20mo only averaging 9 hours sleep a night - phase or take action?

[KatyBee]

I have found the information on the forum so useful since my son was born, as his sleep has always been a challenge - but we've hit a particularly rocky patch and i'd be very grateful of some BW wisdom to know if I just need to wait out yet another phase/sleep regression, or whether there is something I can do (that I haven't already tried) to help my son get more sleep?

After a very rocky 2-1 transition, between 14-17.5mo my son was falling asleep independently, STTN for just over 11 hours and taking a nap of 1-1hr30 late morning. His wake time was fairly consistently 5hr30-5hr45 over that period, and he slept best after a 12.5 hour day.

At 17.5 months his molars started their appearance and we had a phase of of NWs and he wanted to breastfeed at night again (which is fine by me if it helps him), I also started working part time so put down some of the disruption to us being apart regularly for the first time. His total overnight sleep was still 10.5hrs or more though.

Then the 18mo sleep regression seemed to hit and we started to get bedtime resistance, up to 3 hour nightwakings or he STTN for 8-10 hours and he wakes, wide awake, between 4-5am and it is impossible to resettle him. HIs total overnight sleep has dropped to between 8 and 10 hours... usually around 9hrs.

When he wakes in the night, he is generally fairly happy and chatting away, although last night he woke very upset 4 hours after bedtime, I gave meds as he had been chewing a lot yesterday, and once those kicked in he was wide awake and chatty for 1.5 hours - he just tossed and turned. This is becoming a regular pattern although the time he wakes varies, so not a habit & he is still STTN a couple of nights a week - just for short nights.

He is still napping for at least an hour most days - sometimes less, very occasionally much longer - but nothing seems to change the short nights though. However there were 2 random no nap days in the last month, that gave us brilliant nights of 11-12 hours. But with the shorter and shorter nights there is no way to do many of these as other days he's ready to drop mid morning.

I have never been able to keep to set nap/bedtimes as my son has to be just the right tired to sleep and is very sensitive to being undertired, so if wake up time or nap length very, so does bedtime etc.... so we have always just followed his lead.

His behaviour is swinging between fantastic and seeming to cope with the lack of sleep really well to incredibly difficult and upsetting. His speech is coming on in leaps and obviously there are still teeth to contend with. This is why I don't know whether it is just a phase we need to ride out, or if there is something i'm missing that will help to extend his nights?

After over 2 months of disruption it feels like it is getting much worse, so I just feel like I need another pair of eyes to look at this see if i'm missing something?

I have been giving him early naps to keep his day length reasonable or capping his naps where necessary, because I haven't been able to get him to bed in less than 6 hours wake time from his nap, for the last 6 weeks. It's taken as long as 8 hours some nights. I tried some 45 min naps for a while, but it made no difference either - so i'm stumped.

His total sleep in 24 hours is between 10.5-11 hours - that's not enough is it? I wonder what you would do?

Thanks for reading
x



 

[KatyBee]

my husband just called me to say that my son just tried to fall asleep on the swing at the park at 9:30am this morning after getting up at just before 7am having slept a total of just 9 hours last night - he is obviously exhausted.

I usually just keep him going until a more reasonable nap time of say 11am - then just let him sleep - but i'm not sure if that is the right thing to do, as it's evidently not helping things.

My son generally can do a full A time after even a short catnap, so if he naps in the early morning it usually means a really long and over tired day later on. I tried a super early bedtime a couple of nights ago (after a 6 hour A time from an early nap due to EW) as my son actually asked to go to bed after dinner - and he treated it like a 30 min nap and was then awake 3.5 hours - so actually had a really long day and did another short night.

Any ideas?

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Sweetie,

I have some thoughts but want to check with my fellow moderators for extra eyes. I'll be back soon.

Many ((HUGS))

x.

