Not sure what to tackle first and where to start with 3.5 month old

[Joy-filled]

I’m not sure where to start.  DD (3.5 months) only naps in a wrap.  I try for one nap/day in the crib but have had no success.  Eventually I gave up on trying to get her to fall asleep in the crib and just rocked her to sleep and then tried to transfer in the hopes I could at least get a 25 min break if she happened to stay asleep in the transfer.  But she wakes up most of the time so there’s not much point in that.  BT we sometimes succeed with her falling asleep independently (swaddled, soother, fan and darkened room) after replugging the soother 10-30 times and some crying.  She has not responded to sh-pat at all and prefers to fall asleep on her own with the soother.  Sometimes she won’t settle though so we eventually rock to sleep. She’s been amazing at night for some reason and will only wake 2-3 times but lately has been waking more. We're a bit concerned about this as she seems to be getting more dependent on her soother  .

We are getting weary of carrying her for every nap and would like her to learn to nap in her crib and fall asleep independently.  I’m not sure where/how to start.  I tried sh-pat today for her one-crib attempt and it was a fail.  She started out calm but after replugging the soother 10 times she was OT and I couldn’t get her to calm down.  She was hysterical and now very OT so I gave up and put her in the wrap.  She usually cries very hard for her naps even though she’s in a wrap, has a soother, I bounce and cover her eyes.  I don’t know why she won’t calmly fall asleep even with so much APOP.  Sometimes I know it’s because she’s OT from short naps but other times I can’t see any reason for it. 

So, options I see:
1)   Keep only trying for one nap a day in the crib using sh-pat and replugging soother – if I do this after how much time do I give up and have mercy on her OTness?
2)   Try sh-pat for all BT and naps and don’t give up until she’s fallen asleep in the crib?
3)   Make sure routine is right first?
4)   Give up on IS and try again when she’s older?

[katie80]

Hi Char, sorry you haven't yet had a reply.

So, options I see:
1)   Keep only trying for one nap a day in the crib using sh-pat and replugging soother – if I do this after how much time do I give up and have mercy on her OTness?
2)   Try sh-pat for all BT and naps and don’t give up until she’s fallen asleep in the crib?
3)   Make sure routine is right first?
4)   Give up on IS and try again when she’s older?

Well, it is very important to be working on a right routine while working on independent sleep. It sounds like something very well could be off, as you struggle so much to get her to sleep. Would you please post her routine to take a look at?

I think it's definitely worth continuing to try with settling her in the crib for one nap a day if you are desiring a break from carrying her. Is it a consistent nap you try for (i.e. always the first nap)? And how long do you try for? There will likely be some OT in the process, so you do need to be prepared for that. If you continually stop trying to settle her for fear of OT, I think she will come to expect that. It's also worth it to note that some babies never take to shh-pat, so you might try shh-rub or laying a firm but gentle arm across her from one hip to the other shoulder and patting or rubbing the shoulder. How does she do in the wind down, are you able to get her quite drowsy?

Finally, just want to make sure you don't suspect any reflux or intolerances that could be making things more difficult?

[Joy-filled]

No worries about the delay.  Liz gave some insight on the PUPD board as I'd posted there a few days ago but then decided to move over here (don't worry, I'm not doing PUPD with a 3 month old).  Since my issue is a sleep/routine one I'll leave the PUPD thread. 

I suspected silent reflux a few weeks after she was born as we had major crying and sleep issues and she was clearly in pain.  After ruling out intolerances and OALD I finally figured out she had a lip and posterior tongue tie causing her to swallow tons of air when she BF'd so she was in great gas pain and refluxing a lot.  Once the ties were released there was a huge improvement in her happiness.  But I still wondered about the reflux so we trialed Ranitidine and it actually made a huge difference so she does have silent reflux but it seems very well managed with the meds.  I don’t even raise her mattress or change pad anymore and she’s fine with that as she sleeps very well at night in her crib.  Anyway, due to her issues we didn’t force the crib because it was clear she needed to be upright and she was in pain.  But now that that isn’t an issue anymore….I’m here and hoping to decrease the APOP ☺ .

I realized today that I think it has been a routine issue and she needs a bump in A times but I didn’t realize it because she was yawning at 55 min like clockwork but she was doing it because that’s what she was used to, not because she was ready to go down.  So I started trying to bump her A times today.  So far today she’s had way less crying on route to the nap.  Still short-napping the same but she tends to do a catch-up nap in the afternoon. I think once I get her routine sorted out better I’d really like to try again to get her in the crib for at least one nap a day as my back would LOVE a break from carrying her.  And I would love some time with my toddler or perhaps even to myself (!).

I started logging a few days ago so I'll just copy and paste it here (sorry if it's too much info!)

April 13 – Day: 5hr5, Night = 10hr25, Total = 15.5 hr
WU woke her at 7:45
E 8:00
A 1hr20
S 9:05-9:50 (in wrap, 45 min woke crying, clearly still tired but couldn’t resettle)
E 10:00
A 1hr5
S 10:55-1:25 (2.5hours)
E 1:25
A 1hr30  (waited until 1hr10 to put in wrap, lots of crying and then a short nap)
S 2:55-3:40 (45min woke crying)
E 4:00
A 1hr25 (very hard time going down, lots of crying)
S 5:05-6:10 (1hr5)
E 6:25 and 7:10
A 1hr35
BT Put in crib at 7:30 did sh-pat for a few min then left, just had to replug soother asleep 7:45)
Night 7:45-7:40 (NW 12:45-1:15 had to replug soother 20x, NF 3:45-4:45, woke happy at 7:40)

