Early morning drink milk- AP I think :-(

[Newbie mum]

Hello, my dd is 13months and 3 weeks. Napping and sleeping well, but I think I've made a mistake and now she wakes around 6-6.30am (today it was 5.30am) has a bit of milk and then goes straight back to sleep until about 7-7.30am...I think I have caused this and would like it to stop.
My dd self settles to sleep. She has a cuddle and bottle in her room but goes down to her bed awake, waves goodbye to me and then puts herself to sleep. But when she was transitioning from 2 naps to 1 and I was in a bit of muddle I gave her some milk to help her get to sleep and now we seem to be in a bit of habit of waking early for a little bit of milk. My dd does have a very good appetite and I wonder if she could actually be hungry? but I think it might be more of a habit.
As she can self settle to sleep I don't think its a prop that she needs to go to sleep as she sleeps without any wake ups from 7.30pm until that waking.
I look forward to your advice please!

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there

Have you ever used any sleep training methods previously with her? I ask as it is good to know what has worked in the past.

I'm thinking that whatever method you have previously used, now might be a good time to change up the BT routine a little and stop milk in the mornings at the same time. If you could bring evening milk a little earlier (and perhaps out of the bedroom) then brush teeth and go to her room after that this will help to separate the milk from wind down routine. You could always offer water in her room if she aeems thirsty.

You could also have water available for the morning WU (if you want to offer it then).

If she won't settle either at BT or that NW then you can use your chosen sleep training method to help her back to sleep. Here is a link to toddler-suitable ST methods to help you:

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

Let me know what you think

[Newbie mum]

Hello, yes that makes sense.
I put a lot of effort into my daughters naps and sleeping. When she did her best sleeping through the night with no early morning milk was when she had her last milk down stairs an we have her 30mins to digest it (she suffered with a windy tummy when she was younger) and then took her up to the bedroom and she self settled to sleep. She didn't used to have any milk directly before naps either but now we are giving milk in the bed room before naps and bed so perhaps she is getting dependent on that.

I guess I did a form of gradual retreat. I started by sitting with her holding my hand reading to her a she fell asleep, then just holding my finger, then not touching me and just me reading, then nothing at all.

She waves goodbye to me when I lay her in the cot so knows it's bed time and tells me when she wants to go to bed.

Would you start withdrawing the milk from the nap or bedtime first? I will eventually work on her not having any milk before naps and just a snack as she used to do x

[Buttonbobs]

If it were me I'd go for no milk before any sleeping at all, and start with the nap so if you have any difficulty getting her to sleep then itms the nap first when you'll have more energy. Are you planning on doing it gradually by offering less each time or are you planning to offer the same amount slightly earlier and further away from the bedroom each time? Or by taking it away straight away and offering at a separate time, but then the gradual withdrawal being the removal of your comforting presence? Personally, I'd go for the third option as I think it is clearer for the LO to understand, but we can work with whatever you feel suits her best.

[Newbie mum]

Hello,
So I've finally had the chance to start moving the milk away from sleeping and I have started tonight.
My husband gave her bedtime bottle downstairs and we let her play for a while after it (as quiet play as possible) and then took her up to bed. She took half an hour to settle (normally goes straight down with the milk so I think that shows that she probably was quite dependent upon the milk, plus she is very tired from nursery and poor nap there).
I persevered and did not give her any more milk but did give her some water from her sippy cup. I went in and out of her room but finally left when she was awake so she would have seen me leave and she went to sleep. Not sure what the night will hold but I do want her to go back to STTN as she did before (and that was when she had milk well separated from sleep times, and I think I had stopped giving milk before the nap and she had a solid snack instead). Like I said before, the milk crept back in when she transitioned from 2 to 1 nap so I want to get back on track again. I know that nursery don't give her milk before her nap (and she'll be there tomorrow so that won't back track on what I've started) and I'll keep going tomorrow and then she's home with me so I can work on the naps.

Do you think this is the right thing? x

[Buttonbobs]

Well done lovely, this sounds like a great start!

I would keep going as you are, and if you're going all out, make sure you don't offer any milk to resettle those EWs either. This may result in a few days with less sleep but she will get there. Feel free to post your EAS and any thoughts as you work through this. Holding your hand x

[Newbie mum]

Thanks for your lovely message.
Not giving the milk didn't go well and she woke many times in the night. It wasn't fair for my husband having to go to work (not great for my dd or me either!) so I gave her some milk and she slept.
I'm not sure if she might be teething also? as she seems to wake with a 'sharp' cry if that makes sense, which isn't normal for her and so we have put teething gel on and some calpol and that settled her.
So, I've probably done the wrong thing..

I've put teething gel onto her gums and given her some ibuprofen before she went to bed tonight so will see if that does anything.

I've started waking her after she has slept for 2hours (she would sleep for longer if not woken) for her nap so I'm also wondering if that is a suitable nap length.

