how to arrange the naps if DS is LSN to avoid NW?

[gejun]

thanks for the translation. I write down to save time since we are in different time, maybe KOE2MOE could check it if the English is not correct.
5月12日和13日的晚上非常好，几乎没有长时间的夜醒。12th MAY and 13th MAY , nights looks much better, only very short NW, obviously little OT. but yesterday he refuse the nap in pram, so much overtired, and night wake more. 
这两个晚上只有几次小哭两声或者醒了很快睡回去，很明显是白天没睡好有些累

5.12
Wu:6:00
S:8:47~9.07
S:12:~14:00, wake and 12:43 and asleep again
S:16:29~16:46
BT:19:00
5.13
WU:5.55. no prolonged NW all night, only some little cry last one or two seconds,
S:8:44~9:04
S:12:00~13:20, he wake then touched his toy, make a noise, so he cann’t asleep again
S:16:20~16:40

5.14
Wu:6:20, no prolonged waking, maybe two NW, but asleep quickly
S: 8:50~9:19,
S:12~14:00, wake at 12:36 and 13:30
He refuse the last nap even in pram till 17:00, but seems tired 17:00, we back home because his dinner. I don't know why he refuse the nap, because he got up late?or noon nap was broken 2hr? but several days ago , same broken 2hr, he was asleep easily in pram.
BT:19:00, he was tired when drink last bottle formula

5.15.
WU:6:20   several short cry during night, obviously OT, at 4:00, wake for ten mins, then suck his thumb ,sleep slightly after that. He yawns after waking up.

Now I don’t know how to do in following days, obviously he was not satisfied with his daysleep, overtired, but not too much, I am not sure if I should increase the length of the first nap to 30mins or put him down earlier.
According my experience, if allow him sleep as much as he want before 9:00, maybe a long nap, to compensate his poor night, but the following nap will be short,  and not sure if he fight the third nap,  then the following morning will be bad also.
I also find wake him up after morning nap at 20mins is not easy, I have to stay at his room, go make sure when he was asleep to decide when to wake him up, I cann’t sure when he was asleep since 20 mins is so strictly.

It seems like we have some similar at 8 month, I think cannt pull him to 11:15 now for his night is with NW, he maybe overtied and only take a short nap at 11:00? How do you do with the transiton? you just pull him to 11:15 someday or gradually with it? lo is 8.5 month now, I think whatever routine , he will needn't three naps, if still do it, maybe result in other problem. nights became better this week maybe because he grow up?  I never got a short morning nap with a long afternoon nap, maybe his nature.

for the question about settled on day nap, he always asleep within 2 mins at 12:00, take 2mins for nap around 8:45 if he get up 6:00, but take 5~8mins if get up 6:20 or 6:30, I make him calm 15mins before nap , with reading stories on my lap, then sing for him
his tired cues are not obvious, he is more intersted in crawl and stand , he is strong and skilled with crawl and stand with a little support.

现在我不知道后面几天该如何做了，他明显对白天的睡眠不太满意，有些过度疲劳，但好像又不是很多。我不确定是否应该增加上午的睡眠到30分钟或是中午提早睡，我可能会让他提早睡。
根据我之前的经验，如果有夜醒，早上又让他随意睡的话，他可能睡的久来弥补晚上的睡眠，但这样会造成白天后面的觉短，而且不确定他会不会抵抗第三个nap. 同时早上睡太多补交的话好像第二天还是会夜醒和早醒，像个恶性循环。
同时我觉得早上睡20分钟叫醒不是很容易，这个太严格了，我不得不呆在他的房间里确定他什么时间睡着的，才能确定什么时间叫醒。

关于入睡的问题，他在中午觉是通常很快入睡，早上如果6点起，8:45很快睡着，如果6:20或更晚起床，可能需要7、8分钟才能睡着。他现在困的信号不是很明显，他更喜欢玩，到处爬和站。

你是如何做８～９个月的转变呢？突然从某一天就直接拖到１１点多睡午觉吗？还是逐步的做？我觉得这周他晚上的睡眠变好可能是长大了缘故，他快９个月了。应该不再睡三觉了，但我不知怎么变成两觉，上午短，下午长之前好像从没成功

