidly getting overtired from flailing around.

I picked him back up and got him to take a little more milk and hoped that doing the burp, pat, put down "Eddie go night night" would help break the hyper cycle. It did help slightly, but he was still very active. I ended up moving my chair back next to the cot and put my hand on his chest to try stop things getting any worse. In the end he drifted off at 7.20!! The latest since we have moved bath forward to 5.30.

I was certain I was in for an evening of him waking every hour.

He actually slept until 9.30 when I sent hubby in to settle him as I find if I go in that close to his usual 10.30 window he decides it is milk time and all hell breaks loose until I feed him. So hubby got him to settle and I decided to risk getting my head down for what I thought would be an hour.

He slept until midnight! Yeah!!

At midnight I offered him the bottle of expressed milk. He was not impressed! He faffed around for a bit but when it became clear I wasnt going to BF (I was also wearing one of hubby's t-shirts over my own pajamas to try throw him off the scent!) he took a tiny amount, then wasnt interested. I put him back down and he grumbled and whinged for a bit but then drifted off. 5 minutes later he woke up and wouldnt be soothed. So I got him up, offered the bottle, he took a tiny bit, lost interest, so back down he goes. After 5 minutes of sleep he wakes again (you can see where this is going!). This time he took about 1oz, maybe a little more, but when I put him back down he went to sleep, this was 1.30am!

Until 4.30!! Yeah!!

We repeated the above at 4.30 but only had to put him down and get him back up once and he took just over 2oz. He really didnt want to settle though, but finally drifted off at 5.10.

Unfortunately he then woke up at 5.50 wide awake.

I then cheated a bit (I admit I did this yesterday as he was very upset with his tummy from 5.30am on Monday morning) but I laid down with him on the mattress on the floor and we went back to sleep together until 7. He didnt want any of the milk this time, until we got up at 7 and he took a nice big BF then. Doing this two days on the bounce is bound to bite me in the bum tomorrow when he wants to do the same, but one battle at a time! At least tomorrow we don't have anything planned so I can try to address it.

But the bottle was a big success! It proved to me that he isnt hungry in the night, and the wake up times also proved that it isnt habit causing him to wake (although 4.30 is a recurring time so possibly). I am putting my money on it being comfort. He just wants some sleepy feedy snuggles.

I am going to try it again tonight. Thank you for suggesting it! I think hubby is pleased as he thinks he has dodged a bullet as we had spoken about him trying him with a bottle this coming weekend when he doesnt have to get up for work. Let's hope we have some progress by then.

[newkidontheblock]

My gosh! This was quite a read. You and DH are real champs for persevering, especially in the MOTN.

Whilst he is eating more at dinner (around 5pm) he probably eats less at dinner than he does at lunch and still manages to find room for a full BF after lunch.

Maybe reduce evening solids a bit? You want him taking more milk. It is possible that the food is digesting slower here because not much movement and also he is sleepy so feeding less.

Glad you were able to figure out about the hunger & habitual waking. Rooting for you!

[Badgerino]

Well hello!

It has been a few days, and so far I feel like we are making progress.

We had a bad few nights towards the end of last week and I realised that enough was enough with the prop of having to keep holding his arms. It was like we were going backwards again.

So Friday night I did the usual bed time routine, said "Eddie go night night", gave him a kiss and popped him down.  I then sat next to the cot with my eyes closed and just reassured him verbally. No touching. No looking, nothing. An hour and a half of him being very upset later and he was asleep. It was AWFUL.

He woke twice in the night, the first time we were up for best part of two hours, as I wouldn't hold his arms. The next waking was about an hour.

Saturday night he went to sleep after an hour of being upset. Hubby did his first ever night shift with the monitor! He woke twice and was back to sleep within 15 minutes! In all honesty I felt pretty awful about this as I became convinced it was me that is causing the problems as he went back to sleep so easily when hubby went in.

Sunday night we had about an hour of being upset, I was back on night duty. Two wakings, 15 minutes each in total, including offering the bottle, not being interested and back to sleep! That made me feel so much better to know these night time shenanigans aren't my doing. Hubby was also pleased as he was worried night shift would become his from now on!

Tonight I put him in his cot awake at 6.30, he was asleep by 6.45 with no crying or being upset! I even moved the stool a bit further away from the cot! I am so proud! I hope for a similar number and duration of waking as last night.

Am I being naive in hoping that with removing the night time BF and now getting him going to sleep on his own, with time the wakings will stop? They have been at different times each night so far, but I am still keeping track to look out for any patterns that might show habit.

I am just so chuffed at how quickly he went down tonight plus the last two night's wake up durations. He actually had 11 hours sleep last night!!! Incredible! I feel like I could manage on only two wake ups if they carry on being like this. Hopefully this isnt the kiss of death for tonight!

Sorry for another essay, just super proud. 

[newkidontheblock]

Keep the essays coming. Lovely to read about your progress. You and DH really need a pat on the back! Amazing!

Am I being naive in hoping that with removing the night time BF and now getting him going to sleep on his own, with time the wakings will stop?

Only time will tell. The hope is that if he realises that there's no food in the night, he will up his intake in the day. Have you spaced out those feeds? Also, if he learns to sleep on his own, then he won't need to nurse to sleep. So one way or the other, this can only help matters. Of course, if he isn't taking enough milk during the day, he will still wake to nurse at night to get in the calories.

Xx