April 14, 2015, Day = 5hr, Night = 10, Total = 15hr
WU 7:40
E 7:45
A 1hr 20 (put in wrap at 55min A time as yawning at 50 min, cried very hard with eyes closed)
S 9-10:10 (1hr10 in wrap, woke crying)
E 10:15
A 1hr20 (put in wrap at 1hr, cried fairly hard, woke a few times before settling)
S 11:30 -12:10 (40 min in wrap, woke cryng hard, able to resettle 12:20-12:40 (20 min), woke as I disturbed her, crying hard, unable to resettle) 40+20 = 1hr
E 1:05
A 1hr20 (tried to put in crib at 50 min as yawning d/t short nap, tried sh-pat calm at first so just replugging the soother but escalated until hysterical for 10 min so gave up and put in wrap as super OT)
S 2-2:25 (in wrap woke crying, resettled) 2:30-4:20 = 25+1hr50 = 2hr15
E 4:30
A 1hr40 (yawning and then fussing at 1hr5 A time so put in wrap but tons of crying, falling in and out of sleep until finally settled at 6)
S 6-6:30 (30 min)
E 7:10 put in crib 7:45 some crying, repugged soother 12x then asleep
BT 8:10 NW 12:30-12:45 (replugged soother a few times), 2:25-2:35, NF 3:20-3:50 WU 7:50 – woke happy

Apr 15 – day: 4hr, night 10hr = 14hr
WU 7:50
E 8:00
A1hr45 (put in wrap at 1hr as yawning and fussing, couldn’t settle, crying very hard sometimes very suddenly as though in pain?)
S 9:35-10:30 (in wrap woke at 55 min couldn’t resettle)
E 10:55
A 1hr30 (put in wrap at 1hr5, she was calm but eventually got upset as not sleeping)
S12-12:30(30 min, couldn’t resettle)
E 1:10
A  1hr30 (no signs of tiredness but put in wrap at 1hr10, fussing and crying after a few min)
S 2:00 until 3:45 – 1hr45 (in wrap)
E 4:00
A 1hr20
S 5:05-5:50 – 45min (in wrap)
E 7:00
A  2hr10!
BT PD at 7:20, calm at first but then crying and escalating.  Took 30 min of replugging soother and picking up for her to settle.  Alseep 8:00.
NW 12:45, 1:45, 2:00 ; NF at 2:20, NW 5:50 rocked back to sleep until woke at 7:05 happy – 10hr?

Apr 16
WU 7:05
E 7:15
A 1hr20
S didn’t resist nap or cry at all 8:25-9:00 (in wrap, woke crying hard) = 35 min
E 9:30
A 1hr20
S 10:20-10:50 (30 min in arms, unable to resettle)
A 1hr15
E 11:30
S 12:05-2:10 (2hr5 in wrap – I accidentally woke her and she wasn’t happy)
E 2:30
A 1hr30
S 3:40-4:25 (45 min)....

[Domestic Engineer]

It sounds like the pacifier is a prop for your baby, as she needs you to put it  back in over and over and over. I would stop giving the pacifier.

As for your routine, it looks pretty good overall. Some of the activity times might be a little long - like the first one. Maybe you should try putting her down 10-15 minutes earlier? Also, a 2.5 hour nap in the afternoon is too long. It does make for the right amount of total daytime sleep, because her earlier naps are so short, so I don't know whether you should wake her up earlier at that point or not, but hopefully if you can get her to nap longer in the morning she will nap shorter in the afternoon. That long of a nap might make it difficult for her to take her next nap, too.

She's kind of in between a 2 and 3-hour EASY, but she should be solidly on 3, working toward 4 hours by 4 months.

If it were me, I would choose option 2 - get her to go to sleep in her crib for every nap and every night sleep, all at once, using the wind-down and the shush-pat. I think that will have the fastest overall results. But you would have to be up for some trying days during the transition, and you might choose a more gradual method instead. Some babies will do fine with one nap in the crib and one in the wrap each day, but some might refuse to learn to nap in the crib if they're still getting to nap in the wrap sometimes, because they don't know the difference between the naps.

[Joy-filled]

Yes, I know we're in between a 2-3 hr EASY but I don't know how else to cope with the short naps.  I feed her after 2-2.5 hrs after a short nap because I don't want her to wake from her next nap because she's hungry.  I've been trying for a 3+ hr EASY but just can't get there.

BT was quite poor tonight. She was clearly OT.  I'll keep an eye out for the long afternoon nap causing problems but today she easily took short naps after a 2hr5 min catch-up nap.  So a 35min and 30 min nap in am, 2hr5min nap early aft followed by a 45 min late aft nap and a 30 min CN.

I know the paci has become a prop recently but I'm very afraid to stop it.  It's been a very difficult last couple of months due to her physical issues and I feel we're still recovering from it.  She's very dependent on it to fall asleep.  She wasn't dependent on it to SS at night until the last few nights so that's why we didn't have an issue giving it to her.  And in the wrap it's glued to her the whole time.

Are you sure she's old enough for option #2?  Perhaps I should wait until she's a bit older?  Also not sure what I'd do with DS (2.5 yrs) with all of the time it would take to do option #2.   

I'm also not convinced our routine is established enough for option #2.  I'm not clear on what her A time needs are. What's the average A time for 3.5 months?  I looked at the sample EASYs and they seem to vary significantly.

[katie80]

Yes, I know we're in between a 2-3 hr EASY but I don't know how else to cope with the short naps.  I feed her after 2-2.5 hrs after a short nap because I don't want her to wake from her next nap because she's hungry.  I've been trying for a 3+ hr EASY but just can't get there.

It's really hard when you have a short napper... all three of mine were from about 2/2.5mo until 5.5/6mo. You can do EASAE, however to extend the feed times. It can get a bit messy and sometimes a feed comes right before a nap, but that's ok.