[gejun]

for two naps,  is anyone get sucessful on 30 or 40 mins around 9:00 or 9:30, another  nap 13:00 or 13:30,  1h 30mins, (I think we cann't get 2hrs.) , I am not sure if he can keep active before 19:00 after a 1.5hrs nap, 1.5 months ago, he would tired around 18:00, maybe now it's acceptable for he get elder? total day sleep around 2 hrs is max we got, Occasionally we got broken 2hrs nap,with a 40mins morning, NW or EW happened. it's just a ideal ,maybe he will not sleep even 1.5hr now, who knows. if that ,we will have no time to do a cat nap between BT.
I am prudent for change a routine ,because his Nw is not terrible this week. but we are really both tired of  three strict naps, watching clock at morning everyday ,like a slave of naps.
I think too lot maybe these two days, for the Nw has last so long ,nearly two months， don't know what will happened next day, if it will be better when he grow up, talking it out feel better.

我对换一个方式目前有些担心，因为夜醒好像不那么严重了，但是对于每天三个严格的nap,我已经很累了，每天看表叫醒他，像个小睡的奴隶。
他的白天睡眠量之前只最多两个小时，偶尔出现大于两个小时的断裂的午睡，当晚就会夜醒或早醒。
不知有没有人成功过上午睡30或40分钟，下午一个半小时就能坚持到晚上7点睡觉，以前我的宝宝达不到，总在18:00困的不行，现在不知长大后是否可以呢？可能只是理想状态，也许随着他长大了，下午连1个半小时也睡不了了，如果那样的话，晚上睡觉前连再加个CN的时间都没有了。

讲了很多，感觉好一些，夜醒持续了太长时间，快两个月了，每天不知道第二天会怎样，不知道他长大到什么时候会改善，实在有些exhausted.

[Martini~]

Oh Honey, I am very sorry you are so exhausted.

Can I ask if I get right - he is self settling during his night wakings? So you call his short cryouts at night a NW? Even if you are not needed for resettling?
On his naps, does he resettle by him self?

[gejun]

yes, resettled is not needed during night and day nap, only this week, short cryouts. but one week ago, Nw kept longer, but he didn't cryout, I try to feed, rocking him was no use, he finally was asleep again after a long waking.

yesterday, he fight the afternoon 20mins nap before 17:00 in pram, so very tired at BT.
he just woke from 1hr 30mins borken noon nap, he cried to end up the nap unlike before he could resettled himself. I think he will need a afternnon nap today.

I'd like to learn what happened during your one month transiton,  since he had used to be a routine, it's smooth with new time table or mess?

[gejun]

亲爱的 Koe2moe,
帮我翻译下下面这些：
当把宝宝放到小床上时，什么时间开始计时是他睡着呢？闭上眼睛，没有声音，身体不动？ 如果闭上眼睛，身体不动，但在吸手指是不是不能算作睡着的开始？我发现唯一一次午睡两小时是在我认为他睡着后的24~25分钟，而不是20分钟。是不是我开始计时的时间不对？

I have a question about when to "start the clock" as baby is asleep？I just find the only day I got 2hrs solid noon nap, after a 25mins nap , not 20mins. I've been using the moment he became quiet even if he still suck his thrum as the start time, is it too early?

[Martini~]

Honey, cryouts at night with self settling shouldn't be counted as night waking. If he goes back to sleep quickly, that's great.

Re 20min nap, I have put DS down and counted roughly 20min (sometimes it was 18 sometimes 22). I would start to put him down at 8:30 let's say and wake at 9, so sometimes he will take 20, sometimes 25, sometimes 18. Reason why Shayne doesn't recommend longer nap is not because it's too long but because it maybe tough to wake baby at 25' mark as they entered deep sleep. But frankly speaking we have never seen that with my DS.

The reason he slept solid 2h just confirms that he is slightly OT. So either start to give him 25' nap in the morning, or put him down 11:50 for a nap. Cap morning nap or push noon nap later when he stops doing 2h.

Remember than when he is not taking afternoon nap he will be tired not only this evening but probably also next morning. The reason he is taking different time to settle in the morning is that sometimes he is less sometimes more tired. It's normal.

I wouldn't wake him from a noon nap if he is sleeping longer than 2h. Even Shayne suggests that this nap might be longer. It should enable him to self regulate (if he needs he will take a longer nap) and should enable you to eliminate evening nap.

HTH

[koe2moe]

I was out the whole day.  Sorry no computer time. 

