It's all gone to hell in a handcart

[newkidontheblock]

I always had a good laugh when I read the quote from Mamaholmes in this post from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps but I am now living this portion

5. Know the signs of OT - if naps start getting shorter, morning wake up times get earlier or your LO starts waking frequently at night, chances are they are getting OT. They might also start taking aaaages to fall asleep (although this could also be a sign that they are UT, so only really significant if one of the other things is happening too) or getting very distressed at bedtime/naptime or during NW (SA type behaviour).

and it isn't funny. I really need some help.

Background - We have been the 2-1 since 7 months when we moved to a long am/short pm routine. As her A is moving towards 4.5hrs, we have successfully had a handful of one nap days and honestly, things were going great.
Our routine on
2 nap days -- 4.15 A before both am nap & CN with bed 1.40mins later (she cannot do longer, I have tried)
1 nap days - If her nap ends at 1.30pm or later, I have gone straight to bed after 4 hrs. We have had 7 days on & off of BT between 5.30 & 6 & she has done 13.5-14 hour nights.

Then we hit  Leap 7 of the wonder weeks and everything has broken! She will still nap well but needs 5 minutes of help and resettles in between. She is fine during her A time right up to being put into her crib at bedtime at which point she will cling to me and start crying. She also started waking earlier & earlier -- between 4.30 & 5.30 every day for the past two weeks now, regardless of BT. I first thought OT as it was coming to a 10ish hour night but now nights are 8 hours, sometimes a bit more. This is a former 12 hr+ night sleeper!

Thinking it was SA, I have been staying in her room and comforting her. She will sleep off but wake as soon as I leave the room even if I have stayed for 20 + minutes. And then it takes over an hour to get her back down. I'm sure some SA is at play but also OT and with her finally falling asleep 1 hour after the actual time, she is madly over tired leading to more NWs and EWs. DH & I have come up with multiple game plans but no success yet. I really need a lot of help, please!

PLAN 1- Gradual Withdrawl - if she sleeps on her own, she will make it through the night fine -- even when she finally sleeps on her own, she is up the moment I leave the room.

PLAN 2- We found that whether she sleeps early - 5.30/6 on 1 nap days or 7.30/8 on 2 nap days, she is still up at 5.30ish because of the accumulated OT (I'm guessing), so we thought let's go for 1 nap days with an early BT because at least then total night sleep is more and then we can get back on track the next day with 2 naps.

PLAN 3- We need to get out of this OT cycle, so do whatever it takes to get her to sleep without wasting a moment and after we have got back on track, sleep train again to over come the props. Yesterday, I held her, I patted her, I nursed her, I bounced, rocked & sang till I was blue in the face...and it still took an hour to get her down & she was up 45 minutes later (OT again) needing a resettle and up for the day at 5.30.

Katie suggested I try a short am/long pm routine for a while and it made a lot of sense because with the other routine on 1 or 2 nap days, she is still going to sleep completely tired out and any delay leads to massive OT, so that is today's plan.

I need all the help you can give me, ladies. This is a great sleeper - even when she stopped settling independently recently, we still were getting 12hr+ nights. This is so unlike her. She is not teething. She will also not let DH settle her anymore.

Help?

[jessmum46]

Hugs Fleur, I'm here to help and support . Can you post last 3-4 days EASY?

One thing slightly confuses me - on one nap days, why BT after 4h when a CN would be after 4h15??

Long nights are common in the switch to one nap, BUT they don't last forever. I'm guessing what may have happened is initially with 4h15/4h A times she was tired enough to pull the long nights on a one-nap day.  Then she got used to the A times and couldn't manage as long a night (realistically expecting any more than 12h for any more than a few days during transition/illness is pretty unlikely, imho) so did a perfectly reasonable but shorter night.  Then because you had an early start you've ended up with some long days and OT has set in.

I think I've said before but I don't think one nap is sustainable with less than 4.5h A either side of nap, probably closer to 5h for most babies.  So I might suggest if short am doesn't suit, go back to a normal A first thing, then long nap but limit to 2h, then another full A and a longer CN aiming for a 13h day. Hopefully that will give more A in the day but not OT at BT, and with luck a better WU.

Out of interest does Eris have a 'normal' BT or does it vary quite a bit?

More hugs, this will pass but very willing to hold hands through it xx

[newkidontheblock]

Thank you, Katherine. 2 weeks of this and I'm flummoxed & shattered. I can now fully understand how frustrating it must have been with B's EWs. So happy that that phase is over for you guys.

on one nap days, why BT after 4h when a CN would be after 4h15??

She has always needed a shorter A to bed than she does before naps. 4 is actually pushing it and only started being alright once her A moved to 4.15.

Out of interest does Eris have a 'normal' BT or does it vary quite a bit?

Till 7 months, BT was consistently 7pm. However, once her am nap started lengthening & only a pm CN was needed, I've had to vary BT depending on when the CN ended. It has always been between 6.15 & 7.

Long nights are common in the switch to one nap, BUT they don't last forever.