I know the paci has become a prop recently but I'm very afraid to stop it.  It's been a very difficult last couple of months due to her physical issues and I feel we're still recovering from it.  She's very dependent on it to fall asleep.  She wasn't dependent on it to SS at night until the last few nights so that's why we didn't have an issue giving it to her.  And in the wrap it's glued to her the whole time.

It's totally your choice, hon. Yes, it may be a prop, but in time (usually by 6/7mo), she'll be able to replug on her own and it will then be a comfort item. Pacis can be really good things for reflux babies and if it's comforting to her, then it just might be worth it. You're right that she and you have been through a lot. I think small changes are probably best for now.

Are you sure she's old enough for option #2?  Perhaps I should wait until she's a bit older?  Also not sure what I'd do with DS (2.5 yrs) with all of the time it would take to do option #2.   

She is old enough yes, but you're right it's not all that cut and dry. ST is definitely trickier with a toddler in the mix too. I also think a window opens up when ST gets a little easier around 4/5/6mo. And while it may be true that she could be confused with some naps in the wrap and some in the crib, I will say that I did a mix with both of my boys and there was never any confusion. I napped them both in the wrap or swing for one long nap per day until about 5/6mo. DS1 was a completely independent sleeper for all other sleeps, just a short napper. DS2 was not, but I didn't even have a chance to work on it with him til 6mo. You need to do what you're confident and comfortable with.

I'm also not convinced our routine is established enough for option #2.  I'm not clear on what her A time needs are. What's the average A time for 3.5 months?  I looked at the sample EASYs and they seem to vary significantly.

I would agree. I actually think her A times are still a bit low. At 3.5mo, I would expect minimum of 1h20, but closer to 1h30/40min. Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Also, a 2.5 hour nap in the afternoon is too long. It does make for the right amount of total daytime sleep, because her earlier naps are so short, so I don't know whether you should wake her up earlier at that point or not, but hopefully if you can get her to nap longer in the morning she will nap shorter in the afternoon. That long of a nap might make it difficult for her to take her next nap, too.

I think this is a valid point, but for now with all the other naps short I wouldn't worry about one nap of 2.5hr. As you get closer to 4/5mo, you will probably only be able to get away with a 2hr long nap or cut one of the CNs, but for now I think it's fine.

[Joy-filled]

Thank you for the valuable input! I'm really not ready to deal with the paci as I think right now it is more help than harm.  That will likely change in the future but for now I think we'll carry on APOPing.  And thanks for affirming we've been through a lot.  We had 15 appointments in the month of March to try to sort everything out!  It was a lot but worth it  as she is a totally different baby now and cries 95% less than she used to.  So grateful she's not in pain anymore!

As for STing, I think I'll continue naps in the wrap for now and try the crib once a day when DS is napping.  Once she's older we'll work make more of an effort to ST.  For now I'd like to get our routine sorted as I think that's the priority.

Yesterday went rather poorly with all feeds between 2-2.5 hours due to short naps.  I'm finding it quite tricky despite doing EASAE.  It takes 30 min to BF so if she wakes up at 7:15 and feeds, naps from 8:35-9:05, she's due for another nap by 10:15ish as she needs a shorter A time due to the short nap.  Which means I have to feed by her by 9:30 as she'll finish feeding by 10 and then need to go in the wrap for a wind-down.  But that's only 2hr15 min from feed to feed.  And then she short naps again 10:15-11 and is due for a nap by 12:10 so I have to nurse at 11:30 which is only 2 hrs from the last feed.  etc. etc.  This was how the day went today.  I don't know what I could've done differently:

E6:30 (1/2 feed and fell asleep as very tired)   
S 7-7:15 (had to wake her and stop rocking as DS woke and needed "to go pee" )
WU 7:15
E 7:30
A 1hr15
S 8:30-9 (30 min in wrap woke but resettled right away) 9-9:15(DS woke her ) = 45 min total
E 9:45
A 1hr20
S10:35-11:10 (35 min in wrap, unable to resettle)
E 11:45
A 1hr30
S 12:40-1:25 (45 min in car)
A 1hr35
E 2:15
S 3:00-3:45 (45 min in car)   
E 4:30
A  1hr35
S 5:20-5:40 (in wrap at 1hr15 took 15 min to fall asleep for only 20 min, wouldn’t resettle)
A 1hr20
E 6:30
BT 7:00 (fell asleep with only 5 min of fuss!)
Night - 7-7 with one NF! Amazing night considering she got far less sleep than usual during the day as she didn't get her CU nap.

Thoughts on how to get to a 3 hr EASY never mind more than that?

[katie80]

Thoughts on how to get to a 3 hr EASY never mind more than that?

Hmm... I can see how that's tricky with the long time it takes her to eat. I think she's still in need of a little more A time and that will help. It's pretty normal to have a crash out night like she did with only one NW after a day of all short naps, but it could mean that she's needing more A time in general every day.

[Joy-filled]

but it could mean that she's needing more A time in general every day

I've actually started to wonder if that's the case.  She seems to fight her last CN and/or BT the more sleep she's had in the day and I've wondered if that's her way of saying "I haven't been awake enough today to end the day".  The last couple of days have been very wonky due to running errands and yesterday trying her in the church nursery for the first time. She slept maybe 5 min in the nursery apparently which meant she did an A time of 3hr15min with two short 5 min sleeps!  But she then pulled off a 3hr15 min nap to catch up!  What a girl!  It didn't affect her night though as she did a great night again.  So grateful for her nights!

I'm also struggling to get to the 1hr30/40 A time due to short naps.  I'll continue to try for it and see how she responds and report back in a few days.

Thanks again! 

[*Liz*]

Is she wide awake and actively feeding for the whole 30mins?? It just seems quite a long time by this sort of age, although I do appreciate you have had feeding difficulties.

I just remember a similar phase with DS where he would feed and half doze during, and then I could never get the A time right, I think because he was constantly taking the edge off his tiredness when feeding. Regardless of whether that is true or not  , a 30 min BF is still a very low key A time, and again probably supports her need to extend her A to get some more proper active A time in.

