Not sure what to tackle first and where to start with 3.5 month old

[katie80]

TBH, reading and figuring EASYs out at this age is not my strong suit. And I agree with you, a clear pattern isn't noticeable. What I think though, is if you look at the overall picture and take into consideration her age, she's got low A times still and is struggling to stay asleep for long periods of time in the crib. I think those two things suggest UT. She's not getting an overall high amount of sleep, so I don't know that you could call her high sleep needs. So, if she falls in the average sleep needs range, her A times will need to follow the average as well, otherwise you'll likely continue in a difficult UT/OT loop. I would try to push her a little bit and see if working closer to 1h30-45min gets you some more consistent naps. Does that make sense? What do you think?

[Joy-filled]

Thanks for your thoughts!  Perhaps I should post on EASY to get some different eyes on it?  What do you think? I did push a bit more in the past 2 days to 1hr35/45 and it hasn't seemed to help as far as I can see .  Her A times are also low following short naps because I have to shorten it due to short naps. I'm really struggling with knowing is what A time should I use after a 20/30/45 minute nap? What do you think?

Apr 30 Day = 4hr15, Night = 10.5hrs, Total = 14hr45
WU 7:00
E 7:15
A 1hr35
S 8:35-9:40 (pretty easily fell asleep in crib) = 1hr5
E 10:00
A 1hr55 (put down late as we were out but she went down in crib)
S 11:35-1:15 – 1hr45min
E 1:15
A 1hr45
S 3-3:20 (20 min), woke and tried to resettle but couldn’t, eventually hysterical so picked up to rock and slept 3:45-4:25 (in my arms rocking) – 20+40 = 1hr
E 4:45
A 1hr35/2hr10  Clearly tired at 5:55 so put down at 6:00. Asleep for a couple of minutes but woke, struggled, lots of soother replugging, couldn’t settle so had to put in wrap 
S  6:35-7 (in wrap, woke her from a deep sleep) – 25min
E 7:00, top up at 7:45
A 1hr30
BT – In crib at 8, asleep with little fuss by 8:15.  NF 2:30-2:50, 6-6:15, WU 7:20

May 1 Day – 4hrs, Night – 11 hrs Total=15hrs
WU 7:20
A 1hr45 (fell asleep right away in crib)
S 8:45-9:30 (in crib, tried to put herself back to sleep but couldn’t) – 45min
E 10:00
A 1hr20
S 10:50-11:10 (20 min), crying trying to resettle but couldn’t so put in wrap
A 1hr35
S 11:45-1:40 (tried in crib but couldn’t so in wrap, broken but able to put back to sleep) = 1hr55min
E 1:45
A 1hr55 (started walking in stroller at 1hr35 but took her 20 min to fall asleep)
S 3:45-4:15 (in stroller) – 30min
E 4:30
A 1hr30
S 5:45-6:15 (wrap) – 30min
E 6:30/7:30top up
A 1hr15
BT In crib 7:40 asleep 7:45
Night – NW 12/1/1:30, NF 2:30-2:50, 5:30-5:45, NW 6:55-7:05 rocked to sleep until 7:50 – 11hrs

May 2, Day – 3hr55, Night 11hrs5 - Total 15hrs
WU 7:50
E 8:00
A 1hr40
S 9:30-11 (fell asleep instantly in wrap) - (1hr30)
E 11:00
A 1hr50
S 12:50-1:35 (fell asleep in crib immediately, tried to resettle but didn’t work) – 45min
E 1:45
A 1hr40 (tried to put in the crib at 1hr10 as she seemed to be asking but she cried and resisted so put in wrap)
S 3:15-3:55(40 min in wrap)
E 4:30
A 1hr25
S 5:20-5:50, 6:05-6:35 = 30+30 = 1hr
E 6:45/7:30
A 1hr25
BT In crib 7:45 asleep by 8.  Night - a couple of brief NWs, NF 2:30-2:50.  WU 7:30. - 11hrs5

[katie80]

Hi Char, so so sorry I haven't replied! How are things going now?

It does look like she's probably somewhere in between 1h45-2h, which is average for her age. You're getting some decent naps at 1h30-45min, but they're not all full ones so that makes me think she can handle more. It's normal for them to not all be long ones still as she continues in that developmentally short napping phase.

