Early morning drink milk- AP I think :-(

[Newbie mum]

Hello, my dd is 13months and 3 weeks. Napping and sleeping well, but I think I've made a mistake and now she wakes around 6-6.30am (today it was 5.30am) has a bit of milk and then goes straight back to sleep until about 7-7.30am...I think I have caused this and would like it to stop.
My dd self settles to sleep. She has a cuddle and bottle in her room but goes down to her bed awake, waves goodbye to me and then puts herself to sleep. But when she was transitioning from 2 naps to 1 and I was in a bit of muddle I gave her some milk to help her get to sleep and now we seem to be in a bit of habit of waking early for a little bit of milk. My dd does have a very good appetite and I wonder if she could actually be hungry? but I think it might be more of a habit.
As she can self settle to sleep I don't think its a prop that she needs to go to sleep as she sleeps without any wake ups from 7.30pm until that waking.
I look forward to your advice please!

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there

Have you ever used any sleep training methods previously with her? I ask as it is good to know what has worked in the past.

I'm thinking that whatever method you have previously used, now might be a good time to change up the BT routine a little and stop milk in the mornings at the same time. If you could bring evening milk a little earlier (and perhaps out of the bedroom) then brush teeth and go to her room after that this will help to separate the milk from wind down routine. You could always offer water in her room if she aeems thirsty.

You could also have water available for the morning WU (if you want to offer it then).

If she won't settle either at BT or that NW then you can use your chosen sleep training method to help her back to sleep. Here is a link to toddler-suitable ST methods to help you:

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

Let me know what you think

[Newbie mum]

Hello, yes that makes sense.
I put a lot of effort into my daughters naps and sleeping. When she did her best sleeping through the night with no early morning milk was when she had her last milk down stairs an we have her 30mins to digest it (she suffered with a windy tummy when she was younger) and then took her up to the bedroom and she self settled to sleep. She didn't used to have any milk directly before naps either but now we are giving milk in the bed room before naps and bed so perhaps she is getting dependent on that.

I guess I did a form of gradual retreat. I started by sitting with her holding my hand reading to her a she fell asleep, then just holding my finger, then not touching me and just me reading, then nothing at all.

She waves goodbye to me when I lay her in the cot so knows it's bed time and tells me when she wants to go to bed.

Would you start withdrawing the milk from the nap or bedtime first? I will eventually work on her not having any milk before naps and just a snack as she used to do x

[Buttonbobs]

If it were me I'd go for no milk before any sleeping at all, and start with the nap so if you have any difficulty getting her to sleep then itms the nap first when you'll have more energy. Are you planning on doing it gradually by offering less each time or are you planning to offer the same amount slightly earlier and further away from the bedroom each time? Or by taking it away straight away and offering at a separate time, but then the gradual withdrawal being the removal of your comforting presence? Personally, I'd go for the third option as I think it is clearer for the LO to understand, but we can work with whatever you feel suits her best.

[Newbie mum]

Hello,
So I've finally had the chance to start moving the milk away from sleeping and I have started tonight.
My husband gave her bedtime bottle downstairs and we let her play for a while after it (as quiet play as possible) and then took her up to bed. She took half an hour to settle (normally goes straight down with the milk so I think that shows that she probably was quite dependent upon the milk, plus she is very tired from nursery and poor nap there).
I persevered and did not give her any more milk but did give her some water from her sippy cup. I went in and out of her room but finally left when she was awake so she would have seen me leave and she went to sleep. Not sure what the night will hold but I do want her to go back to STTN as she did before (and that was when she had milk well separated from sleep times, and I think I had stopped giving milk before the nap and she had a solid snack instead). Like I said before, the milk crept back in when she transitioned from 2 to 1 nap so I want to get back on track again. I know that nursery don't give her milk before her nap (and she'll be there tomorrow so that won't back track on what I've started) and I'll keep going tomorrow and then she's home with me so I can work on the naps.

Do you think this is the right thing? x

[Buttonbobs]

Well done lovely, this sounds like a great start!

I would keep going as you are, and if you're going all out, make sure you don't offer any milk to resettle those EWs either. This may result in a few days with less sleep but she will get there. Feel free to post your EAS and any thoughts as you work through this. Holding your hand x

[Newbie mum]

Thanks for your lovely message.
Not giving the milk didn't go well and she woke many times in the night. It wasn't fair for my husband having to go to work (not great for my dd or me either!) so I gave her some milk and she slept.
I'm not sure if she might be teething also? as she seems to wake with a 'sharp' cry if that makes sense, which isn't normal for her and so we have put teething gel on and some calpol and that settled her.
So, I've probably done the wrong thing..

I've put teething gel onto her gums and given her some ibuprofen before she went to bed tonight so will see if that does anything.

I've started waking her after she has slept for 2hours (she would sleep for longer if not woken) for her nap so I'm also wondering if that is a suitable nap length.

