27 mth old sleep all over the place

[patsy32]

Hi Ladies,
Really would appreciate your help and advice on my DD1's sleep as it's just gone to pot lately. It all started last October with a mix of nap regression and all 4 2yr molars coming up at once. Ever since then we have never been able to get back on track and it's gradually getting worse. I can't tell if she's OT /UT or both even! ! I've kept a record of her sleep for the past 3 weeks and was hoping you lovely ladies might be able to see what I can't!
To give you a rough idea,  before all this started you could set your watch by her
WU - 7.15
nap - 1.50 -3.20
BT - 7.45
STTN
Then we had nap resistance in cot and all naps are now Apop'd in the car . Routine for past month has been really all over the place . 3 wks ago we were getting this
WU - 7.45/8.00
Nap - 2.40 - 3.40
BT - 7.45
We had long nw's every 2nd night which resulted in ending up in our bed or resettling after we went into her 2-3 times .
Following night was usually a sttn I assume due to nw the night before so after nearly 2 wks of the above I cut the nap to
Wu - 7.30
Nap - 2.50 - 3.35
BT - 7.45
1 brief nw each night to start and then a few sttn. After a few days of this we had the time change an hr later and 3 day's late pick up from creche so routine was
wu- 7.40/8.00
Nap - 3.50- 4.10
BT - 8.00
1st 2 nights STTN , 3rd night nw -11.30 ended up in our bed and unsettled from 5.00-5.50 am. Resettled again until 8.40 am. I resorted back to 45min naps as felt 20 min was to little but last few days due to Easter break and visiting etc have resulted in this
WU - 7.30 - 8.00 am
Nap - 2.50 - 3.30 or 3.00 - 3.30
BT - 7.50 - 8.10
Not falling asleep till 8.20/8.30  and either 12.30an nw which DH can resettle her after a few min or sttn.
Today went like this
WU - 7.30
Nap - 3.00 - 3.30
BT - 7.55
Asleep - 8.35
Singing and talking for 20 min and then crying for last 20
min!!
Basically I've tried every change I can think of in the last few weeks. Seems to work for a night or so and then back to start again.
What do you ladies think or see that I'm doing wrong. 7 mths of guessing and reguessing myself . Thinking I've got it right then it all goes horribly wrong again. Should I keep nap or get rid. Make it earlier or later, longer or shorter.  Jesus I feel I'm letting this poor child down so much by not providing her with the best sleep possible.
Please if anyone can advise or suggest anything I would be so grateful for it.
I should add that she likes a long am A time - 7 hrs and shorter pm A time. All nw's start at roughly 12.30 am!
Thanks again Ladies and apologies for such a long winded rant. Congratulations if you made it this far without dying of boredom from my saga......
Nap -

[jessmum46]

Hugs, you must be tired!

Have you ever tried a no nap day (NND)? Bear in mind this is coming from the perspective of one whose DD gave up napping entirely by 29 months, but to be honest it looks to me like your DD is doing pretty well on a very small amount of daytime sleep and it may be worth a shot throwing in some NNDs just to see. 

I can tell you how we handled this stage just in case it helps, although there are many different routes through the 1-0: The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

DDs routine was not dissimilar to your LOs although an hour earlier so WU 6.30/7 and bed 7pm.  We attempted a nap in bed every day, put her down at 1.30pm and got her up after 45 mins if not asleep.  Some days she did nap, others not.  If she did fall asleep it was closer to 2pm usually and we would wake by 2.45/3pm.  If she napped bt was 7pm, if not 6.30pm.  If she hadn't napped for a day or two and was clearly getting tired (usually showed in increased tantrums or more NWs etc) then we would head out in the car around 3pm and let her have 20 mins just to get her through to bedtime.  I found letting her have any longer she was awful to wake but 20 mins just took the edge off to avoid OT at bedtime. 

I will be honest - we did have NWs a lot of nights at this age and stage.  It was annoying but some sleep disturbance is inevitable as you approach major nap transitions.  If she is settling reasonably quickly then it may just be something you have to ride out for now.  Do you use a Gro clock or similar to reinforce night time?  Can you also talk to her about how night is for sleep and everyone needs to rest?  With my DD we have practised finding her teddies (under covers, on floor etc) in case they get lost and done things like put a spare pair of socks next to her bed in case the ones she has on have fallen off.  Tried to minimise reasons for calling us even if she does happen to wake.

What do you think?

[patsy32]

Hi Jessmum,
Thanks so much for your reply and advice.  We've only ever had 1 nnd about 2 mths ago. went for an ebt and got an 11 hr night but I have never deliberately done a nnp  (to afraid if I'm honest )
From what I  can see looking back on her sleep diary; a 1 hr nap was causing long nw's and subsequently causing a  sttn the following night as she was obviously tired enough.
A 45 min nap was fine for a few days but due to work hrs changing for a while we didn't get to stick with it long.
A 20 min nap worked great for 3 nights and then we got the nw's again  (would this be OT build up? )
A 30 min nap is resulting in staying awake a good 30 min after BT putdown which means she's doing a 13 hr day on a 30 min nap and a 10.5 hr night!
BT is always around 7.45pm and the nw's are alway around 12.30 am. They start off by her been restless and moaning and very quickly turn into full on crying and calling for Mum/Dad.Ending up in our bed as a result or sometimes she'll resettle after DH goes in to her for a while. Is this ot/UT would you think?
Wu this morning was 6.50 am other mornings it's 7.40 or even 8.0000.  Each day is different from the last so I'm not sure what I should be doing here!
I'm afraid cutting the nap will end up in major ot drama but if I'm brave enough, how long of a day should I Aim For To Start With or suggested BT?
Thanks again and sorry for bombarding you with so much stuff.
Also dd is full of beans around the hse but after a 6.5/7 hr morning A time she'll be asleep within 10 min in the car. Am I just really forcing a nap that she doesn't seem to need or is the fact she's taking a nap so easily around this time a sign she still needs it? No way will she nap in cot so nap is always apopd in the car!  That's why I am wondering if I'm kinda forcing the nap but still I feel she'll crumble without it after a few days 