My DS2 often short naps in the morning, and I find he does tend to slowly shorten his A times as they day goes on.

I had a much smaller age gap between my first 2 kids (20 months) and I used to do a crib nap during DS's nap. Just that one nap a day worked a charm at getting everything on track later. I've actually been doing similar with DS2, but doing his first nap a day this time for IS, and then I tend to extend the afternoon nap once I know he is def tired.

[Joy-filled]

Yep she's wide awake when she feeds.  Not drowsy at all, smiling at me, looking around, playing with whatever she can touch, etc.  Sometimes it's closer to 20-25 minutes but what extends it is the need to burp mid and post feed.  It takes awhile for her to burp but we have to persist as she still swallows air when she feeds, although it's much less than before the lip and posterior tongue tie releases.

I also try the crib nap during DS' nap.  It's definitely the best time to do it.  And....I am DELIGHTED to report that we had our first success today!!!  She fell asleep in her crib with no fuss/crying!  She hasn't fallen asleep in her crib for a nap in over 2.5 months!  Only slept 30ish minutes but I am ecstatic!

[*Liz*]

Baby steps 

[Domestic Engineer]

Congratulations on the crib nap! It must feel less threatening to you now that she's done it once and you know she can.

It seems to me like the short naps are the primary problem and are throwing everything else off, and that you won't really be able to get a routine right until the naps are longer. So maybe you should think about what's causing the short naps and make that your first goal? I would guess that she probably won't extend naps as long as she's napping in the wrap, and that napping in the crib will be Step 1. Maybe if you can get her to consistently take one nap each day in the crib, then you can add another nap, and another, until she's sleeping full-time in the crib. You have many more techniques available to try to extend naps once she's in the crib, if relocating doesn't solve the problem in itself.

[katie80]

Yay!!

[Joy-filled]

I'm very pleased to say that it seems the "switch" has certainly started to turn when it comes to IS .  I can get DD to nap in her crib for at least one nap a day on a consistent basis and sometimes multiple naps! I have learned that she does not like intervention and far prefers to fall asleep on her own rather than have sh-pat or a hand on the back or anything.  Just a soother that needs to be replugged a few or sometimes several times and she's good to do it on her own (when it works). 

However, I'm struggling to figure out her A time needs. I really think that if I had her A times right then she'd be napping in her crib for all naps and consistently napping longer (still having some short naps).  Our A times seem all over the place and I'm struggling to see a pattern.  I'm putting down 4 days of EAS so you can see the "pattern".  Any thoughts/insights?

Apr 25 – Day = 4 hrs, Night = 11hrs, Total = 15hrs
WU/E 8:15 (woke her)
A 1hr40
S 8:55-9:05 (fell asleep very fast in the crib but woke crying after 10 min and couldn’t resettle so had to put in wrap 9:25 -11:10 = 1+1hr35 = 1hr45
E 11:15
A 1hr55 (Put in crib at Grandma's but wouldn't take it so eventually put in wrap)
S 1:10-2:45 (broken in wrap) = 1hr35
E 3:00
A 1hr10
S 3:55-4:15 (fell asleep within a couple of min in the crib but woke crying very hard, wouldn’t resettle so put in wrap and slept 4:25-4:45 - = 20+20 = 40 min
4:45 (woke her)
E 5:15
A 2hr30 (thought she’d sleep in the car but she just cried so gave up when we got home and went for EBT)
E 7:00
Night – 7:15-8 (several ENWs and NWs but pretty quickly down with soother replugging.  NF 2:30-3:15, 6:45-7.  Rocked back to sleep on breast, woke at 7:30 Total night sleep 11hrs?

Apr 26 – Day = 4hrs, Night = 10.25 Total, = 14.25
WU/E 7:30
A 1hr25
S 8:55-9 (in crib, woke wouldn’t resettle so in wrap), 9:10-10:35 (5+1hr25) = 1hr30
E 10:45
A 1hr20
S 11:55-12 (fell asleep instantly in crib but woke after 5 min and wouldn’t resettle, quite hysterical so put in wrap, asleep 12:10-2:00 = 1hr55 total
E 2:00
A 1hr30
S 3:30-4:10 (in stroller, woke her up) – 40 min
E 4:45
A 1hr25
S 5:35-6:15 (woke her) – 40 min
E 6:25 and 7:30 top up (asking as she didn’t have a full feed last time)
A 1hr45
BT In crib 7:45 didn’t protest, asleep 8-2, brief NW easily back to sleep with soother.  NF 4:15-5, DH accidentally woke her at 7:05.  Night = 10.25hrs

Apr 27 – Day – 3hr35, Night – 11 hrs, Total = 14hr35
WU/E 7:15
A 1hr25
S 8:40-9:45 (fell asleep within minutes in the crib ☺ had to wake her due to appointment ☹) – 1hr5
E 10:20
A 1hr20
S 11:05-12:10 (fell asleep within min in crib) – 1hr5
E 12:30
A 1hr40(put in crib late due to appointment. Asleep within minutes).
S 1:50-2:15 (asleep in crib, woke, couldn’t settle back escalated to hysterical in pain until burped but then couldn’t calm as OT.  Put in wrap.  Seemed to sleep 3-3:10.) = 25+10 = 35ish minutes
E 3:30
A ? Put down at 4:15 and asleep quite easily in a few minutes
S 4:20-4:30, briefly woke, then 4:30-5:10 (asleep in crib) – 50min
E 5:15 (not asking but I had to leave so I topped up)/6:45
A 1hr50 (falling asleep at 1hr35 but had to wait for me to come home)
BT 7:00 fell asleep instantly. Brief NW at 12.  NF 3-3:45, struggling to breathe so a few EMWs. NF 6:30-7 then rocked to sleep 7-7:55 = Night = 11hrs?