Regd the long nights, I completely agree. What I felt was, if she has an EBT and wakes earlier than usual but has had a good night's rest (11.5-12), I would just take it from there and have 2 naps on that day instead. But that never happened. Instead of WU at 7, she would wake anywhere between 7.30 & 8. I don't understand exactly what has gone wrong. I know she is OT but how she got so OT so quickly is a bit beyond me. I have gone through my logs & she has consistently been getting 14 - 15 hours sleep overall and always long nights. Now her nights are around 8 -9 hours:S Unless I get her into bed at 5, then I get 12 hours.

I don't think one nap is sustainable with less than 4.5h A either side of nap, probably closer to 5h for most babies.

Definitely, we weren't trying to shift to a total 1 nap routine but just being flexible between the 2. Actually since she won't do UT naps and is prone to NWs in the first part of the night if she gets less than her total day sleep requirements per length of day, we opted for one nap day with EBT instead of an extra long day and it was working out great.

Since 12th April, she has needed help at BT, consistently taking over an hour to fall asleep, and on the 17th, the EWs started - so I guess the OT was just accumulating. As we are unable to get her to sleep on time, the OT is just increasing. I have been careful to keep the day short. I have started capping the am nap so that pm happens earlier, to keep the day at 12 hours as she only needs 2 hours day sleep.

I don't think the BT resistance is OT only. There is SA at play too and.. I can't put my finger on what else. The leap we just finished was the 'world of sequences' so I'm wondering if that has something to do with it too.

Anyway, our routine..
Tues
WU-4.50 (could not RS. Got her out of bed at 6)
Nap 1 - 10.15-12.25
Nap 2- 4.55 - 5.30
PD for bed - 7.30 (I was trying 2 hours A as you suggested) Kept waking every 10 minutes. Sleep - 8.30
WU screaming & needed RS at 10,1,5 & 6.20

Wed
WU- 6.20
Nap 1 - 11-12.50
PD for bed - 5    Sleep -6

Thursday 23/4
WU - 5.50
Nap 1 - 10.20-11.45
Nap 2 - 4.10-4.40
PD for Bed- 6.20 Sleep - 7.30
Needed RS -8.30  Sleep - 9

A times might seem long before am nap on Tuesday & Wednesday but that is because we kept her in bed and she was dozing on & off.

Also wanted to add that the days before this started happening were 2 nap days, so quite inexplicable what has suddenly snapped.

I hope you can shed some light on the situation. I honestly feel that the only way out of this is for her to sleep on time at BT, whether with help or independently. Otherwise we will never catch up.

[jessmum46]

Hmmm, with the longer A before the CN though...surely she's OT going for her CN then??  I mean, it doesn't make sense that she could handle 4h15 perfectly well, have a CN, then another A time then bed but not handle 4h15 before BT??  I wonder if that's why she has always done such a tiny A after her CN?  I guess you'd never know it was an OT nap as I'm guessing you always wake her up from it.

That's a pretty consistent BT in my book . I tend to vary the CN length to hit the same BT of 7pm, so anywhere 30-45 mins, but no reason BT can't vary a touch with a consistent CN length.  A set BT has always worked well for us in terms of settling.  But I think B is a pretty easy-going sleeper apart from his tendency to early mornings....(thank you for your kind words about that at least you know I understand how much EWs suck!).

Remind me she doesn't have teeth yet does she?  Have you tried meds as a one-off to see if that helps with settling?

Tues I'm thinking the 2h A was too long, not because it's *always* too long but because she'd had such a long day, 12h A time by the time you put her down for bed.  Wondering if she may have accepted a CN a bit earlier??  Given how long her morning A was.....but that's by the by now . I guess Wednesday's nap may have been OT too.  I seem to remember getting a lot of 1h50 naps when DD was OT on one nap.

Hmmm interesting that the two days before were two nap days.....how did they go?  Any chance this could have been UT become OT??

[newkidontheblock]

I guess you'd never know it was an OT nap as I'm guessing you always wake her up from it.

I never wake her from it. She wakes up 30/35 minutes on the dot. No luck extending either. Even the A before the CN..I try to get her down much earlier.. That's just when she sleeps off. In fact, it is taking longer and longer, even with a capped am.

Reg the short A before bed, even previously when we were on 2 naps + CN, she goes right to bed after CN. The entire bedtime routine with bath and all takes 45 minutes. When we got on this routine, we would do a 30 minute CN and move straight to bedtime routine and she would sleep even 1.15 later. I don't know why age needs a short A before bed but this has always been the case.

She doesn't have one tooth to her name:( I'll try meds tonight. She does seem warm actually. Today we did short am, long pm. I think that's the only way we can buy ourselves some time at BT. I'll check out those days and post tonight. Thank you, Katherine

[jessmum46]

No problem hun part of me feels you may just have hit the yucky hit of 2-1 where nothing works though . With DD at this point we just set nap and bedtime and stuck it out, messy but we got through xxx

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), Fleur. Here to hold your hand, honey.

