8 month old only napping 30 mins or so following pu/pd

[The bristols]

Hi,

I'm after some advice to extend my lo's nap please. Context being, my lo has had severe reflux, it is usually managed with meds but she can still be symptomatic at times. We were told to keep her upright for 3 hrs following food (!) by a gp but the consultant has said this is excessive. However, as a result she has always fallen asleep on us (being rocked), walked in the pram or in the car for naps. Two weeks ago we started to use the pu/pd method with, for us, cracking results-she falls asleep in the cot! Result! However, she varies how long she will stay asleep for: most of the time it is either 30 or 45 mins. It has been longer on a couple of occasions. (when she slept on me, she sometimes woke at this time but I rocked her back to sleep). She wakes after the short naps full of beans:talking to herself, kicking her arms and legs-happy as Larry. I've left her for 40 mins but she's happy to just entertain herself. I've tried putting a dummy back in, putting my hand on her chest (in and out of her eye line), tried taking her dummy out and back in at varying times before she wakes. She still looks tired when I do eventually bring her down (dark circles around her eyes). Within an hour or so, she's yawning and  rubbing her eyes. I've tried waiting for  the next nap time (3 hrs) after her last nap and tried putting her down as soon as she's shows tiredness cues but currently, with the same result:30/45 mins.
I use a wind down of just walking around the house and then do same routine of putting white noise on, saying 'nan night', humming a lullaby  or two and then darkness for a few minutes, lay her down, sleep bag on, dummy and comforter. Hand on her chest and shhhh if need be ( I know this is meant to disrupt but seems to help??). She will usually turn her head and be asleep within a minute or two.

Night time, she goes down well, she will rarely wake but we do feed once a night under the advice of our hv due to feeding habits during the day. Since the change in nap times she has had varying nights, waking a bit more frequently: she will usually go back to sleep on her own if she just moans, other wise if she cries, we would put the dummy in or ssh her. Both usually work. She is now waking at 5 am and we can't get her to go back to Sleep at this point.

I've read that if she wakes early, to put her to bed early, which we have been doing-usually asleep in cot by about 6-is this right?

I have been put with her and was walking during her sleep times on two occasions and she still only slept for 30/45 mins! This used to be a sure way of long naps!

Weaning has been a bit 'slow' as we started this as she was beginning with a bad attack of reflux so she developed a bit of an aversion as had been bring sick...

Aware the dummy may be a prob but we have told this helps her reflux so not keen on getting rid of this yet.


Our EASY was, prior to using pu/pd on a 4 hr cycle with 2 long sleeps and one cat nap. I'm aware that this could now be just two naps, but to be honest naps are so hit and miss, our 'a' is all over the shop.

Sorry for the long post.... We're so pleased that our lo is finally getting to sleep without being rocked using the pu/pd but now I feel a bit lost with extending naps, activity time due to her being shattered, would really appreciate some advice on how to move forward please.

This is a rough EASY as it can vary from me reacting to her sleep cues or trying to waif a bit longer to her previous 'a' time.
An example

Wake at 5:20
Brought down at 6: bottle (always taken 100ml and then 80/90 30 mins later)
7ish weetabix ( varies if takes this)
Shows signs of tiredness 2 hrs later after waking so usually will start winding down and usually asleep by 2.5 hrs (tried extending this and naps were worse - when rocking used to take ages to get her yo sleep if left longer than 2.5hrs)
8:30 ish wakes
A
E 10 am
A
S today was rubbing eyes excessively and yawning, put her down at 11, fell straight to sleep-woke 30 mins later
E
S 2:30-3
E 3:00
S 6pm

TIA
XX

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there and welcome to BW

Thank you for all the information, it is really helpful in helping us form a view of the whole situation.

I think the answer probably does lie in. Need to extend those A times. It is so hard sometimes as LOs get so tired and it is counter-intuitive to lengthen the awake time to help them become less tired. The theory is that an LO is not quite tired enough to take a long nap, so short naps. This short nap leads to another short nap and then by BT the LO is OT. So you get more and more tired behaviour and many end up keeping the A times shorter to try and reduce tiredness. The LO is tired enough to fall asleep but maybe not tired enough to sleep for a good long nap.

You mention that walking or going out used to be a sure fire way to get a longer nap, I think we found this with or DD too, she eventually reached an age where we was too aware to really settle properly outside of her room, where it was nice and quiet and she could have a proper wind down before dropping off.

Most 8 month olds would be taking only two naps, and I can see from above that you aware the CN would usually have gone by now. I think it wid be worth going for two naps fairly quickly and to see if this would make a difference. You are doing a 2.5 hour A time now, what about trying 3 hour A time?

This would be an average A time for a 6 month old (approx) so it shouldn't be too much and you might see some improvement. So the day might look like:

WU: 6am
Nap 1: 9am to 10.30 (ideally)
Nap 2: 1.30 to 3 pm
BT: 6pm

If she wakes before 6am, don't go to her unless she cries an I need you cry. And if you do need to go to her, treat t like a night waking, use calming reassuring words with a soft voice (something like "it's night time sweetie, time for sleep" something you can repeat at all settling situations and will work for an older child too). Then once you get to your "agreed" WU time (say 6am) then you can get up and open the curtains and be all bright and cheery and start the A time from then.