As for A time after a short nap, I think I'd only cut back by 15-20min. Since the A time isn't super long to begin with, 15-20min can make enough of a difference and you can be confident you're probably not putting her down UT, which is often worse for fighting a nap.

[Domestic Engineer]

Sorry, haven't seen this thread in a while - sorry things aren't really getting better!

The primary pattern that I see here is that you're putting her in the wrap a lot. I really don't think she's ever going to get good at napping in the crib if she's still taking at least half of her naps in the wrap.

She's 4 months old now, right? She should definitely be ready to drop to 3 naps instead of 4, so maybe you're pushing her to sleep more than she needs to during the day, and then keeping her up too late at night. I think bedtime 12 hours before morning waking is good for most babies by this age.

It looks like on good days she takes about an hour nap in the morning, then a longer nap closer to 2 hours, so after that she might just need a third nap of 45-60 minutes to get through to an earlier bedtime at 7. By putting her in the wrap, you might be tricking her into sleeping more than she really needs to in the afternoon, then feeling frustrated when she won't sleep the same amount in her crib.

I think A times look a little short overall. 1.45 or 2 hours is average at this age. Short A times might be the reason she's often struggling to fall asleep for the nap. I think you might have the idea that she needs shorter A times in your head and be perceiving her as sleepy before she's really ready. Is it possible that she's getting bored or overstimulated toward the end of A time instead of sleepy? Is she yawning and drooping, or just cranky?

What do you think? You know her best! What if you try keeping her awake for a minimum of 1.45 at a time, 2 if she still seems ok, and see what happens? What are your thoughts on an earlier bedtime?

[katie80]

^^^Great thoughts and well-written... I agree!

[Joy-filled]

Things are going well as far as slowly getting more crib naps but I remain very confused about her A-time needs.

I think you might have the idea that she needs shorter A times in your head and be perceiving her as sleepy before she's really ready

To be honest, I keep trying to push her A times as in my head they should be longer but there are many times I simply cannot deny that she is tired.  I put it off but she gets grumpier and grumpier and when I finally put her in her crib she falls asleep instantly.  However, I have realized recently that sometimes I do think she's bored and that's why she gets grumpy so I've been doing better at changing up the activity first before first assuming she's tired.  I think I do sometimes put her down UT and I think those are the times she fights the nap and often ends up in the wrap.  But I am really not sure what her A time needs are.  Our pattern lately has been either short/long first nap, long second nap, short third nap, short fourth nap.  Her nights are getting worse with more and more NWs and EMWs and I think it's because she's OT from very little sleep in the 2nd half of the day. 

Sorry if this is too much info but I'm going to put down the past several days as I think it will help you see my confusion.  The thing that confuses me most is that on the day she had a 1hr25min A time (SUPER low) in the morning, she gave the longest first nap she's ever done.    But I put her down that early because it was very clear she was tired.  And then there was the day where she fell asleep in the car after 1hr30 A time which really threw our day off as I wasn't expecting her to fall asleep that quickly and was hoping she'd fall asleep after we got to our destination at 1hr45.  And then she gave a short 20min nap in the afternoon after a 1hr30A time but then fell back asleep when I rocked her.  I agree that it would be beneficial to move from 4-3 naps but I don't know how we could do that at this point without a super EBT.  I do aim for a 12-12.5 hr day and typically that's how things go so I don't think we're keeping her up too late.  I have done one EBT before at 7 (Average BT is 8:00) and she pulled off a 13.5 hr night so I do think EBT is an option for her and doesn't result in EWU.  Any insights based on what you see? (once again, sorry if it's too much info  but there's just so much variation in the days due to A times all over)

May 2, Day – 3hr55m, Night 11hr5 – Total = 15hr
WU/E 7:50
A 1hr40
S 9:30-11 (fell asleep instantly in wrap) - 1hr30
E 11:00
A 1hr50
S 12:50-1:35 (fell asleep in crib immediately, resettle after WU didn't work) – 45min
E 1:45
A 1hr40 (tried to put in the crib at 1hr10 as she seemed to be asking but she cried and resisted so put in wrap)
S 3:15-3:55(40 min in wrap)
E 4:30
A 1hr25
S 5:20-5:50, 6:05-6:35 (wrap) = 30+30 = 1hr
BT In crib 7:45 asleep by 8.  A couple of brief NWs. NF 3:30-3:50, WU 7:40 – 11hr5