Apr 28: Day – 4hr15, Night – 11.5 hrs, Total = 15.75 hrs
WU/E 7:55
A 1hr25 (showing clear tired signs at 1hr20)
S 9:20-9:45 (fell asleep right away in the crib, tried really hard to put herself back to sleep but just couldn’t then escalated) – 25 min
E 10:20
A  1hr35 (showing tired signs at 1hr5 so put in crib but she couldn’t settle so I put in the wrap)
S 11:20-1:20 (in wrap, woke briefly a few times throughout but easily back asleep) – 2hrs
E 1:25
A 1hr30 (Fussing and showing tired signs at 1hr20)
S 2:50-3:15, 3:20-3:40 (fell asleep right away in the crib, woke after 25 but put self back to sleep, woke after 20 and tried very hard to put herself back to sleep but she couldn’t) – 25+20=45min
E 4:15
A Yawning, acting tired and fussing at 1hr.  Fell asleep within minutes but then kept waking every few minutes, crying and back to sleep for about 40 minutes, finally put in wrap and she conked out at 5:30 (1hr40 A time)
S 4:40-5:20 (15 minutes worth of sleep?), 5:30-6:10 = 15+40 = 55 min
E 6:15/7:40
A 1hr40
BT In crib 7:50, asleep within minutes, no fussing at all.  Soother in at 1 and 1:30, NF 3:20-3:50, WU 7:50 = 11.5hrs

[katie80]

TBH, reading and figuring EASYs out at this age is not my strong suit. And I agree with you, a clear pattern isn't noticeable. What I think though, is if you look at the overall picture and take into consideration her age, she's got low A times still and is struggling to stay asleep for long periods of time in the crib. I think those two things suggest UT. She's not getting an overall high amount of sleep, so I don't know that you could call her high sleep needs. So, if she falls in the average sleep needs range, her A times will need to follow the average as well, otherwise you'll likely continue in a difficult UT/OT loop. I would try to push her a little bit and see if working closer to 1h30-45min gets you some more consistent naps. Does that make sense? What do you think?

[Joy-filled]

Thanks for your thoughts!  Perhaps I should post on EASY to get some different eyes on it?  What do you think? I did push a bit more in the past 2 days to 1hr35/45 and it hasn't seemed to help as far as I can see .  Her A times are also low following short naps because I have to shorten it due to short naps. I'm really struggling with knowing is what A time should I use after a 20/30/45 minute nap? What do you think?

Apr 30 Day = 4hr15, Night = 10.5hrs, Total = 14hr45
WU 7:00
E 7:15
A 1hr35
S 8:35-9:40 (pretty easily fell asleep in crib) = 1hr5
E 10:00
A 1hr55 (put down late as we were out but she went down in crib)
S 11:35-1:15 – 1hr45min
E 1:15
A 1hr45
S 3-3:20 (20 min), woke and tried to resettle but couldn’t, eventually hysterical so picked up to rock and slept 3:45-4:25 (in my arms rocking) – 20+40 = 1hr
E 4:45
A 1hr35/2hr10  Clearly tired at 5:55 so put down at 6:00. Asleep for a couple of minutes but woke, struggled, lots of soother replugging, couldn’t settle so had to put in wrap 
S  6:35-7 (in wrap, woke her from a deep sleep) – 25min
E 7:00, top up at 7:45
A 1hr30
BT – In crib at 8, asleep with little fuss by 8:15.  NF 2:30-2:50, 6-6:15, WU 7:20

May 1 Day – 4hrs, Night – 11 hrs Total=15hrs
WU 7:20
A 1hr45 (fell asleep right away in crib)
S 8:45-9:30 (in crib, tried to put herself back to sleep but couldn’t) – 45min
E 10:00
A 1hr20
S 10:50-11:10 (20 min), crying trying to resettle but couldn’t so put in wrap
A 1hr35
S 11:45-1:40 (tried in crib but couldn’t so in wrap, broken but able to put back to sleep) = 1hr55min
E 1:45
A 1hr55 (started walking in stroller at 1hr35 but took her 20 min to fall asleep)
S 3:45-4:15 (in stroller) – 30min
E 4:30
A 1hr30
S 5:45-6:15 (wrap) – 30min
E 6:30/7:30top up
A 1hr15
BT In crib 7:40 asleep 7:45
Night – NW 12/1/1:30, NF 2:30-2:50, 5:30-5:45, NW 6:55-7:05 rocked to sleep until 7:50 – 11hrs

May 2, Day – 3hr55, Night 11hrs5 - Total 15hrs
WU 7:50
E 8:00
A 1hr40
S 9:30-11 (fell asleep instantly in wrap) - (1hr30)
E 11:00
A 1hr50
S 12:50-1:35 (fell asleep in crib immediately, tried to resettle but didn’t work) – 45min
E 1:45
A 1hr40 (tried to put in the crib at 1hr10 as she seemed to be asking but she cried and resisted so put in wrap)
S 3:15-3:55(40 min in wrap)
E 4:30
A 1hr25
S 5:20-5:50, 6:05-6:35 = 30+30 = 1hr
E 6:45/7:30
A 1hr25
BT In crib 7:45 asleep by 8.  Night - a couple of brief NWs, NF 2:30-2:50.  WU 7:30. - 11hrs5

[katie80]

Hi Char, so so sorry I haven't replied! How are things going now?

It does look like she's probably somewhere in between 1h45-2h, which is average for her age. You're getting some decent naps at 1h30-45min, but they're not all full ones so that makes me think she can handle more. It's normal for them to not all be long ones still as she continues in that developmentally short napping phase.

