What if baby doesn't cry but awake after 45mins, what to do?

[newbie_momsie]

Hello!

I am new to the BW forum and read both of Tracey's book for infants. We started to teach our baby to sleep at 5 weeks old and she is now 4 months old. She is a great sleeper most of the time and she is usually pretty good at falling asleep And back to sleep. We always swaddle her awake in the crib and she goes to sleep on her own.

I have 2 issues:
1. My baby is pretty happy baby who doesn't cry. She babbles a lot though especially to let us know she is awake with loud squeals and yelps. Sometimes she wakes up after the first 1 hr of her sleep (she usually naps for 100-120 mins) and wont fall back to sleep. What should I do? We don't do pu/pd cuz she isnt crying. We end up rock and pat until she gets drowsy again since leaving her alone to fall back to sleep doesnt work in these rare occasions. But i really prefer to fall back to sleep on her own and not make this a habit/prop.


2. we are on a 3.5 hr routine usually to keep her 6 feeds at 100ml per feed. I cant see how 4 hr routine would work because my bb will lose a feeding from 6 to 5 and there is no way i can get bb to consume more than 100 ml if i have to increase the amount to cover the one missing feeding. Is it ok to stay on the 3.5 hr routine as the book scared me about bb having sleep issues if bb doesnt move to a 4 hr routine.

Looking forward to some help! Thanks so much!

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

Your DD sounds lovely, so happy.
It may be that she is in need of an A (activity) time increase. An UT (under tired) baby can wake at the 45 mark and be unable to self settle back to sleep even if they have successfully done so for a long time.
Could you post your EAS times so we can have a look at her routine?  Like this (post the actual times whatever they are, rather than what you hope for)
WU 7.00
E 7.00
A 1hr
S 8.00-8.45
E 9.45
A 1hr 30
S 10.15 - 11.00
...and so on through the day. Don't worry if the order is not EAS, it may be more like EASAEAS if she is short napping for example. That's fine.

WRT the 4hr routine. There are babies who cannot manage to move to a 4hr E at 4 months, Tracy mentions this in one of her books. It is possible to increase her A time and move towards a sleep pattern which looks like the 4hr routine but keeping E times more like 3 or 3.5 if that's what you need. The EASY may look a bit messy but it will suit your LO.  A LO would get sleep issues (from not moving to the 4hr EASY) if their A time was left too short rather than because they are eating at 3.5hrs.  We can help you work this out.
My own DS could not go beyond 3hr E until he was 6 months old when he took to solids in a big way and the solids naturally extended his milk E times without any reduction in how much milk he took across the day.

Hope this helps some. We'll have a look at your routine when you are ready to post it

[newbie_momsie]

Thanks so much for your quick reply! Truly appreciate it!

Our 3.5 hr routine looks like this:

E/WU  5:30AM
A  1.5 HRS
S  1.5-2HRS
E  9:00AM
A  1.5 HRS
S  1.5-2 HRS
E  12:30PM
A  1.5 HRS
S  2:00PM
E  4:00PM
A  1.5 HRS
S  5:30PM
E /BEDTIME  7:30PM
Dreamfeed  between 10-11PM

If we extend the A time 30 mins the routine will be 4 hrs and baby will lose a feeding. Her little tummy won't eat more to make up for tbe loss feeding. She will refuse the bottle If we try to get her to eat more. She eats 100 ml breast milk 6 times a day. She can't eat 120 ml 5 times a day. The extra 20 ml per feeding is too much for her.

I think she can do a longer A time but I dont want to reduce her feeding to 5 times a day since she cant consume more milk. This is my dilemma

Also, today she woke after 1 hr nap with an escalating whimper. These are rare occasions and pu/pd wpuld make her more upset. So I helped soothed her by holding, patting and rocking in tge chair until she was drowsy. I put her back in the crib and her eyes opened but she fell back to sleep on her own for almost 1 hr. Because she knows how to fall back to sleep that was the reason I held and soothed her. She just needed a bit of reassurance. This is ok right? I wouldnt turn into a prop because she usually falls asleep on her own, right?

[creations]

She just needed a bit of reassurance. This is ok right? I wouldnt turn into a prop because she usually falls asleep on her own, right?

This is wonderful
My LO has been able to self settle since under 10wks old but there are still many many times he has needed help just like you gave to your DD. Through illness, teething, developmental leaps, routine changes (like when an A time increase is needed), all sorts of things.  Responding to your baby's needs is exactly what BW is about   The great thing is that as soon as they can possibly return to independent sleep, they generally do on their own or with minimal help.