May 3, 2015 – Day: 3hr45, Night – 11.5 hrs, Total = 15hrs15
WU 7:40
E 8:00
A 1hr40
S 9:30 (fell asleep within minutes in the wrap) – 10:20, 10:30-10:40 woke up when we went outside = 30+10 = 40min
E 11:00
A 1hr35
S 12:15-2:15 (tried in crib but didn’t settle, so in wrap, briefly woke a few times, I woke her up at 2:15 – 2hrs
E 2:20
A 1hr35 (put in crib and fell asleep right away)
S 3:50-4:20 (30 min in crib)
E 4:50
A 2hr5 (fussing at 1hr10 so PD but cried, when I picked up she had a burp so I don’t think she was actually tired but she stayed in her crib and tried to put herself to sleep.  Totally calm trying to put self to sleep until seemed to fall asleep at 1hr40 but then seemed to wake and couldn’t resettle so put in wrap and asleep in 5 min)
S 6:20-6:55 (woke her) - 35min
E 7:10
A 1hr15
BT – in crib 8:00, asleep 8:10.  Night – NF 3:50-4:10, super brief EMWs self-soothed.  WU 8:00 – Night; 11.5 hrs

May 4 – Day: 4hrs, Night: 10.5 hrs Total – 14hr30
WU 8:00
E 8:15
A 1hr40
S 9:40-9:55(DS woke her but she went back to sleep) 9:55-10:20 (tried to fall back asleep but eventually couldn’t and escalated) = 15+25 = 40min
E 11:00
A 1hr40 (Acting super fussy from 1hrA onward so I put down in crib at 1hr10 but she cried.  I now think she wasn’t actually tired but just had gas as she burped a few times in the wrap and then was calm and after 10 min fell asleep easily.)
S 12-2:15 (in wrap) – 2hr15
E 2:20
A 1hr45 (in crib at 1hr40 asleep quite easily)
S 4-4:35 (in crib) – 35min
E 4:50
A 1hr55 (in wrap at 1hr25 as seeming to fuss but fussed in wrap, then calm eventually asleep)
S 6:30-7 (in wrap) – 30min
E 7:15/8
A 1hr25
BT In crib 8:15, some fussing, asleep 8:25. NF 4-4:20.  Night – 10.5 hrs

May 5, 2015, Day: 4hrs, Night – 10hr50, Total: 14hr50
WU 7:30
E 7:45
A 1hr35
S 9:05-10:10 (asleep in crib) – 1hr5
E 10:45
A 1hr50
S 12:00-1:30 (1hr30 in crib, woke crying pretty hard)
E 1:45
A 1hr30 (was planning for her to sleep when we got to destination but she fell asleep in the car)
S 3:00-3:15 (15 min in car but when we got to destination)
E 4:00
A 1hr
S 4:15-4:45 (30 min in wrap)
E 6:00
A 1hr50
S 6:35 -7:15 (40 min in wrap)
A 1hr30
BT In crib 8:40 asleep 8:45 with a few ENWs. Soother replug a few times between 1:30 and 2:30. NF 4:15-4:40. WU 8:05 – 10hr50ish

May 6 2015 – Day: 4hrs Night: 11.5 hrs (capped) Total = 15.5hrs
WU 8:05
E 8:15
A 1hr25 (fussing at 1hr15)
S 9:30-11:20 (replugged soother at 45 min when she woke and she immediately went back to sleep) – 1hr50
E 11:30
A 1hr40 (Fussing at 1hr25 but not able to get home and put down until 1hr40 fell asleep within minutes)
S 1:00 -1:50 (fell asleep right away in crib, tried to put self back to sleep but couldn’t ) – 50min
E 2:25
A 1hr30 Acting fussy and really wanting to go down by 1hr10, finally paid attention but she did struggle and cry pretty hard.  I should’ve listened right away but it just seemed so early.
S 3:20-3:40(in crib, woke after 20 min tried so hard to put herself back to sleep but she couldn’t so rocked her and she fell back asleep (4-4:30) = 20+50=50min
E 5:00
A 1hr45
S 6:15-6:45 (in wrap) – 30 min
E 7:00/7:45 top up
A 1hr25
BT In crib 8:00 asleep 8:10.  A few soother replugs in the night, NF 5:20-5:40, WU 8:15 (woke her) = 11.5hrs