[athenasmom]

HUGS Fleur 

Just to clarify ... so if you put her to bed at 5 she sleeps off OK and STTN 12 hours? If that is true than I think what happened is her BT has become 5 pm and now everything after that will cause her OT.  I would go back to 2 naps for a while and slowly push her BT back to 7. Is that manageable on 2 naps? If not than maybe you should consistently switch to 1 nap and slowly push her nap and BT to the desired time. You always say she is a creature of habit so I think this switching back an forth between 2 and 1 nap days and variable BT does not work too well for her. Try to keep it consistent and change things slowly. I hope this helps   

[newkidontheblock]

Thank you for hugs, ladies. Much needed:) This is so frustrating. I sort out one thing and everything goes smoothly until the blasted wonder week rolls around.

part of me feels you may just have hit the yucky hit of 2-1 where nothing works though

Yes, yes, a million times, yes. I have been thinking exactly the same thing. I thought I would get through this one without a hitch. Lol. Also, I was mistaken, the days before she started needing help at BT were 2 naps days. 3 days before this happening were 1 nap days, which I've chalked up to UT. And yes, due to trouble at BT, she consistently went down later so that's where the OT showed up:(
14/4 - WU - 7.15      Nap 1- 11.30-2          PD for bed - 6      Sleep - 6.30
15/4 - WU -7            Nap 1- 11.15-1.20     PD for bed -5.20   Sleep - 5.45
16/4- WU- 7             Nap 1- 11.15-1.30     PD for bed - 5.30  Sleep - 6.20
Now that I see it here, I can see where the OT came from. The next morning she woke at 5.50am. Nap 1 - 10-12    CN- 4.25-4.50  PD for bed 6.30   Sleep - 8.30
All these 4 days are in the WW stormy week right under the cloud. I medicated today, Katherine. No difference. At least we can rule that out.

Just to clarify ... so if you put her to bed at 5 she sleeps off OK and STTN 12 hours?

Nope, irrespective of when I PD, there is lots of crying and it takes almost an hour to settle her. What I meant was, if she is going to WU at 5 anyway, the earlier I get her into bed, the longer the night:p Seems like it's become a habitual waking, really.

I feel a lot of this is developmental - whereas 2 weeks ago she would keep pushing up on her knees but lie back down, now she keeps standing - again & again & again. She also keeps turning from one side to the other and crawling all over the crib:S Tracy talks about them involuntarily practicing their skills and I think that is also happening. She is so keen on standing. 

I will try to be consistent with BT, Suzanna. I do think that it will help. No option but to cap naps and aim for a fixed BT. She's really hitting me with everything she's got

[jessmum46]

Hugs Fleur, just keep repeating, it will pass, it will pass.....

[katie80]

Ugh... pulling up to standing was a rough milestone for both my boys.

I think I've said before but I don't think one nap is sustainable with less than 4.5h A either side of nap, probably closer to 5h for most babies.  So I might suggest if short am doesn't suit, go back to a normal A first thing, then long nap but limit to 2h, then another full A and a longer CN aiming for a 13h day. Hopefully that will give more A in the day but not OT at BT, and with luck a better WU.

I do think this is very true too and a bit of what led into the issue.  Unless she can sustain an 11:30ish nap for 2.5-3hr, with 4.5hr A after, I'd try for 2 naps more often than one.

More (((hugs)))

[athenasmom]

Yes, it does look like a developmental thing. HUGS  IT is so hard but it will pass and we are here for you 

[newkidontheblock]

I'm shattered. I felt like we had taken one step forward yesterday. Our day was
WU - 5.50      Nap 1- 9.40-10.20 (capped)    Nap 2 - 2.30-4.20  PD for bed - 6.45 Sleep - 7.15
Cried out a few times but resettled herself.

Then today hit us
WU - 5.05 - settled her   
WU and would not settle - 6.15
Nap 1- 10-10.30 (capped)   
Nap 2- madness! Dh decided to PD at 2, which was too early. He then tried again at 2.15 & 2.30. I finally had to nurse her down and she slept 3.10-3.40.
This is why I avoided this routine - pm nap is so uncertain no matter how exhausted she may be. She was literally falling down with tiredness the entire A time. So 2 x 30 minute naps all day. 

What would you'll have done in this situation? I decided to go straight to bed and I PD by 5. Normally, she would sleep without a problem as she would be so tired but today, she screamed the roof down and I have finally got her down by 6. It didn't help matters that I have been throwing up all day and DH isn't home either. What do I do? This certainly won't help matters

[jessmum46]

Hugs hun, tomorrow is a new day. Take it from WU time. Do a normal A minus 15 mins and let her sleep. Then see where you're at. Fwiw I think PD for second nap could actually have been too late but what's done is done. I didn't like short am for the same reason though it would have been great for us in many respects. Hope you feel better soon xxx

[Martini~]

If that helps Fleur, out routine around 9-12mo was:
WU 7am or before but never started the day before 7am
Nap 1 after 4:15-4:45A capped at 1.5h
Nap 2 at 4pm to 4:30, never later than 4:30, never longer than 30min
BT at 7pm
Than I had to APOP a catnap but it also worked. But I also pushed A in the morning till 4:45.

You can also try short long, but I think at that stage morning cannot be longer than 15-20min Hon.