I'm not seeing the 45 mins or short naps on your EASY so it is difficult to suggest exactly where or how much of an A increase is needed, so some general guidance.  If A time increases from 1hr 30 to 1hr 45 and E stays at 3.5hrs then your day might look something like this:

WU 5.30
E 5.30
A 1hr 45
S 7.15 - 8.45/9.00
E 9.00
A 1hr 45
S 10.45 - 12.15/12.30
E 12.30
A 1hr 45
S 2.15 - 3.45/4.00
E 4.00
A 1hr 45
S 5.45 - 6.30
A BT routine/bath
E 7.00/7.30
BT 7.30
DF 10-11

Still 6 feeds.  Naps capped at 1hr30 - 1hr 45 rather than 2 hrs to maintain the routine, especially the 3.5hr E
You may also find there is a possibility of a cluster feed in the evening, for example E after the CN then again at BT (top up), this may be more the case if/when her A time needs another increase so you may be able to go for the 2hr nap.
As I said, my LO was on 3hr E until 6 months, it is possible.  Some people drop in a top up feed before a nap if needed (we didn't) as the A and S times extend with E staying shorter. This is actually quite common for an older baby when the routine is not really EAS anymore simply because of the times extending (fewer naps but more E times due to solids E and milk E times) and from 6 months (or older) many see the milk E times extend to 5hrs too.

The 1hr nap WU you describe sound UT to me, although she didn't wake at the sleep cycle transition she likely couldn't get into a deep sleep because she was no tired enough. If you increase the first A time by 15 mins (low key activity to delay the nap) you should see an improvement in a few days or so.  Some LOs like each A time to be a slightly different length. We could look again at your routine with the exact S times if you think this might be the case.

What do you think of the guidance routine?
Does it sound doable to you?

[newbie_momsie]

Thank you for your reply, creations!

I didn't indicate where the 45-60 min nap wakings are in the routine because it can happen during any of the S times. She only occasionally wakes up.

Yes! I can try to follow the EASY routine you suggested above. I can give it a try! It was a bit challenging to follow today because she woke at 5am and was already rubbing her eyes several times by 6am so I put her to sleep. She woke up after 2.5 hrs of napping. I fed her around 8:45am and after 1 hr she was rubbing her eyes a lot so I put her down at 9:55am and she napped for 1.5 hrs. Not sure why she is so tired today as last night she ate at 730pm, had a bath and was in her crib by 830pm.

I will work on activity time to be 1 hr 45 mins so long as she doesnt show sleepy cues. So hard to keep her nap time under 2 hrs as sometimes she wants to sleep more especially when she wakes up after 45-60 mins and whimpers so i go in to soothe her and she falls back to sleep. When she falls back to sleep she can sometimes sleep more than another hour! Should i wake her if she is still sleeping past the 1 hr 45 min mark or keep letting her sleep a little longer? I notice when I wake her before she is ready she will be kind of groggy and less alert during A time and show sleepy cues earlier.

Thanks sooooo much for your help. I am so grateful for it!

[newbie_momsie]

Sorry, one more question about your suggested EASY. How come you suggest Activity time at 6:30 pm and tgen Eat at 7pm? Why not let her nap until 7pm and then eat? Just wondering why she needs Activity time before she eats at 7pm.

Thanks for clarifying!

[creations]

If she's sleeping well with 1hr 30 A time then I would continue with that, it's just that you said she was waking at 45-60min which would indicate a slightly longer A time is needed. A times can increase quite rapidly at this point and the danger is that if you stay too short the naps get short and LO gets OT which can effect night sleep too.
You know her best though so with the information you have and knowing you can fit the feeds and the longer A time in you will be able to judge where to go from here.

Is 5 - 5.30am her usually WU time? It sounds like she hadn't finished her night sleep if she was tired again so quickly.  One cause of EW is the first nap coming too early which becomes a sort of extension of the night sleep. You might want to tackle this by teaching her to sleep later in the morning.  If she needs a feed at that time you can feed as you would a NF in dim light, no chat etc, straight back into bed and let her sleep until a more reasonable WU time.

Should i wake her if she is still sleeping past the 1 hr 45 min mark or keep letting her sleep a little longer?

It really is your call. You were concerned about fitting in her feeds so in that sense waking her is the only option. However I wouldn't have woken mine, a hungry baby will wake for food, they are pretty good at telling you they are hungry.  A tired baby will likely choose to continue to sleep a bit longer, even past a feed time, because they know they can get the food when they wake up.

How come you suggest Activity time at 6:30 pm and tgen Eat at 7pm? Why not let her nap until 7pm and then eat? Just wondering why she needs Activity time before she eats at 7pm.

The last nap is a CN, shorter than a full nap. It is intended to just tide LO over so they can make it through the bed time routine and have enough energy to take a feed and get through to BT without becoming OT.
If that nap continues to 7pm you either only have 30 mins before BT or BT moves later.  Her night is pretty short already, making it shorter could perpetuate the EW as LOs who are OT can EW.  My DS always did short nights but even then it was 10.5 - 11hrs, not only 10 which your LO is doing. That is a short night.
In other circumstances I might have suggested the 5.45pm nap becomes instead BT giving her a 12 hr night but you were asking for a routine which allowed for 5 day time feeds plus a DF so I didn't suggest this.

hope that helps. Do ask again if anything is unclear.

[newbie_momsie]

Hi creations!

Thank you for clarifying! You are so wonderful and helpful. I really appreciate your help SO MUCH!

