how to arrange the naps if DS is LSN to avoid NW?

[gejun]

my son is 8 months old, before he is 5.5 months ago, he is not a indepent sleeper, all his naps in day is cat nap, usually three cat naps, but he is great at night (around 12 hours)with only one bottle of formula, not dream feed, just up to when he wake.
when he was 5.5 month, we have to hold him in arms for the first nap , if put him down, he will wake quick, so I did a sleep training with CIO, and he became a independent sleeper one week later, at that time we haven't fixed routine, just put him down according his active time and signs.  his nap became longer quickly, at least one is longer than 1h, sometimes more, three nap always, total  2.5 hours or more,but he became EW quickly, at 4:40~5:30, sometims he could fall in sleep again, sometimes not, now he became NW too.

day1:wu: 6:10 (5:30 wake and sleep again )
          s:9:04~9:40
          s:12:44~13:15(it seems to be disturb by noisy)
          BT:18:00, and fall sleep 18:10(usuallly 19:00,because he fight the third nap today, so tired, he cried at 20:00, obviously OT
day 2 : wu:6:00 , no NW all night
          s:8:58~9.18(I wake him because I  try to another routine)
           s:11.25~13:10
           BT:18:45
day3:wu 6:15(with NW on 2:000:3:00:4:00)
         s:9:27~9:51,(i put him down at 8:50,but he played)
         s:12:10~14:10(wake him up)
         BT:18:55
DAY4：WU 6：00(NO NW)
           Sorry I lost record for day4 and day 5
day 6 wu 6:45(NW ON 11:00, 3；00， 5;00)
          s:9:20~9:39
          s:12.17~13:45
          s:16:49~17:05
day 7  wu:6:00(no NW)

if i didn't wake hime on some days, his first nap and second nap always 2hrs totally, for example, if first nap 1hr15, second will be 45min, if first cap to 30min, second will be 1hr 25, and he will fight the third nap before 17:00, then he will be tired around 18:00.
I just found in a 12 hours day, like day6 , if nap total 2hrs, no NW at night, night will be 11 hrs, but if I think If i repeat it, the wake up time will be ealier and ealier because the night is 11 hrs , not 12 hrs, if leave 1 hr for day, he will be OT at day, it seems like his total sleep is 13hrs or little more,  same situation with 4~5 month, all naps is 30min, 12 hrs night or more.
I am confused what routine will be right if he is really a LSN.

[creations]

Hi there and welcome to BW forums

Just stopped by the let you know your question has not been missed and there will be some support for you soon.
Hang in there.

[katie80]

So, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly... you're waking him after 20min in the morning? He seems to need a total of 13hr sleep in 24?

I think at his age, I wouldn't be offering 3 naps... rather I would try extending the morning A time in order to even out the day. Are you wanting to have a short am nap? If so, I think cutting it to 20min is likely a bit too short, even for a LSN kid.

What if you tried something like this...
WU 6am
Nap 1 9:30-10am
Nap 2 1-3pm
BT 7pm

That gives a total of 13.5hr, so it may be a little off, but still seems to fit with what he's doing in some of your EASYs. What do you think?

[Martini~]

Hi Ladies - some support here as I was pming with gejun before (and I also was doing this routine with 20min first nap).

The idea, Katie, is that for LSN kids you can either push the morning nap as much as you can or you have to cap it and make really short but than allow sleeping at 12/12:30 for as much as they need, so:
- max 20min in the morning
- up to 2.5 even fronm 12 til 2-2:30pm
- max 20min in the afternoon
Afternoon nap being first to drop and it probably will happen soon as LO is already 8mo and in that routine it happens around 9mo for LSNs.
Idea behind the routine is easy, you place the longest nap ideally in the middle of the day so it's not stealing from night sleep. But you have to be carefully with longer sleep in the morning and afternoon as those can steal from night sleep. What is great in that routine is that naps ar always at the same time, you don't move them back of forward - you just cap them and drop, but ie lunchtime nap is at 12 from 6mo on till 2-3yo:).

I am not sure this routine works for everybody and but if you would like to gor for it Gejun, I would stick to that routine for 1-2 weeks to assess results. Bear in mind that that routine WU can be anywhere between 6 and 7 but LO should be able to stay in a cot and self-play so it is very low key. Naps should be set at either 9 and 12 or 9:30 and 12:30.

HTH.