Once the day pattern and sleep generally is a bit more settled you will probably be able to move the day later.

I know it may seem like she's tired really early in the A time, but these yawns and eye rubbing signs at this age can be just an indicator of a need to change scene, or a build up of OT from the UT naps (if that makes sense). So if she starts showing tired signs too early for the new A times then pick her up and go for a wander in the garden if it's not too cold, or around the house otherwise and quietly point things out to her to keep her occupied for a bit.

Once the 3 hour easy is in place, if you're still getting short naps you may need to lengthen those A times a little more. But this shod help to start with.

What do you think?

[The bristols]

Hi,

Thank you very much for getting back to us so quickly. Some great tips.

Just wondered if you could clarify-so as lo's A time is too short, she doesn't sleep long enough so she will then be tired so you try a shorter A time again and maintain a cycle of UT and finally OT-shoukd she not be tired enough from the 1st shorter nap for the 2nd nap? Apologies, I'm just trying to get my head around it?

We've tried the 3 hour and for some reason, her naps have got shorter. She only slept for 15 minutes yesterday. Today back to the 25 and then the 15 minutes. She looks absolutely shattered. Completely understand the need to extend the A time but just concerned that we are getting more and more OT. What do you think?

Thank you for help

[Buttonbobs]

Could you post your EAS for that day so we can take a look at to. Was it just the one day you did 3hour easy?

It is tricky when they are OT. You are right that I was advising you to try a longer first A time. If you get a shorter nap then try and extend the nap using shh pat or pupd. If you can't extend it then you will need keep an eye out for her getting tired earlier on in the next A time. I'll be able to comment more specifically if you can keep posting your days as they happen

[The bristols]

Hi,
Apologies for just responding. LO has had a chest infection and sleep/naps have been all over the place. Confession time- I was that concerned that LO was ill and not getting enough sleep to recover and LO looked so tired her under eyes were purple 😔 we have started accidental parenting with a capital AP: we've been rocking to extend the naps from 30 minutes 😁😁😁 and when waking early, after the ssshh pat etc, rocking again.

WT has been anything between 2.40 and 3:40. So we are all over the place. She's starting to get better so happy to start a fresh with it really.

This was yesterday's easy (not sure if helpful as is so Varied at the mo!)

Woke at 4 for a feed (we have to keep upright due to reflux so fell asleep in arms). Put in cot at 5-woke 5 mins later. Rocked to sleep, woke at 6.
E: Milk 6:30
    B'fast 8:00
A: 6:45-8:50 wind down
S: fell straight to sleep 9-9:30. Wakes rolls onto side. Kicking legs in air. Whining.
Rocked 😁 to sleep. Slept on me for 1.5 hrs until 11:30.
E: 11:45 solids
    13:15 milk
A: 12:00-3:00
S: seemed hugely OS by grandparents. Would not settle in the cot. AP: rocked to sleep. Slept on me 45 mins until 4:44.
E Milk and dinner 4:50
A
E milk 6. Asleep 6:30.

Other context is that has been waking ab hour after bed time and at different points at night. Have put this down to being unwell and also read that a dreading sleep regression kicks in between 8-10 months. LO is 8.5 months.

Thank tou for your help so far. Just wondering where you think we should start?

[Buttonbobs]

Hi lovely,

Well first thing, don't feel guilty about the APOP when she was ill. Sometimes it is necessary and it would have given her comfort so I think this is worthwhile.

Those NWs could be developmental, they could be a sleep regression, but they can also be OT. It wouldn't be surprising if she was a bit Ot following illness. I also think that you might need to do a bit of sleep training to get out of the holding/rocking to sleep prop that might have developed a bit while you were helping her sleep.

How long has she been taking two naps? The A times are on the slightly lower side and it might be that if she's been on two naps for a while you'll need to stretch those A times a little longer. The average is 3 plus hours at this point. Has she always preferred a shorter first A time? It might just be that she's more tired as a result of her illness so is needing even shorter As.

Do you think she and you are ready to start some gentle ST starting at the first nap so you use methods other than APOP to settle her back down if she wakes early from the nap, and continue using the same method for the rest of the wakings from nap and BT? If so, what has worked for you before? Pat shh or PUPD? Have a read here:
Shush-pat - How to
Can a baby be too old for sh-pat?
Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

I mention pupd to be complete but as she has reflux I would be cautious about using this as it can make reflux symptoms worse.

I would stick at 2.5 hrs for that first A initially but if the ST doesn't help you may need to extend this towards 3 hours in order to prevent OT.

Also, you mention she's waking when she rolls over, is this a new skill she's learning? If so, can you give her as much practice in the daytime as possible as this may make the learning phase pass quicker.

Another thought. You mention reflux, is she on medication for this and has the dose been increased or checked revently?