[creations]

Hi there and welcome to BW forums (ok you are not new but new to posting perhaps )

I read your thread this morning and have been mulling it over. I almost posted earlier but like Vicki I didn't feel 100% sure about my ideas which to be honest were more along the lines of a get-by plan to help you wing it through this tricky phase rather than a 'cure' for the disturbances your DS is experiencing with his sleep - which look to me to be due to 18 month regression, plus possible teething plus likely 21 (ish) month language leap plus possibly working towards early nap drop (has he always been low sleep needs? Did he transition from 3 to 2 or 2 to 1 early?), looks like a great big jumble of 'phase' to me.

You will definitely get support, we'll put our heads together

[KatyBee]

I really appreciate you taking a look at our situation! Reading back, I didn't mean to write such an essay, apologies.

However it is looking like perhaps I wrote at our lowest point at the weekend, as the last 2 days have actually been better (crosses fingers!)

He has napped 2 hours, 2 days in a row (unheard of!) and his nights were 9hr45 with 1 NW and then last night 10hr30 straight through! His speech is really coming on too - so I agree Creations this is probably a jumble  of all sorts of stuff & we just need to ride it out. It just felt nice to share my woes. Thank you just for reading.

[creations]

Ah well, it's good he had 2 improved nights
And you are always welcome to share your woes here!

So, here's what I was going to suggest.
In the short term, to help you get through the phase, give a long nap and suck up the 9hr nights (because he is not doing longer regardless) so something like:
WU 6
nap 12 - 2
BT 9 (or 8pm if nights are getting longer)
which I realise doesn't look good but gives a steady 11hr sleep in 24 (might lengthen after the language leap) and might help his mood. It covers the given stipulations which from memory were 6 hrs A to nap, 6-8 A to BT.
I do think it's a phase but even phases need a way to cope. My thinking is that if you give the nap too early he ends up with far too long a day, OT by BT which may not help with the EW.
I would try again with set nap and BT as closely as you can (moving BT earlier if nights are lengthening in general rather than a one off) so he has a chance to regulate his sleep and knows when the S times are coming.

FWIW our journey towards nap drop involved 9hr nights, which was when I started altering his routine to accommodate. As it turned out mine could not cope with capped naps, nor with one off no nap days, so the long nap and short night continued for a while (the night actually lengthened a little again) until he totally dropped the nap, overnight.
Nights (and overall sleep in 24hr) did not lengthen until he had totally dropped the nap and settled into the routine.  After settling we got 12hr nights which is more sleep in 24hr than with nap plus night.  This is quite common.

It does sound like your LO may be moving towards dropping the nap even if this current disruption in a phase of language development etc so maybe keep that in mind over the coming weeks/months if things do not improve.
You may need to look at capping the nap or offering some no nap days to maintain night sleep - or accept shorter night and a well rested toddler - until he can cope with a full nap drop.

We'd be very happy to support you during the transition - even if just to offer hugs and a place for you to off load the frustrations.

[Truly Blessed]

Hello again,

Creations has aired all of my thoughts, it is a very tricky situation. I am very pleased to read that things are currently improving.

I really appreciate you taking a look at our situation! Reading back, I didn't mean to write such an essay, apologies.

No apology necessary, you wrote it really well, and all of it was relevant, so you know our stuff

Here for you Hun, give us your thoughts on what creations said, and remember to let us know if he is a low/average or high sleep needs LO, as that is very relevant.

((HUGS))

x.

[KatyBee]

The support here is fab! Thank you so much for both taking the time to get back to me 

Yes my son is definitely at the low sleep needs end - he has always functioned pretty well on less sleep than other babies his age, and we only got our first 11 hour night at 13mo once we finally dropped the second nap - which was a total revelation! The start of our 2-1 transition was around 9/10 months, although I held out until around 13mo to fully transition as our nights had gotten so short I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Once we did it though it made an amazing difference. I'm not surprised he's started to show signs of the 1-0 transition beginning at all... I just don't relish the next few months 

I would try again with set nap and BT as closely as you can

Great advice! Funnily enough I made this decision myself yesterday! With the 1 hour nap or less he was taking, it was so hard to set them as the overtiredness started taking over - but with the 2 hours I realised it's proving much easier and he seems to naturally be falling into a midday nap and then has gone to bed without much fuss at 8pm the last 2 nights...... so I figured we'd try and keep that going it also matches your suggested 'get by' schedule Creations , so I think we'll definitely try and keep to it as closely as possible.