[patsy32]

Just to keep updated on our situation,  yesterday I had to work a bit late so our day went like this
WU - 6.50
Nap - 3.50 - 4.10
BT - 7.55
STTN   

Today went like this so far
Wu - 7.50
Nap - 3.45 - 4.15
BT - ??
Any suggestions ladies what I should do for bt tonight?
I should note that her nap is usually earlier in the day around 2.45/3.00 pm and we can revert back to that time from next week onwards.
My question is what do you all think, should I continue on with this later shorter nap and aim to drop the nap soon. How do I avoid OT building if so or do I continue with an earlier 45min nap?
Gosh I'm really not sure what to do for the best here. Last week after 2 nights of the later 20 min nap the 3rd night was a disaster with nw's! I did stick with our usual BT of 8.00 pm but maybe I should have done ebt! ! Just don't know. Any advice please!

[patsy32]

So yesterday went like this
WU - 7.50
Nap - 3.45 - 4.15
BT - 8.15
Nw - 11.50
After 3/4 failed attempts at resettling she ended up in our bed again. not sure what time she actually fell asleep at as I passed out myself before her but I think it could have been sometime around 12.30 /12.45 am and Wu this morning was 8.10 am
what would anybody suggest,  is this ot or UT behaviour?
Any suggestions for today also. Should I try a nnd or a short 15/20 min catnap?
Thanks again for any advice or suggestions. Much appreciated 😆

[jessmum46]

A 20 min nap and 13h day got you a great night, 30 min nap and 12.5h day led to NWs.....personally if she is managing today I'd try a NND and 6.30/7pm bedtime depending on how she is managing.  What do you think?

[patsy32]

I've bit the bullet and no nap today!  Can't believe I'm actually doing this. I've spent the last 27 mths obsessed with getting as much sleep as possible 
on the other hand, she's home from creche,  had some dinner and is happily chatting with her dolls in the garden So that's encouraging.
can I just ask to be double sure, would you suggest just 20 min nap every 2nd /3rd day depending on how she's coping  and also should that be later in evening say 3.45 pm ish?
Thanks again for all your help and advice Jessmum, I really appreciate it
fingers crossed for STTN and I'll keep you posted how we get on or Not 

[jessmum46]

Eek good luck!  To reassure you our first NND was at 22 months

I think we started off with a NND once or twice a week, you may find she is extra tired tomorrow so needs a bit of a nap so just play it by ear.  Definitely offer a nap if she is struggling, you could do a slightly longer one earlier in the day if she seems to need it or just a quick power nap in the afternoon if she is ok.  No particular time really if it's just a catnap, it's just to get you through without major meltdown xx

[patsy32]

Ok so it wasn't as bad as I would have imagined. In fact it went quiet brilliant
Wu - 8.10 am
BT - 7.25 pm
Nw - 9.25 pm ( asleep within a few minutes of me going to her and putting my hand to her head).
Wu - 7.15 am 
a tad  bit tired this morning but nothing major at all. I ll try for a small nap later on today depending on how she's coping.
Thank you sooooo much Jessmum.  Don't think I would have braved it on my own! Great to have some advice and support x

[jessmum46]

Hey that's great! . See how she goes, may be worth heading out in the car around 3ish just to give her the option to snooze if needed, I'd do 20 mins or so and then aim for a 12.5-13h day if she's doing ok xx

[patsy32]

We had visitors here today so it ended up been a 10 min snooze at 4 pm and I'm going to aim for 7.30/7.45 pm Bt.  Do you think this would be ok?
She's been in good form all day but mind you her cousins have kept her busy and entertained all day.
really hope I didn't mess things up by doing that 10 min at 4pm
thanks again for you advice x

[patsy32]

Any suggestions for today please? Yesterday went fantastic
Wu - 7.15 am
Nap - 4.00 - 4.10 pm
Bt - 8.00
Sttn 

Wu - 8.00 am
With an 8.00 am WU this morning should I offer a nnd do you think? Worried that a nap might push BT later or am I going to cause her to be OT by not offering a nap! Maybe a sort cn early in the day! Oh really don't want ruin it now as she's done great the past 2 days and nights.
any suggestions? ?

[jessmum46]

With that WU I would probably go NND again with a 6.30/7pm BT.  If she is really struggling then you could do the quick power nap again but keep to a normalish BT and hopefully that will mop up any OT x

[patsy32]

She fell asleep in the car at 2.45 pm so I gave her a 20 min nap, going to aim for a 7.45 BT and hope for the best!! Thanks again for all your help. Really appreciate it x

[jessmum46]

Good luck for bedtime .