Her EAS is:
Awake approx 0645 (has a cup of milk)
Nap 11am (this is becoming a set time now and she comes and tells me, with sign language, that she wants to go to bed). She has a small amount of milk before the nap.
I wake her after 2 hours
Bed 7pm (again she tells me she wants to go to bed then).

The set early morning wake seems to have gone and she now wakes anytime from 0230-0530. For the last two nights she has grumbled at about 2230hrs and she sometimes puts herself back to sleep and has the one wake for a little milk. So on a good night she wakes once for milk.

Would be grateful for your thoughts

[Newbie mum]

Well last night she slept solidly from going down to bed until 0630, had a drop of milk and has just woken at 0820 :-)

I've just looked on 'wonder weeks' and she's in the middle of a 'leap' right now. Not sure if the leaps are accurate but maybe that is playing a part too?

[Buttonbobs]

This developmental stuff can play havoc with sleep for sure, I'd keep an eye on it but if it passes then it is probably developmental.

Please don't feel like you've "done the wrong thing" honey. It sounds to me like you listened to your LO and followed your instincts, which is the only thing we can ever really do as mothers. You did what felt right in the moment

May I ask, what was it that changed that led you to capping her nap at 2 hours? I ask only because it would not be unusual at this age to have a longer nap (perhaps 3 hours even). Was she starting to fight BT or were you wondering if this is what was causing the earlier wake ups?

[Newbie mum]

Thanks :-) I'm trying to teach her to sign so that she can tell me what she wants and she seems to pick things up quickly and it really helps us. Yesterday and today she has been pointing at her teeth and grimacing so I do think they are causing her pain.

I capped the nap for both the reasons you mentioned. She would sleep for over 3hours if I didn't wake her (I always feel very mean waking her as she is in such a nice, deep sleep and part of me thinks that if she is sleeping for so long then her body must need it. Plus she has always been a little girl who likes her sleep and has liked to take long naps).

There were occasions when she was far too awake at bedtime and I wondered if the long nap was the cause, and if it was the cause of her waking early.

Interestingly though, for two nights in a row (but not last night) she has grumbled and woken at about 2230hrs and I did wonder if this because she was OT, but now thinking about her teeth I wonder if it was that.

Would you let her sleep for 3hours?

[Newbie mum]

meant to ask..if she's going to bed (eyes closed asleep) at 7.30pm can I expect her to sleep beyond 0630am? I thought babies/toddlers of her age slept on average for 11hours over night?

[Buttonbobs]

I think the average sleep times are just that. My DD only slept a 3 hour nap once, and I spent the whole of the last hour wondering if something was wrong with her.

If your LO has always taken longer naps then it might be that she is higher sleep needs than mine. Have you cut from over 3 hours down to 2 slowly or suddenly?

I don't think it's usual for some LOs to have shorter nights and longer naps, it's about what suits her really. And definitely if there is some teething discomfort at the moment this will confuse the sleep further. If you can offer meds or something prior to sleep it can help. Feel free to post your EAS if you'd like us to take a look.

[Newbie mum]

Hello, no I didn't cut the nap gradually, just went from 3hours to 2, perhaps I should have done it a bit more gradually.

So..she has slept one full night waking at 0610 but other than that one nap she has continued to wake once, somewhere between 3 and 4am, has milk then straight back to sleep and for the last 2 nights she has then again woken at 0610 but not happily and I suspect if we gave more milk she would go back to sleep. Does that suggest anything to you?

She goes to nursery on a Monday and Tuesday and has never slept brilliantly there, best 1 hour but recently has not been sleeping well at all, perhaps 20minutes. So, on Wednesday I let her sleep as much as she wanted for her nap and she slept for 3 hours. Today she was unusually clingy but I'm not sure why. She didn't have a good night, waking at 4am and not happy with the small amount of milk I gave her and then woke again at 0610 but not happy. She was very tired and clingy all morning and not her happy self and signed to me that she wanted to go to bed at about 0930, so she did and slept for 2 hours. Then she again signed to say she was tired at about 4pm and so I put her back to bed.
She was happier after her sleep and has gone back to bed later than normal (to be expected) and I will wait to see what the night holds..

I am having another go at moving the milk away from immediately before bed. Tonight we gave it in our bedroom with a story and then brushed her teeth. I will try to keep to this.

What do you think? :-)

[Newbie mum]

p.s. the 0610 wake is too early for us..she used to sleep until 0800ish but when she started nursery we started getting her up for 7am..but the 0610 wake us is new.