Nights (and overall sleep in 24hr) did not lengthen until he had totally dropped the nap and settled into the routine.  After settling we got 12hr nights which is more sleep in 24hr than with nap plus night.  This is quite common.

I can totally see this - as the 2 no nap days we had resulted in great, long nights.... I will hold on to that thought during this rocky transition phase then!

We'd be very happy to support you during the transition - even if just to offer hugs and a place for you to off load the frustrations.

Thank you again - you ladies do such a great job and i'm very grateful. He's currently in the middle of what looks like another 2 hour nap - so i think we're on the right track  fingers crossed for more 10.5 hour nights as that makes the whole thing more tolerable than only 8-9 hours!

[creations]

Yeah the short nights are hard aren't they - you get no Y time in the evening to just wind down from the day.

Sounds to me like you are pretty much on the ball with this and have sorted it out without our help
Hope the improvements continue.

[AMJ]

Hi there no advice sorry but just wanted to say that we are going through exact same thing at the moment- 8-9hrs nights and 2/2.5hrs+ naps if I allow and a very grumpy LO who hates it if the nap is capped or uncapped. Huggs ))

[KatyBee]

Wow, really AMJ? That is good to hear because everyone else I've spoken to only experienced a 2 week sleep regression and has no idea what is going on with us! Do you get nightwakings too?

Last night my son woke (I think he was too hot) and initially I got him back to sleep after 25 mins... then he woke again 20 mins later - still hot - & was upset so I got him down to just his vest & gave meds... but then he couldn't sleep. He would lay quietly for a few mins but then start screaming and he got really upset & furious. He actually threw himself over the side of his crib in temper luckily I caught him. We have a mattress on the floor too so we lay on that until he finally fell asleep, but it took a long time and he was either laying very quiet & still with his eyes wide open or screaming his little head off. It was horrible...... long naps have always affected his nights, and I think that's what is happening now!

Do you think I should start capping it?

[creations]

Hows his mood after a capped nap? Many are grumpy on first waking but can be soothed with cuddles and low key time to give them a chance to wake properly, then the rest of the day they are happy.  Some though (mine) are devastated being woken and do not recover the entire day. Spending the entire afternoon with a grumpy LO is no fun and an indicator that capping isn't suitable for that LO.

How long was his nap?
Have you tried capping when he naturally comes into light sleep for a transition, this can be an easier time to wake?

[KatyBee]

If I want to cap a nap I can either let him sleep in the car - & he wakes up just fine after a 40 min sleep cycle or I can b/f him to sleep and that gives us between 50mins-1.5 hours as he wakes naturally when he hits a light phase. It's not often we've actually had to wake him in a deep sleep recently.

He is in the 1st category you give Creations, always been fairly ok even after a catnap of just 20 mins... Very rarely he'll be very upset & it's obvious he needs more & I'm able to resettle him if we are at home.

I'm in 2 minds about capping still though as we've been only been having naps of 50m-1.5hrs this whole 2 months and it hasn't helped the nights very much, at least his mood in the day has seemed a bit improved with the long nap.... not sure what to do really?

[creations]

Was last nights NW, screaming etc, typical? Or could it be teething or the language leap?
There are so many things possible at this age, my thought is it's more likely teething/language which gave such an awful night which means capping the nap will not help (both teething an the lang leap were chocking here, I really couldn't believe a LO could be SO disturbed).  From what you've said I think I'd continue with the longer nap for now.

[AMJ]

Yes we get awfully long NWUs (2-3hrs)with a long nap and/or really EWUs. With a capped nap we get EWUs and then when really OT will have a shorter NWUs until I let her have a long nap and then it starts all over.

I'm sorry to say buy I'm also glad we are not alone cause I was thinking I'm going crazy.

How does your Easy look now with a long nap?