Her EAS is:
Awake approx 0645 (has a cup of milk)
Nap 11am (this is becoming a set time now and she comes and tells me, with sign language, that she wants to go to bed). She has a small amount of milk before the nap.
I wake her after 2 hours
Bed 7pm (again she tells me she wants to go to bed then).

The set early morning wake seems to have gone and she now wakes anytime from 0230-0530. For the last two nights she has grumbled at about 2230hrs and she sometimes puts herself back to sleep and has the one wake for a little milk. So on a good night she wakes once for milk.

Would be grateful for your thoughts

[Newbie mum]

Well last night she slept solidly from going down to bed until 0630, had a drop of milk and has just woken at 0820 :-)

I've just looked on 'wonder weeks' and she's in the middle of a 'leap' right now. Not sure if the leaps are accurate but maybe that is playing a part too?

[Buttonbobs]

This developmental stuff can play havoc with sleep for sure, I'd keep an eye on it but if it passes then it is probably developmental.

Please don't feel like you've "done the wrong thing" honey. It sounds to me like you listened to your LO and followed your instincts, which is the only thing we can ever really do as mothers. You did what felt right in the moment

May I ask, what was it that changed that led you to capping her nap at 2 hours? I ask only because it would not be unusual at this age to have a longer nap (perhaps 3 hours even). Was she starting to fight BT or were you wondering if this is what was causing the earlier wake ups?

[Newbie mum]

Thanks :-) I'm trying to teach her to sign so that she can tell me what she wants and she seems to pick things up quickly and it really helps us. Yesterday and today she has been pointing at her teeth and grimacing so I do think they are causing her pain.

I capped the nap for both the reasons you mentioned. She would sleep for over 3hours if I didn't wake her (I always feel very mean waking her as she is in such a nice, deep sleep and part of me thinks that if she is sleeping for so long then her body must need it. Plus she has always been a little girl who likes her sleep and has liked to take long naps).

There were occasions when she was far too awake at bedtime and I wondered if the long nap was the cause, and if it was the cause of her waking early.

Interestingly though, for two nights in a row (but not last night) she has grumbled and woken at about 2230hrs and I did wonder if this because she was OT, but now thinking about her teeth I wonder if it was that.

Would you let her sleep for 3hours?

[Newbie mum]

meant to ask..if she's going to bed (eyes closed asleep) at 7.30pm can I expect her to sleep beyond 0630am? I thought babies/toddlers of her age slept on average for 11hours over night?

[Buttonbobs]

I think the average sleep times are just that. My DD only slept a 3 hour nap once, and I spent the whole of the last hour wondering if something was wrong with her.

If your LO has always taken longer naps then it might be that she is higher sleep needs than mine. Have you cut from over 3 hours down to 2 slowly or suddenly?

I don't think it's usual for some LOs to have shorter nights and longer naps, it's about what suits her really. And definitely if there is some teething discomfort at the moment this will confuse the sleep further. If you can offer meds or something prior to sleep it can help. Feel free to post your EAS if you'd like us to take a look.

[Newbie mum]

Hello, no I didn't cut the nap gradually, just went from 3hours to 2, perhaps I should have done it a bit more gradually.

So..she has slept one full night waking at 0610 but other than that one nap she has continued to wake once, somewhere between 3 and 4am, has milk then straight back to sleep and for the last 2 nights she has then again woken at 0610 but not happily and I suspect if we gave more milk she would go back to sleep. Does that suggest anything to you?

She goes to nursery on a Monday and Tuesday and has never slept brilliantly there, best 1 hour but recently has not been sleeping well at all, perhaps 20minutes. So, on Wednesday I let her sleep as much as she wanted for her nap and she slept for 3 hours. Today she was unusually clingy but I'm not sure why. She didn't have a good night, waking at 4am and not happy with the small amount of milk I gave her and then woke again at 0610 but not happy. She was very tired and clingy all morning and not her happy self and signed to me that she wanted to go to bed at about 0930, so she did and slept for 2 hours. Then she again signed to say she was tired at about 4pm and so I put her back to bed.
She was happier after her sleep and has gone back to bed later than normal (to be expected) and I will wait to see what the night holds..

I am having another go at moving the milk away from immediately before bed. Tonight we gave it in our bedroom with a story and then brushed her teeth. I will try to keep to this.

What do you think? :-)

[Newbie mum]

p.s. the 0610 wake is too early for us..she used to sleep until 0800ish but when she started nursery we started getting her up for 7am..but the 0610 wake us is new.

[Newbie mum]

Hmmm.. The following day she was tired early and went for her nap very early at 0930 and slept for 2 hours. Was quite clingy that day which isn't normal for her and asked to go for an afternoon nap which she did. That night she slept better, STTN until 0630 then had a bottle of milk and went straight back to sleep until 8am.
I wonder if she would prefer to go back to two naps?
Unfortunately we are at grandparents house and she hates sleeping away from home so we've had an awful night :-(