[Newbie mum]

Hmmm.. The following day she was tired early and went for her nap very early at 0930 and slept for 2 hours. Was quite clingy that day which isn't normal for her and asked to go for an afternoon nap which she did. That night she slept better, STTN until 0630 then had a bottle of milk and went straight back to sleep until 8am.
I wonder if she would prefer to go back to two naps?
Unfortunately we are at grandparents house and she hates sleeping away from home so we've had an awful night :-(

[becj86]

How old is she? If >14 months, I wouldn't backtrack now you're on one nap. She could be wanting more sleep to make up for poor night sleep while away from home or she may be ill. Those morning wakings sound developmental to me :-/

[Newbie mum]

Hello, yes she's 14 months. She has stayed on one nap and I let her sleep for 3 hours (I have to wake her as she would sleep on).
She's done the odd STTN from 7.30pm to 0630am but then other nights she might wake for some milk (immediately go back to sleep after it) and then again at 0600. She's eating a lot during the day too so I wonder if I need to give her some more food in the day.
Perhaps, as you say it's developmental?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I would say if she is waking for milk and going back to bed that it is more of a habit than anything...have you still been doing a bottle right at bedtime too? This was about the age that we pushed that back to before bathtime. If she is eating plenty in the day nw & ew now are usually down to development or discomfort, not hunger. If you want to stop the ew habit the only option with a toddler is just to decide to stop and follow through with whatever sleep training method worked before (like wi/wo or gw).

[Newbie mum]

Thanks. Y
es she still has a bottle of milk just before bed, in fact its part of her bedtime routine and the last thing (before brushing teeth) that she has before bed. What would you recommend regarding the night bottle? Should I try and get rid of it?

I really want her to STTN so I will try and give her milk and then have some time before bed.
How long would be long enough?

Today I put her in her pjs, sleeping bag and gave the milk in our bedroom. I was intending to keep her up for a while but she kept signing to me that she wanted to go to bed (and she was tired) so I took her into her room/bed and she went straight down to sleep. I know it does't sound a big improvement but the last time I tried this she would't settle so in a small way it's an improvement.

I will try for her nap tomorrow as well.

[Newbie mum]

I've just re-read the Wi/Wo link that was sent to me in an earlier response and I'm just wondering which will be best for my lo. And it's also made me question her bedtime routine and whether I'm doing the right thing.

The final moment before putting her in her cot is her sitting on my lap having her bottle of milk (we're now brushing teeth too). She goes into her cot awake but obviously sleepy. Is this suitable? or am I being a prop to her? Does it sound like gradual retreat or WI/WO would work best for her?

She has never loved nursery (only goes for two days a week) and the best she has slept there is 1 hour (normally sleeps 3 hours at home). Since the time of her 2-1 nap transition she has slept even more badly at nursery and is only sleeping for only 20mins. She works herself up so much that she is making herself sick and this breaks my heart. Do you think I am doing damage to her by keeping on sending her there?

[becj86]

I reckon if she's sleeping so little at nursery, can you get them to do 2 naps? Just for nursery. The idea there is that she is probably very overstimulated and overtired by nap time there and if she can have two naps, she may cope better. My DS certainly did. He was solidly on one nap at home long before one nap at daycare.

I think if you can gradually move milk earlier in the routine, perhaps read a book (if its not too exciting) on your lap before bed rather than milk? or do milk, then PJs and teeth, then bed... ie. drop milk earlier and earlier in the BT routine til its gone.  Then I reckon GW is possibly more suitable given your current practice.

Can you expand a little on what's happening at nursery? What are they saying to you about her? How comfortable to you feel sending her there? For me, your mothers' instinct is the key part of this - do you feel right leaving her there? What are your reasons for sending her to nursery? Are you working? Concerned about her socialisation? Can you find another place? I guess I speak from the experience of having DS in a daycare where he was happy and then going to a place he was miserable after we moved and it really did make a big difference to him. Had I not known he could be happy at daycare, I may not have taken him out so quickly but he was much better within a week or two of leaving that daycare for another.

[Newbie mum]

I'll give that routine a go and keep my fingers crossed :-)

Re: night wakings: In the baby whisperer book it said to try and avoid picking her up or eye contact. Is that correct for her age? As I've said she normally wakes once for milk so should I offer water instead or just go cold turkey and give nothing? how would gradual retreat work over night?

She goes to the nursery that is linked to the hospital I work in. I work two days a week but don't have to for financial reasons which makes it an even harder decision. She's in a small class and when she started there might only be her or 1 or 2 other children on some days. Now more have joined so average is about 6 children I think. They say that she has fun there and they certainly sound like they do fun activities. What makes me sad is that they take pictures of her to show the fun things she has done but she's not smiling like she does at home (or at all) in them and in some she just looks so tired and flat that it makes me feel upset (it's making me feel teary just writing that). She often cries when I drop her off and clings to me like a little monkey (as I carry her in) and other times is ok and waves goodbye, but never over joyed. My instinct is that we just love being together, I know that sounds really stupid but we are like 'best friends' and have so much fun just the two of us. I hate leaving her and it looks like she feels the same. To be honest I think that even if she went to the best childcare in the world she always prefer to be at home with me.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Would daycare be willing to offer her two naps until she adjusts to the stimulation? If she is just tired there but still enjoys it (I know nothing is like being home with mom though!) then I would see what they can do to help.