Oh! One more important thing Gejun. We do not support CIO here Honey as Tracy believed that this really breaks the trust between child and the caregiver. So please keep in mind that any sleep training we will recommend to you will be gentle and not CIO/CC. If you would like to read more about why CIO and CC is not recommended here i will try to post some links later!

[katie80]

Oh, thanks Marta... don't listen to me then, I stand corrected!

[Martini~]

Sweetie, who has 3 kiddos at home and who has one:D?

I think it's Gejun choice what to do it terms of routine. I mean - if you want, give a try this routine with 20min morning nap (where I gave you some advice) or maybe go for what's Katie is proposing as this is the most popular routine here (and succesful for many!).

[katie80]

Sweetie, who has 3 kiddos at home and who has one:D?

Yes, but still struggling with my LSN kiddo!

Here to support you in my best capacity, Gejun!

[gejun]

Thanks for all of your reply. I try to keep the same time for morning nap, but sometimes he wake late because of NW and sometimes ealier,and take over 10 mins to settle. It's so difficult to fall sleep at same time, does he need more days to adapt the new routine?

I  have a question about how to do new routine at first days, especially the time of put down,  for example, if the first nap should be 9:30~10:00, but he take 10 mins to settle, should I wake him at 10:00? till he can settle quickly at 9:30? or wake him at 10:00?
if the last nap before BT is not long as expect, should I allow him a short nap or make the BT ealier?

[Martini~]

You should put him down at 9:20, hoping that he will settle at 9:30. If he settles at 9:25, wake at 9:55. So nap should be around 9:30 and not longer than 30min.

Remember that sleeping in is not the best option when trying to get back on track. It's worth waking him as sleeping in is once again stealing from his sleep needs in the time when he doesn't need it. So if he had some terrible NWs I would rather wake and let him sleep maybe slightly earlier for his noon nap or give him slightly longer on his morning nap.

[gejun]

sorry my English is not good enough, so I use the routine by Katie 80 to state my question about how to do a routine correctly.
WU 6am
Nap 1 9:30-10am
Nap 2 1-3pm
BT 7pm

when do a routine above, if LO wake at 6:00, that's great, if not, wake him up, if he wake at 5:30, just leave him alone till 6:00?
then put him down at 9:30, and wake him at 10:00, regardless how long he slept. then put him down at 1:00, and wake him at 3:00, regardless how long he slept, if the nap is shorter than two hrs, maybe earlier BT , maybre 6:30~45？ to avoid overtired?
I think even if  a routine is correct for LO,  it's impossible change in one or two days before he do exactly with the routine, how do deal with the mess during the first days?

[Martini~]

So:

- WU around 6, wake if not up till 6:30, leave in cot till min 6am
- nap 1, put down 9:20, asleep 9:30 wake after 30min; if LO sleeps 9:25 also allow 30min and wake 9:55
- nap 2, put down 12:50, asleep 1pm, wake after 2h but not later than 3pm
- BT around 7pm; try 7pm if nap was at least 1.5h;
- if nap 2 shorter than 1.5 I would go either earlier BT or third nap; I would go for third nap as we never were successful with EBT but you may also go for 6pm BT after short nap 2

[gejun]

when do you think is the WU for the 20mins for the 9:00 nap? 6:00maybe? if later than that is the reason to take more time to settle

[gejun]

you mentioned "sleeping in is once again stealing from his sleep ", I have thought it's just the extension of the night sleep, but for NW, maybe wake around 4:00 and sleep quickly again, maybe later 5:30 and take more time to sleep, should 5:30 be WU?

[Martini~]

Sleeping in means Honey that if he normally sleeps till 6am but on one night he had 2h night waking around 3 till 5am and then he slept till 7am. So from 6 till 7am is sleeping in after not sleeping at night. This may reinforce problems with night sleep.

I didn't get your first question... The first nap is set it means it is always around 9 or always around 9:30 (depends to which you stick to). No matter what was the wake up. There always be some differences in terms of who long they settle but they shouldn't be big.

[gejun]

Thank you so much, I think the sleep before 7 is the key point, I always allow him to sleep in, I will prevent the sleep in,hope sleep improved.
my first question is the expect WU for 9:00 and 9:30, I think why he need over 10mins to settle, maybe OT or UT, the moring activity time should  be around 2.5~3hrs ,I just feel the moring activity time seems shorter than others,  now maybe the sleep in result it too.