how to arrange the naps if DS is LSN to avoid NW?

[Martini~]

The morning A is always shorter hon in this routine as it is followed by a short nap and he won't be able to regenerate after a full A.

[gejun]

I cried just now, because LO bad sleep, I am so worry about him , he NW became longer , over 1.5hr, these two days he awake around 3:00~4:00 , i feel he wanto sleep again, but cann't.  finally he got up 5:20~5:30, but maybe little sleep beween 4:00~5:00. so he is very tired around 8:00, and I don't know how to do, I want to pull him to first nap later ,but can't , if let him sleep , maybe a longer nap, maybe he will regard the day as night?
two days I want to pull moring A longer, but maybe the NW, he was overtired and just took two short nap whole day, then NW became longer. I think I changed a lot with him , so ....
I am very sorry to Lo, his mom is so failed

[katie80]

Oh, so many (((hugs))). You have not failed him, please done think that. These babies are not easy to figure out and you're doing your best. Hang in there!

Is he getting any teeth right now? Often times, long night wakings like that are considered discomfort. It's ok to do a couple longer catchup naps. But, if you're wanting to 'set' him on a routine, then you'll want to get back to that and hold to it for a good couple weeks in order for it to work.

How are things going now?

[gejun]

Thanks for your concern. even if situation will not improved , I am so grateful to you and Martit, I feel not lonely about the sleep problem.
last night he wake at 12:00 and 3:00 but quickly fall sleep again, maybe not real wake. at 4:00, he is real awake, and rolled, it seem like he tried to sleep but something prevent him, no cry no happily play. at 5:20, he fall in sleep and wake finally at 6:50
I find he always feel tired after a 45min or more moring nap, if the moring nap is around 30min, he will feel tired 2~2.5.

when set a new routine, will be mess in first couple of weeks? or OT ？ because if WU at 6:00, but with NW, before 9:30, he will be OT, nap1 is eay to get because only 30mins,  but if  the nap2 he wake ealier, how to deal with it?
according to your experience, what will happened at the first couple of weeks?

before he is 6 month ago, we haven't any real routine, only bed time is around 19:19:30.
so I think I am not clear how to set a routine, how to do at fist couple of weeks, which result in the mess now.

[creations]

Hey there. I know you are already getting advice on the sleeping routine but I just wanted to stop by with a big (((hug))). You sound like you need one.  Babies are so tiring and such hard work when the sleep is off track.
Hang in there, you will get through this.
Another ((hug))

[gejun]

Today is not good too, after a NW From 4:20~5:00, he finally wake at 5:25, he is tired at 8:00, I cann't pull him to 9:00 for the nap, he will be too tired. shoud I pull him to 9:00？I don't know how to begin any routine now, wake so early, it's so hard. he is unhappy and yawns with any longer or short naps, I think he is obvious OT.
any advice?

[katie80]

Well, are you sure he is LSN? You mentioned that he used to take a lot of 30min naps, which could indicate LSN or that he was just a developmentally short napper for awhile. You also mentioned that he's never really had a routine before 6mo. At 6mo, did he start taking longer naps? Has he ever had a consistent 2-nap routine?

Yes, there is likely a little bit of OT when starting a new, 'set' routine, but if it persists or keeps getting worse, it may not be the right routine for him. I'd follow his cues for a couple days and just let him nap and see what happens. If he's up at 5:30 and ready to sleep at 8:30, then put him down and let him sleep. Same for afternoon nap. Keep track of your EASYs and we'll take a look and see if we can figure out something that works for him. (((Hugs)))

[gejun]

I agree with you and from today morning I just follow his cues to see what happens, let him sleep as he wanted. he maybe a LSN, since he borned, his sleep is not longer , always 30mins, at 5 month, when the moring nap , I rocked him to sleep, but once put him down , he awake suddenly at the monment he touch the bed, he was very tired at noon since he fight the morning nap,so only two catnap during 5~5.5month, but great night (even more than 12hrs)at that time with one bottle formula around 2~4am. at the same time ,he stop the formula during night and sleep though all night from 19:30 to 6:15~6.20 , I think he need more sleep in day,so I trained him to sleep himself, at the first day he sleep himself, his nap became longer, morning 1.5,and 2hr noon, but in later days, he became wake earlier 5:00~5:30, always sleep again finallly wake at 6:45~7:00, everyday was different, and day nap became 40~1.5hr, seldom 2 hrs.sometims wake from day nap and after several mins fall in sleep again ,but alway unhappy if the nap was unconsistant.  I never get 12 hours night when his nap became longer.