May 7, 2015: Day – 3hr55.  Night 10hr.5 = 14.5hr
WU 8:15 (woke her from a deep sleep)
E 8:20
A 2hr
S 10:15-11 (wasn’t falling asleep in the nursery so put her in the wrap and she fell asleep in 5 min) – 45min
E 11:15
A 1hr15 (Definitely acting fussy and tired at 1hr10, put in crib and fell asleep right away)
S 12:15-1:20 (woke and cried but I put the soother back in and she fell right back asleep!) 1:20-2:20 = 1hr5+1hr = 2hr5 ☺
E 2:30
A 2hr (fell asleep very easily in the crib, wasn’t really acting tired but I put her down)
S 4:20- (fell asleep within minutes very easily) – 4:50 – 30 min
E 5:00
A 1hr45 (acting tired at 1hr20, tried in crib but she couldn’t do it so eventually put in wrap)
S 6:35-7 (woke her from deep sleep) – 25min
E 7:30
A 1hr15
BT In crib 8:10, asleep in minutes.  Several NWs.  NF 4-4:20. Very touchy, fragile on and off sleep from 6:30-7:40.  I think this is because she’s OT from very little sleep in later part of day. – 10.5hrs?

[Domestic Engineer]

Sometimes you have to be careful about drawing too many conclusions from what she does once or twice - like that a good nap after one short A means she needs shorter A times. She was probably just sleepy that morning for whatever reason.

She's getting at least an hour in total sleep between the two afternoon naps every day, so I really don't think she's OT from little afternoon sleep. That should be plenty, it just needs to be consolidated into one nap instead of two. She's not getting a long enough A time before bed with that really late nap.

She might be getting too little daytime sleep overall, though, because usually either her first or her second nap is long, but not both. She might just need the 4 hours of daytime sleep that she's getting, if she's low sleep needs, but she might need both of those naps to be long.

I know you often think she's clearly tired after a short A time, but if you look through the last few days, those are most often the naps where you try to get her to sleep and it takes 20-40 minutes, so she's probably not really sleepy. I would try for at least a couple of days to just not put her down until it's been 1:45, even if you think she's tired, unless she's literally falling asleep on the floor or something. She's still on less than a 3-hour EASY but is 4 months, which is old enough to move toward 4. That's going to require longer A times and longer naps.

Some of her short naps might be because of the short A times. But I also think the wrap is hindering you in establishing a schedule. Taking longer naps requires more independent sleep habits, which she can't learn if you keep using the wrap. I'm not sure that you'll be able to get her onto a good routine with consistent naps until you stop using the wrap. The short naps might also be keeping her from longer A times, so it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

You seem to be afraid of letting her get overtired to the point that you won't let her learn to sleep independently because you rescue her with the wrap. A few days of OT and bad napping might be necessary to learn the napping skills she needs to get onto a better schedule, and it will probably help with her night wakings as well. What's the worst that could happen if you just take the wrap, put it away for a few days, don't use it at all and only let her sleep in the crib?

[Joy-filled]

Thanks for your thoughts.  I will do as you suggest and not PD before 1hr45 A time for a few days (only shortening by 15-20 min after a short nap) and we'll see how it goes.

However, as for IS, I only use the wrap when she gets increasingly upset in the crib and ends up hysterical.  For example, today she had her 1st two naps in the crib as she fell asleep easily.  But for the 3rd nap I put her down in the crib at 1hr50.  She was showing she's tired before that but I ignored her tired signs and didn't put down until 1hr50.  She mantra cried at first and tried really hard to put herself to sleep for 10-15 min (only intervention I did was soother replugging a few times) but slowly got more and more upset until the point where she was so upset I went in but she wouldn't calm her in my arms.  Tried to put back down but she was super upset. I knew she just wouldn't be able to fall asleep in her crib.  She does not respond to sh-pat at all and far prefers to fall asleep on her own.  I am certain PUPD would not work with her at all as she finds my presence distracting.  Do you have a suggestion for how to get her to sleep in her crib when she becomes so OT she's hysterical (other than PUPD)?

She very consistently seems to do 4 hours of day sleep and 11ish hours of night sleep so I think she's ASN. If she gets less than 4 she catches up at night and if she does more than 4 she does less at night.  I've been trying to stretch her feeds but she is genuinely hungry at 3 hrs and I often have to ignore her hunger cries just to make it to the 3 hr mark.  I'm not sure what to do?  And of course the short naps are impeding my ability to stretch the 3hr EASY too.