Gejun, I hope that what Marti posted is clear.  The answer to "when to start counting as bedtime?" Doesn't need to be so exact, as Marti said. 
Mantra cries is self settling skills and when you don't need to help, it doesn't count as NW.

Oh Chinese lol
有时候多几分钟，少几分钟，是正常的。只要不超过25分钟，因为可能进入了深睡的阶段，那样比较难叫醒LO。
晚上一两声叫声，又不需要你帮助的，不算NW，这是正常睡眠阶段的转接。
希望现在请楚一点吧。

Koe

[gejun]

好的，这个明白了。另外我想如果这个routine也不适合我们话，开始一个较长的觉和在11:15和一个16:00左右的nap, 怎么做转换？
ok, I got it.  what should I　do if I want to make transition to routine with  a long am and a short CN around 16:00?

[Martini~]

Push first nap Honey - slowly or quickly, depending how your LO would prefer and stop capping. First days this nap will be short probably. But when you get to around 10:30/11:00 he should start doing a longer one. And the offer a second nap around 3:30/4:00 for 10-30min depending what your LO needs. Mine needed solid 30min in the afternoon after 1.5h 11am nap and still was very tired at BT.

[gejun]

Dear Kooe2moe,could you translate for me following?你能帮我翻译下下面这些吗？
(((Hugs))), I'm sorry I'm having a hard time consistently getting on to help! 

I think you have a couple viable options...
1)
Quote from: creations on May 04, 2015, 22:30:22 PM
How about letting him sleep as long as he likes for the first nap for the next few days so he can catch up on lost sleep?
I think I suggested this above. Have you ever tried to do just a standard routine with him? It looks to me from you EASYs above that his ideal A time is likely around 3-3.5hr. What about putting him down around then and letting him sleep and then doing the same for the second nap, waking him up to keep a 12-13hr day (whatever is your preference)?

Or...
2)
Quote from: gejun on May 03, 2015, 09:35:08 AM
I found after a full nap , 40min, he can wake 3hr, but 3omin or less, maybe 2.5hr ,maybe because his night sleep not good?
Then maybe we need to alter the original plan and do something like this...
WU 6am
Nap 1 9-9:40am
Nap 2 12:40-2:40pm
BT 6:30/7pm

I'll let you look at Katie80's suggestions above so as not to confuse things by offering more advice. We were doing something very similar to the second option she suggested at 8 months if that helps. In fact, we had our first one nap day at that age, but jack really is very LSN, so I wouldn't suggest trying that right now! Anyway, just wanted to let you know I've totally been there, I know it's horrible, and I also know that it does get better (I promise!) X
我想他们的这两个建议我大概明白，也都试过，是我最早的做法，但遇到的问题都是两个nap,无论如何，最后一个都不够长，然后都是18:00就困了，这样就会一天一天醒的更早。

[gejun]

at first days, the first nap before 10:30 and short, how do deal with the second nap, same 30mins at 15~16?  if only two short naps whole day, will Lo be overtired , right?

[gejun]

I have tried similar with Katie80's suggestion in March, at least two weeks for each. the first one like let him sleep as he want. the second one is a short moring nap with a long nap, same problems are when two naps, the last one 1.5hr max, always 1hr 15min, he was very tired before BT 19:00, If allow a CN, the nap always too late, up 17:00 or later. if earlier BT, wake earlier next moring.
for the routine 20mins,your LO could get a great night  with different length of noon nap ,.but my LO didn't.
It's seems like all routines didn't work.

[Martini~]

at first days, the first nap before 10:30 and short, how do deal with the second nap, same 30mins at 15~16?  if only two short naps whole day, will Lo be overtired , right?

I am sorry for misexplaining. In the end, first nap should be long (1.5h) but when it's short, just put LO for a second nap around 3h after wake up from first one and let him sleep at least 1.5h so ie:
10:30-11:00
14:00-15:30

[gejun]

sorry my English is not good enough. I guess your WU is around 6:30? I mean at first days,LO need time to adapt pushing his A,  when the first nap is before 10:30, for example begin at 9:30, but short,  how to deal with the second nap

[Martini~]

Just play with nap times. Any A between 2.5-4h could be fine for your LO depending of how many times a day he has it.

So with nap at 9:30 his morning A is around 3h, so you can push for second a to be 3.5 let say and have a nap at 13:30/14:30 depending when will he wake from the nap.