I tried to consistant 2-nap routine in march for one week, but never get a 2hrs , so he always tired around 18：00~18:30， I expect BT 19:00.so I just pull him to 19:00 or earlier BT sometime, at that time, no NW, always wake at 6:20, it's regretful I lost the records. then i try to cut he moring nap to 30 min, but still cann't get longer 2nap , during this period, NW seldom, but recently, EW every night, the longest wake always was around 4:00 , last over 1hr.

 I am not sure how many sleep he need because of the mess now, so I will take coulple of days to take records, let him sleep when he want and as long as he want.

[gejun]

I just find some records when LO  is 6 month, could you analyse for me? I just follow his cues or according the A times.
no  wake him except some moring at 7:00.

2.28
Wu:6:50, with a awake at 5:30 the fall sleep again
S:8:57~10:17
S:12:43~14:00     
S:16:50~17:35, I can’t remember exactly,he fight the nap
BT 19:40(fall in sleep)
3.01
Wu: 5:20(cried some times last night)
S:8:27~9:00
S:12.25~14:15
S:16:30~17:00
BT:19:30(fall in sleep)
3.02
WU:7:00 (I wake him, he must awake sometimes around 5 and fall sleep again)
S:9:00~10.20
S:12:56~14:35
S:17:02~17:40
BT: 19:30(not sure, must before 19:45)
3.03
Wu:6:00 (awake at 4:40,then light sleep
S:8:30~9:40
S:12.25~13.05
S:16:05~16:45
BT:19:10(fall in sleep)
3.04
Wu:7:00  wake at 5:00, then light sleep or awake, till 6:00 fall sleep again
S:9:15~9:55
S:12:42~14:05
S:17:05~17:45
BT:19:12(fall in sleep)
3.05
Wu: 6:00
S:8:50~9:35
S:12:25~13:05
S:16:05~16:50
BT:19:15
3.06
Wu:6:50(wake at 5:00 the fall in sleep at 6:00)
S:8:50~9:20
S:12:35~13:15
S:16:15~17:00
BT:19:15
3.07
WU 7:20(wake at 5:40 then sleep again at 6:40)
S:9:20~10:35
S:12:58~13:50
The other records lost
3:08
Wu: 6:40 (awake at 4:30 then fall sleep at 5:30)
S:8:55~9:50
S:12.23~13:50
Fight the CN around 17:00
BT: 18:50 (OT)
3.09
WU6:40 (awake at 5:00 then sleep at 5:20)
S:8:35~9:35
S:12:35~14:00
S:16:55~17:42
BT:19:13
3.10
WU:5:40
S:8:15~9:25
S:12:25~13:05
S:16:05~16:55
BT:19:28
3.11
WU:7:00(awake at 4:40, fall in sleep at 6:20 , wake him at 7:00)
S:9:13~10.00
S:12:36~14:53
BT: 19:03

[gejun]

after post these records, I got some idea, I think at 6 month, LO need around 13h 15mins,  I count the sleep in time on morning to day sleep.
It seems like that we fall in a bad cirle for sleep in on morning, and with a sleep in , I cann't get a ideal nap in daytime, maybe the sleep in like a first nap, and the last nap extend the day longth, so he was OT, and wake ealier and then sleep in.
I think maybe the sleep in result in different routine failed ,because when I think I set a morning nap, it's the second nap in fact.

when his nap became longer, he was UT, so he happy when got up ealier, but I set three nap to get to BT 19:00, so maybe the daytime too long for him,and he became OT, and maybe that's why he fight the last nap,we fall in a bad circle always. 

now I hope I can get a consistant night, then maybe some LSN routine will work,  with Nw now ,I cann't wake him at 4:00am, but after 5:00, it's sleep in time , it will effect follow naps dramatically.