As for A time after a short nap, I think I'd only cut back by 15-20min. Since the A time isn't super long to begin with, 15-20min can make enough of a difference and you can be confident you're probably not putting her down UT, which is often worse for fighting a nap.

[Domestic Engineer]

Sorry, haven't seen this thread in a while - sorry things aren't really getting better!

The primary pattern that I see here is that you're putting her in the wrap a lot. I really don't think she's ever going to get good at napping in the crib if she's still taking at least half of her naps in the wrap.

She's 4 months old now, right? She should definitely be ready to drop to 3 naps instead of 4, so maybe you're pushing her to sleep more than she needs to during the day, and then keeping her up too late at night. I think bedtime 12 hours before morning waking is good for most babies by this age.

It looks like on good days she takes about an hour nap in the morning, then a longer nap closer to 2 hours, so after that she might just need a third nap of 45-60 minutes to get through to an earlier bedtime at 7. By putting her in the wrap, you might be tricking her into sleeping more than she really needs to in the afternoon, then feeling frustrated when she won't sleep the same amount in her crib.

I think A times look a little short overall. 1.45 or 2 hours is average at this age. Short A times might be the reason she's often struggling to fall asleep for the nap. I think you might have the idea that she needs shorter A times in your head and be perceiving her as sleepy before she's really ready. Is it possible that she's getting bored or overstimulated toward the end of A time instead of sleepy? Is she yawning and drooping, or just cranky?

What do you think? You know her best! What if you try keeping her awake for a minimum of 1.45 at a time, 2 if she still seems ok, and see what happens? What are your thoughts on an earlier bedtime?

[katie80]

^^^Great thoughts and well-written... I agree!

[Joy-filled]

Things are going well as far as slowly getting more crib naps but I remain very confused about her A-time needs.

I think you might have the idea that she needs shorter A times in your head and be perceiving her as sleepy before she's really ready

To be honest, I keep trying to push her A times as in my head they should be longer but there are many times I simply cannot deny that she is tired.  I put it off but she gets grumpier and grumpier and when I finally put her in her crib she falls asleep instantly.  However, I have realized recently that sometimes I do think she's bored and that's why she gets grumpy so I've been doing better at changing up the activity first before first assuming she's tired.  I think I do sometimes put her down UT and I think those are the times she fights the nap and often ends up in the wrap.  But I am really not sure what her A time needs are.  Our pattern lately has been either short/long first nap, long second nap, short third nap, short fourth nap.  Her nights are getting worse with more and more NWs and EMWs and I think it's because she's OT from very little sleep in the 2nd half of the day. 

Sorry if this is too much info but I'm going to put down the past several days as I think it will help you see my confusion.  The thing that confuses me most is that on the day she had a 1hr25min A time (SUPER low) in the morning, she gave the longest first nap she's ever done.    But I put her down that early because it was very clear she was tired.  And then there was the day where she fell asleep in the car after 1hr30 A time which really threw our day off as I wasn't expecting her to fall asleep that quickly and was hoping she'd fall asleep after we got to our destination at 1hr45.  And then she gave a short 20min nap in the afternoon after a 1hr30A time but then fell back asleep when I rocked her.  I agree that it would be beneficial to move from 4-3 naps but I don't know how we could do that at this point without a super EBT.  I do aim for a 12-12.5 hr day and typically that's how things go so I don't think we're keeping her up too late.  I have done one EBT before at 7 (Average BT is 8:00) and she pulled off a 13.5 hr night so I do think EBT is an option for her and doesn't result in EWU.  Any insights based on what you see? (once again, sorry if it's too much info  but there's just so much variation in the days due to A times all over)

May 2, Day – 3hr55m, Night 11hr5 – Total = 15hr
WU/E 7:50
A 1hr40
S 9:30-11 (fell asleep instantly in wrap) - 1hr30
E 11:00
A 1hr50
S 12:50-1:35 (fell asleep in crib immediately, resettle after WU didn't work) – 45min
E 1:45
A 1hr40 (tried to put in the crib at 1hr10 as she seemed to be asking but she cried and resisted so put in wrap)
S 3:15-3:55(40 min in wrap)
E 4:30
A 1hr25
S 5:20-5:50, 6:05-6:35 (wrap) = 30+30 = 1hr
BT In crib 7:45 asleep by 8.  A couple of brief NWs. NF 3:30-3:50, WU 7:40 – 11hr5

May 3, 2015 – Day: 3hr45, Night – 11.5 hrs, Total = 15hrs15
WU 7:40
E 8:00
A 1hr40
S 9:30 (fell asleep within minutes in the wrap) – 10:20, 10:30-10:40 woke up when we went outside = 30+10 = 40min
E 11:00
A 1hr35
S 12:15-2:15 (tried in crib but didn’t settle, so in wrap, briefly woke a few times, I woke her up at 2:15 – 2hrs
E 2:20
A 1hr35 (put in crib and fell asleep right away)
S 3:50-4:20 (30 min in crib)
E 4:50
A 2hr5 (fussing at 1hr10 so PD but cried, when I picked up she had a burp so I don’t think she was actually tired but she stayed in her crib and tried to put herself to sleep.  Totally calm trying to put self to sleep until seemed to fall asleep at 1hr40 but then seemed to wake and couldn’t resettle so put in wrap and asleep in 5 min)
S 6:20-6:55 (woke her) - 35min
E 7:10
A 1hr15
BT – in crib 8:00, asleep 8:10.  Night – NF 3:50-4:10, super brief EMWs self-soothed.  WU 8:00 – Night; 11.5 hrs