For the morning milk - not sure I would sub water at this point unless you put a spill proof sippy you know she can work in her bed at night and while you do gradual withdrawal just point her to it if she wants a drink. Mine had a sport type sippy at that age for water. Something she can control that you don't have to bring to her, it is already there.

[becj86]

Sounds like she could really do with two naps at nursery - its not unusual and may help her. 20min nap sounds like she's OT or OS or both by nap time, poor little thing. DS having two naps worked really well for him, he was better rested, got a bit of time in the room almost one on one with a carer when the other kids were all sleeping so wasn't on the go all day (by his standards).

Would they maybe help her with somewhere to do a quiet activity as wind down before bed? I know a lot of daycares do lunch then wash everyone then put them all in bed and its chaos! Letting her go first or last to bed may help too...

[Newbie mum]

*becj86* the routine you wrote is exactly what they do with my dd at nursery but at home she would have her nap at about 1045-11. I will ask them to do two naps as that sounds like a good idea.

*MasynSpencerElliotte* when you say the morning milk do you mean the 0600ish milk? I did wonder if I could put a cup in her room for her to drink from but didn't know the age from which she would manage, so you think now would be ok (she's almost 15months).

She actually did very well last night. I wasn't feeling very well and she had been a bit poorly in the day so I didn't have the energy to do the full night training but I did give her a lot less milk when she woke at 2am, she protested but I said goodnight and walked out and within a few minutes she had stopped complaining and gone back to sleep until 0600. So this is a good start and I will give her milk in her sip cup downstairs before her nap today.

:-)

[Buttonbobs]

Hi honey, sorry I've not been here as I've been away. You've been getting fab advice from the others though, so just adding some ((hugs)). Sorry to hear you've been feeling unwell, I hope you get well soon. N x

[Newbie mum]

aww, thanks for the lovely message :-) yes I've had some great advice!

I've just have logged on to say that my dd just went down for her nap after having her milk and snack down stairs, bit of a pause as we were having a cuddle then I took her upstairs put her in her sleeping bag and into bed. She sat up at first and I thought she would need more milk in bed but I lay her down, said goodnight and walked out and I could hear her chatting away to her teddy, next thing silence and she's asleep!! yay!! I'll keep increasing the gap between milk and nap/bed. x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yes I meant the 6 am milk...does she use any type of sippy cup currently that is no spill? I think DD1 was between 18 months-2 years when we put the cup in her bed with water, just propped it in the corner with her pile of soothers so she knes where it was.

[Newbie mum]

yes she uses tommy tippee sippy cup for water and I've just bought another bigger non-spill cup for milk so we will no longer use a bottle.

I've just put her to bed with the new bed time routine and touch wood it went well and she is sleeping now.
She had a snack downstairs whilst reading a book with dad. Then milk on dads lap downstairs. Then we went up and brushed teeth, put her into her sleeping bag and into bed. I will keep moving the milk a bit further away but today she has managed it for nap and bedtime :-) . Unfortunately tomorrow is nursery so I can't keep going with it but at least she has done it today. Really hope it helps the overnight wake..fingers crossed!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Fingers crossed for you, sounds like she is going along fine with the change!

[Newbie mum]

A big thank you to all you clever ladies as things are much improved. We were delayed in starting the new bedtime routine due to illness but are getting along with it well now. My dd now has some milk downstairs then goes upstairs brushes teeth, pjs, sleeping bag etc, I read the same story twice (whilst she is sat on my lap) and then I say goodnight to her and her teddy and lay her down in her bed. She now goes straight to sleep without any complaining :-)

The 6am waking seems to have gone and now she wakes happily chatting sometime after 7.20am which is great. (today it was 8.15am!)

One thing that I'm not sure about is why she is still waking at 4am. I've stopped giving her milk over night and now offer her some water. She drinks it all and is grumbling less and less after it (as what she really wants is milk) so she is getting more used to the water. I'll see what happens tonight but am just wondering why she is still waking for the water? Any advice? Maybe it's not been long enough for her to realise that she's not going to get any milk and is still asking!

She's done so, so well in adapting to the new regime and it's still early days with it ..thanks again!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Might just be a habit thing too, maybe try wake to sleep? Awesome that everything else is going well!

[Newbie mum]

I meant to post this weeks ago but time ran away with me..

A VERY BIG THANK YOU!!!! to all of you ladies with all of your support and suggestions. I've followed all that you said and I now have a dd who sleeps beautifully!! THANK YOU!!!!!! :-)

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Oh awesome update! So glad to read this xx