[katie80]

Hmm, I don't know that I'd count any sleep after 5am as sleeping in. It seems like he does best with a 6-6:30am wake-up. It looks like what might have happened after he started sleeping two good naps was that he started to get UT (the naps shortened and he had some happy NW/EW), but then ended up OT with the long days.

I do think a routine like Marta or I have suggested above will likely work for him, it's just a matter of getting there, which means setting it and sticking with it for a good couple weeks. And I don't know that you can wait until NWs are gone to do that, as the two are often connected. Is there any way you can help him back to sleep when he wakes early in order to get him to the wake-up you need? Then, it would be a bit easier to push him to the set times and hold there.

How have the last couple days gone, does he seem to have caught up? (((Hugs))), it's hard to always feel like you're chasing after a routine.

[gejun]

I will try to help him back to sleep when he wakes early .
It seems like when I found someting, he changed quickly ,and I lost the point for the new routine.
I Know it is mess totally, he A in after morning nap became short, to 2hrs. If I successfully help him to back to sleep, but his second is not long enough, what should I do? A CN around 16:17:00
day 4.28
BT 19:00， fall sleep at 19:22
NW:12:00 sleep again quick
2:00 sleep again quick
4:00 awake, cann't sleep again, till 5:20
then awake 6:50
day4.29
wu   6:50（maybe Ｉshould wake him 6:00•6:30）
s:9:24~9:57 wake him, happy
s:12:40~13:10(wake and cry), OT?
s:16:10-16:30(he wake himself, cry)
BT:19:00
22:00 cry

day 4.30
wake 12:00 and 3:00 wake and fall sleep again quickly
4:20~5:00 wake
5:20 wake
s:8.14~9.28(wake himself, with yawns)
s:12:14~13:30(looks like tired when 11:30)
BT: 17:55, he fight a nap aound 16:00, so ,,,,maybe did a mistake.
20:20 cry , I calm him down, 21:00 sleep
4:00 wake, 5:00sleep,
5:45 wake
Day 5.1
S;7:52~8:20
S:10:55~12:03
S:15:30~16:30
BT:19:00
DAY 5.2
Wake 3:00,I am not sure how many sleep between3~4:00
Wake 6:15
Day 5.3
S:8:45~9:30
s12:00~13:00
s:16:30~17:00(I wake him for BT)
day 5.3
wake 2:00, from 2:00~6:10( I fell wake 40mins then sleep a while )but from 5:00,it seems no sleep
even if show tired cues, he smile to me, but put him down he sleep within several mins with little cry. Now his cues not obvious.

[gejun]

I tried Martii routine for one week, only two nights are ok, but SOON seems worse, his noon nap became shorter and shorter.
And NW became long
Maybe because the sleep from 6:30~7:00, but some day, even if wake at 6:00. Still worse NW,and he unhappy when wake him up after 20mins
Even if the same day, different night.

[gejun]

Also, for your routine, the moring A is 3.5 hours, it seems too long for Lo, is because a long night sleep, for Martii routine, after 20mins, I feel he tried before the noon nap
When you put down a baby, If he not tired, could him sleep too?just only more time to settle?
I found after a full nap , 40min, he can wake 3hr, but 3omin or less, maybe 2.5hr ,maybe because his night sleep not good?

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry to see you are still struggling.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about his sleep and awake times.
Is English a second language for you? It may be possible for us to get some translation on this thread to support you better.  We do have a few volunteer translators in the community depending what language would be helpful. Do you have a preferred language?

Also if you feel this routine is not working for your LO it is fine to change. It looks like you tried for a week, it's up to you, you could continue with this approach, or you can change approach.
How about letting him sleep as long as he likes for the first nap for the next few days so he can catch up on lost sleep?  If I am reading your message correctly he is sleeping less for nap 2 and also waking at night, so probably OT by this point.