May 4 – Day: 4hrs, Night: 10.5 hrs Total – 14hr30
WU 8:00
E 8:15
A 1hr40
S 9:40-9:55(DS woke her but she went back to sleep) 9:55-10:20 (tried to fall back asleep but eventually couldn’t and escalated) = 15+25 = 40min
E 11:00
A 1hr40 (Acting super fussy from 1hrA onward so I put down in crib at 1hr10 but she cried.  I now think she wasn’t actually tired but just had gas as she burped a few times in the wrap and then was calm and after 10 min fell asleep easily.)
S 12-2:15 (in wrap) – 2hr15
E 2:20
A 1hr45 (in crib at 1hr40 asleep quite easily)
S 4-4:35 (in crib) – 35min
E 4:50
A 1hr55 (in wrap at 1hr25 as seeming to fuss but fussed in wrap, then calm eventually asleep)
S 6:30-7 (in wrap) – 30min
E 7:15/8
A 1hr25
BT In crib 8:15, some fussing, asleep 8:25. NF 4-4:20.  Night – 10.5 hrs

May 5, 2015, Day: 4hrs, Night – 10hr50, Total: 14hr50
WU 7:30
E 7:45
A 1hr35
S 9:05-10:10 (asleep in crib) – 1hr5
E 10:45
A 1hr50
S 12:00-1:30 (1hr30 in crib, woke crying pretty hard)
E 1:45
A 1hr30 (was planning for her to sleep when we got to destination but she fell asleep in the car)
S 3:00-3:15 (15 min in car but when we got to destination)
E 4:00
A 1hr
S 4:15-4:45 (30 min in wrap)
E 6:00
A 1hr50
S 6:35 -7:15 (40 min in wrap)
A 1hr30
BT In crib 8:40 asleep 8:45 with a few ENWs. Soother replug a few times between 1:30 and 2:30. NF 4:15-4:40. WU 8:05 – 10hr50ish

May 6 2015 – Day: 4hrs Night: 11.5 hrs (capped) Total = 15.5hrs
WU 8:05
E 8:15
A 1hr25 (fussing at 1hr15)
S 9:30-11:20 (replugged soother at 45 min when she woke and she immediately went back to sleep) – 1hr50
E 11:30
A 1hr40 (Fussing at 1hr25 but not able to get home and put down until 1hr40 fell asleep within minutes)
S 1:00 -1:50 (fell asleep right away in crib, tried to put self back to sleep but couldn’t ) – 50min
E 2:25
A 1hr30 Acting fussy and really wanting to go down by 1hr10, finally paid attention but she did struggle and cry pretty hard.  I should’ve listened right away but it just seemed so early.
S 3:20-3:40(in crib, woke after 20 min tried so hard to put herself back to sleep but she couldn’t so rocked her and she fell back asleep (4-4:30) = 20+50=50min
E 5:00
A 1hr45
S 6:15-6:45 (in wrap) – 30 min
E 7:00/7:45 top up
A 1hr25
BT In crib 8:00 asleep 8:10.  A few soother replugs in the night, NF 5:20-5:40, WU 8:15 (woke her) = 11.5hrs

May 7, 2015: Day – 3hr55.  Night 10hr.5 = 14.5hr
WU 8:15 (woke her from a deep sleep)
E 8:20
A 2hr
S 10:15-11 (wasn’t falling asleep in the nursery so put her in the wrap and she fell asleep in 5 min) – 45min
E 11:15
A 1hr15 (Definitely acting fussy and tired at 1hr10, put in crib and fell asleep right away)
S 12:15-1:20 (woke and cried but I put the soother back in and she fell right back asleep!) 1:20-2:20 = 1hr5+1hr = 2hr5 ☺
E 2:30
A 2hr (fell asleep very easily in the crib, wasn’t really acting tired but I put her down)
S 4:20- (fell asleep within minutes very easily) – 4:50 – 30 min
E 5:00
A 1hr45 (acting tired at 1hr20, tried in crib but she couldn’t do it so eventually put in wrap)
S 6:35-7 (woke her from deep sleep) – 25min
E 7:30
A 1hr15
BT In crib 8:10, asleep in minutes.  Several NWs.  NF 4-4:20. Very touchy, fragile on and off sleep from 6:30-7:40.  I think this is because she’s OT from very little sleep in later part of day. – 10.5hrs?

[Domestic Engineer]

Sometimes you have to be careful about drawing too many conclusions from what she does once or twice - like that a good nap after one short A means she needs shorter A times. She was probably just sleepy that morning for whatever reason.

She's getting at least an hour in total sleep between the two afternoon naps every day, so I really don't think she's OT from little afternoon sleep. That should be plenty, it just needs to be consolidated into one nap instead of two. She's not getting a long enough A time before bed with that really late nap.

She might be getting too little daytime sleep overall, though, because usually either her first or her second nap is long, but not both. She might just need the 4 hours of daytime sleep that she's getting, if she's low sleep needs, but she might need both of those naps to be long.

I know you often think she's clearly tired after a short A time, but if you look through the last few days, those are most often the naps where you try to get her to sleep and it takes 20-40 minutes, so she's probably not really sleepy. I would try for at least a couple of days to just not put her down until it's been 1:45, even if you think she's tired, unless she's literally falling asleep on the floor or something. She's still on less than a 3-hour EASY but is 4 months, which is old enough to move toward 4. That's going to require longer A times and longer naps.

Some of her short naps might be because of the short A times. But I also think the wrap is hindering you in establishing a schedule. Taking longer naps requires more independent sleep habits, which she can't learn if you keep using the wrap. I'm not sure that you'll be able to get her onto a good routine with consistent naps until you stop using the wrap. The short naps might also be keeping her from longer A times, so it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

You seem to be afraid of letting her get overtired to the point that you won't let her learn to sleep independently because you rescue her with the wrap. A few days of OT and bad napping might be necessary to learn the napping skills she needs to get onto a better schedule, and it will probably help with her night wakings as well. What's the worst that could happen if you just take the wrap, put it away for a few days, don't use it at all and only let her sleep in the crib?