[Domestic Engineer]

Try to pick her up for a little comfort before she gets hysterical, as soon as you can tell that she's winding up, not winding down. If she does reach hysteria, hold her until she's calm again. Ideally, you could then put her down and she would be content to fall asleep by herself. But she might end up falling asleep in your arms sometimes when she calms down. Then you can just put her down in the crib. Falling asleep by the crib and sleeping in the crib is still an improvement from sleeping in the wrap.

Do you do anything to help her fall asleep independently? Does she have white noise? That's a huge one at her age. Is it really dark where she naps? Do you have any other sleep cues for her?

15 hours is not a lot at 4 months; I think it's the low end of the average range.

Never ignore her hungry cues! Feed her if she's hungry. But I would guess that if her naps get longer, she will naturally sleep until it's been 3.5-4 hours since the last feed. I wouldn't worry about the feeds, really, until you get the naps worked out.

[Joy-filled]

But I would guess that if her naps get longer, she will naturally sleep until it's been 3.5-4 hours since the last feed. I wouldn't worry about the feeds, really, until you get the naps worked out.

I agree.  She naturally does a longer stretch when she does a long nap and I agree this will happen more regularly once we get the naps sorted out.

We have white noise, we swaddle, and her room is blacked out so lots of sleep cues.    When we get her A time right she falls asleep instantly in the crib or within minutes.  When I get it wrong she often will be fussing and crying before the wind down, fussing and crying during the wind down and as I'm standing by the crib - the longer I stand there to try to calm her the more upset she gets.  As soon as I put her down she stops crying and closes her eyes.  It's like she's saying "thank you for putting me down and listening to me so I can finally go to sleep!".  She really does prefer to go to sleep on her own and doesn't like intervention.  She then has her eyes closed as she lies in the crib and tries to fall asleep but can't settle down.  She tries and tries but she gets upset.  If I go in and pick her up or "sh" or pat her, she doesn't appreciate it and gets upset.  The only time she calms by my intervention is when she's hysterical and I pick her up but by this point she's usually been trying to get herself to sleep for at least 10 minutes and is now so OT she can't settle on her own.

I also think she would greatly benefit from being on 3 naps instead of 4.  Yesterday we managed 3 and she ended up having a 12.5 hr night with less NWs than usual so if I can somehow get two long naps so we can have a 3 nap day that will help with nights too.  She ended up with 16 hrs total sleep combining day and night sleep since she had such a great night.  Today however she had to have four naps as three of them were short and she is having a horrible time settling for bed now as she is clearly OT from too much A time today.    Usually she's out like a light at BT.

I really think the IS will be very easily solved when I can figure out her A time needs because when I get it right and she isn't OT, she falls asleep super easily.

[Domestic Engineer]

Glad to hear about the good sleep day/night! Yay!

Another part of it may be that her routine is so inconsistent. Trying for more consistency might help her fall asleep more easily. But I know it's hard to do when she doesn't consistently nap!

[katie80]

And it will get better as she gets older. 4mo is still a tricky time for naps for so many babies. Hang on to the good days and make it through the bad ones and know that it does get better (for settling and A times and everything).

I do think it's worth continuing to try to gently push the A times, as the all-short-nap day after the 3 nap day and really good night was probably a bit of an UT/OT thing. I wonder if sometimes her struggle to settle is actually UT as well, rather than OT. Sometimes it can be hard to tell. My DS2 screamed bloody murder when I tried to put him down UT (like for 45min of PD!) and it was confusing for me because my other two usually only rolled around and chatted when UT and screamed when OT!

[Joy-filled]

Just thought I'd write a quick note to let you ladies know things are going well  .  With an A time of 1hr45 to 1hr55 she's doing some long naps and is sometimes settling herself after waking up at 30 min or will resettle with a simple soother replug! She's also falling asleep in the crib very easily or with just a bit of fuss for about 90% of her naps  . 

Some days we get 2 decent naps and a CN and some days just 1 long nap and 3 short ones and the occasional poor day (like today) is 4 short naps but then we just do an EBT.  I am quite pleased and think she's well on her way to total IS and with time we'll have more and more days with 2 decent naps and a CN.  Considering 4 months is a tricky time I think we're doing quite well!

Thanks so much for your help!! 

[Domestic Engineer]

Hooray! Wonderful to hear. Good job, mama!!

[katie80]

Sounds great!!