[Joy-filled]

Thanks for your thoughts.  I will do as you suggest and not PD before 1hr45 A time for a few days (only shortening by 15-20 min after a short nap) and we'll see how it goes.

However, as for IS, I only use the wrap when she gets increasingly upset in the crib and ends up hysterical.  For example, today she had her 1st two naps in the crib as she fell asleep easily.  But for the 3rd nap I put her down in the crib at 1hr50.  She was showing she's tired before that but I ignored her tired signs and didn't put down until 1hr50.  She mantra cried at first and tried really hard to put herself to sleep for 10-15 min (only intervention I did was soother replugging a few times) but slowly got more and more upset until the point where she was so upset I went in but she wouldn't calm her in my arms.  Tried to put back down but she was super upset. I knew she just wouldn't be able to fall asleep in her crib.  She does not respond to sh-pat at all and far prefers to fall asleep on her own.  I am certain PUPD would not work with her at all as she finds my presence distracting.  Do you have a suggestion for how to get her to sleep in her crib when she becomes so OT she's hysterical (other than PUPD)?

She very consistently seems to do 4 hours of day sleep and 11ish hours of night sleep so I think she's ASN. If she gets less than 4 she catches up at night and if she does more than 4 she does less at night.  I've been trying to stretch her feeds but she is genuinely hungry at 3 hrs and I often have to ignore her hunger cries just to make it to the 3 hr mark.  I'm not sure what to do?  And of course the short naps are impeding my ability to stretch the 3hr EASY too.

[Domestic Engineer]

Try to pick her up for a little comfort before she gets hysterical, as soon as you can tell that she's winding up, not winding down. If she does reach hysteria, hold her until she's calm again. Ideally, you could then put her down and she would be content to fall asleep by herself. But she might end up falling asleep in your arms sometimes when she calms down. Then you can just put her down in the crib. Falling asleep by the crib and sleeping in the crib is still an improvement from sleeping in the wrap.

Do you do anything to help her fall asleep independently? Does she have white noise? That's a huge one at her age. Is it really dark where she naps? Do you have any other sleep cues for her?

15 hours is not a lot at 4 months; I think it's the low end of the average range.

Never ignore her hungry cues! Feed her if she's hungry. But I would guess that if her naps get longer, she will naturally sleep until it's been 3.5-4 hours since the last feed. I wouldn't worry about the feeds, really, until you get the naps worked out.

[Joy-filled]

But I would guess that if her naps get longer, she will naturally sleep until it's been 3.5-4 hours since the last feed. I wouldn't worry about the feeds, really, until you get the naps worked out.

I agree.  She naturally does a longer stretch when she does a long nap and I agree this will happen more regularly once we get the naps sorted out.

We have white noise, we swaddle, and her room is blacked out so lots of sleep cues.    When we get her A time right she falls asleep instantly in the crib or within minutes.  When I get it wrong she often will be fussing and crying before the wind down, fussing and crying during the wind down and as I'm standing by the crib - the longer I stand there to try to calm her the more upset she gets.  As soon as I put her down she stops crying and closes her eyes.  It's like she's saying "thank you for putting me down and listening to me so I can finally go to sleep!".  She really does prefer to go to sleep on her own and doesn't like intervention.  She then has her eyes closed as she lies in the crib and tries to fall asleep but can't settle down.  She tries and tries but she gets upset.  If I go in and pick her up or "sh" or pat her, she doesn't appreciate it and gets upset.  The only time she calms by my intervention is when she's hysterical and I pick her up but by this point she's usually been trying to get herself to sleep for at least 10 minutes and is now so OT she can't settle on her own.

I also think she would greatly benefit from being on 3 naps instead of 4.  Yesterday we managed 3 and she ended up having a 12.5 hr night with less NWs than usual so if I can somehow get two long naps so we can have a 3 nap day that will help with nights too.  She ended up with 16 hrs total sleep combining day and night sleep since she had such a great night.  Today however she had to have four naps as three of them were short and she is having a horrible time settling for bed now as she is clearly OT from too much A time today.    Usually she's out like a light at BT.

I really think the IS will be very easily solved when I can figure out her A time needs because when I get it right and she isn't OT, she falls asleep super easily.

[Domestic Engineer]

Glad to hear about the good sleep day/night! Yay!

Another part of it may be that her routine is so inconsistent. Trying for more consistency might help her fall asleep more easily. But I know it's hard to do when she doesn't consistently nap!

[katie80]

And it will get better as she gets older. 4mo is still a tricky time for naps for so many babies. Hang on to the good days and make it through the bad ones and know that it does get better (for settling and A times and everything).

I do think it's worth continuing to try to gently push the A times, as the all-short-nap day after the 3 nap day and really good night was probably a bit of an UT/OT thing. I wonder if sometimes her struggle to settle is actually UT as well, rather than OT. Sometimes it can be hard to tell. My DS2 screamed bloody murder when I tried to put him down UT (like for 45min of PD!) and it was confusing for me because my other two usually only rolled around and chatted when UT and screamed when OT!

[Joy-filled]

Just thought I'd write a quick note to let you ladies know things are going well  .  With an A time of 1hr45 to 1hr55 she's doing some long naps and is sometimes settling herself after waking up at 30 min or will resettle with a simple soother replug! She's also falling asleep in the crib very easily or with just a bit of fuss for about 90% of her naps  . 

Some days we get 2 decent naps and a CN and some days just 1 long nap and 3 short ones and the occasional poor day (like today) is 4 short naps but then we just do an EBT.  I am quite pleased and think she's well on her way to total IS and with time we'll have more and more days with 2 decent naps and a CN.  Considering 4 months is a tricky time I think we're doing quite well!

Thanks so much for your help!! 

[Domestic Engineer]

Hooray! Wonderful to hear. Good job, mama!!

[katie80]

Sounds great!!