For the entire month of April so far so wakes up by 530am every day. In March she was on a medication which required waking her in the middle of the night for it so her wake up time varied.

We bathe her every 3 days instead of every day because her skin is very dry. So we can definitely try to do other low key activities during A time before bed on non-bath days. So this means even though she is napping, I will need to go wake her up? Just for this particular A time before the 7pm feeding?

Thank you!

[newbie_momsie]

One more question,

This morning baby was put right back to sleep after 530am feeding. She will likely wake in 2 hrs so she will wake up before her next feeding. Should I just do A time until the next feeding and the rest of the day will be more like AEAS?

[creations]

Hi. I think these sample routines may help you to see what others have done at this age. There is a 3.5 and a 4hr EASY with 5 day feeds (not all of them have recorded the DF but that is the 6th feed).
chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

There's only an hour between the CN and BT anyway so I would imagine most of it is taken up with a top and tail (I also didn't bathe mine, he hated it), nappy change, pjs, snuggles,eating and wind down for sleep. The time just rushes by doesn't it.

As you have treated the 5.30 WU as a NF/NW then I would offer the the first E at morning WU. This lets her know that there is always going to be the offer of food at morning WU time. It is different as it is 'day' and the lights are on. She may not take a full feed, that's ok. If you continue with your EAS records/logs you may begin to see a pattern (or we can help) as to whether the 5.30 feed would be better as a smaller feed to encourage a full feed at WU (say 7.30am) or something else.  The day then will set out on an EAS routine as usual.
As she is waking later today you will need to alter the routine times to accommodate this.  I suggest writing it out so you know when to begin WD for nap.

Hope you have a nice day

[newbie_momsie]

Thank you again!

What does NF/NW and WD stand for?

From your suggestions I will try the following:

1. I can try A time before bed time to extend morning wake up time to 6am or later.

2. If that doesnt work and she still wakes up at 530am and not appear tired then I will treat 530am as the first E of the day.

3. If she shows sleepy cues soon after the feed at 530am  then I will put her back to sleep and offer smaller feed 2 hrs later when she wakes and start EAS as usual.

Great to have a plan! thank you!

[creations]

NF = night feed
NW = night wake (same thing really but a NW isn't always a feed)
WD = wind down for sleep

This may help you settle in
Site Acronyms/Abbreviations - What they are, and what they mean.
It's in the 'welcome please visit here first' section if you need to find it again at a later date

[newbie_momsie]

Thank you!

I will check out the link you gave me!

[creations]

No problem
Always feel free to post, whatever your question, there will always be a response to help you out even if it's just to find the acronyms/abbreviations link again

[newbie_momsie]

Hi Creations,

Today DD woke up after napping for 1 hr but wasn't crying. She was wide awake and had 30 mins left in her S time. I left her in her crib until it is the next E time. What should I do as I know you said to extend A time so she won't be under tired, however she rubbed her eyes a few time after being awake for 1 hr 30 mins and probably couldn't make it to staying awake for the total 1 hr 45mins so I put her to nap. Then she woke up 1 hr later but not crying.

Should I had still extended her A time despite seeing sleepy cues?

TIA!

[creations]

There are different thoughts on this.
Often people reduce the A time following a short nap to avoid OT
however
Reducing the A time can produce another UT nap, so the cycle repeats, and by the end of the day LO gets OT because of the missed sleep at each nap.

Tracy Hogg gave examples in her books of getting LO on a routine where by she kept LO in their room until the end of nap time even if they are awake (as you did), followed by a *full* (or close to full) A time, counted from when the nap *should have ended* rather than when it did end. This makes a monstrous long A time, at the end of which baby is really tired and likely to sleep, if they wake during the nap with OT Tracy would be there to put them back to sleep.
This is a faster method to get into a suitable routine (usually within 3 days) but we often go more slowly than this on the forums because it can be super hard work for parents. Often the slower way can still produce good, quick results, but you still need to be pretty consistent and very mindful of extending those A times, yk?

Based on what you've said I would keep her up the full A time following the short nap. You can try 2 versions of this
1. time the A from when she wakes at the short nap (if she sleeps 1hr time from WU 1hr 45 until next nap)
2. time the A from when she should have woken, when you got her up (if she sleep 1hr, lays in bed quietly another 30/45 mins then you get her up time from here - note this makes the time awake much longer 30/45 mins + A of 1hr 45 = 2hr 15 and this is what Tracy did in her examples).

Tracy also woke LOs when the routine showed the WU/E time even if they had had a disturbed sleep, wouldn't go down or OT wake ups etc, even if they had not fully rested. This again encouraged the routine into place quickly even if it did make LO tired and cranky. In effect it is following a set pattern for a number of days. You still listen to LO's needs and cues but in a more strict manner during that time. Once the routine is in place it is much easier to follow cues, allow shorter A time if you know LO had lots of stimulation that morning etc.

One more thing. At this age LO is more alert and learning about the world around her. Sleepy cues can be confusing, a yawn can now indicate she is bored of her activity and would like to do something else or that she is in the habit of going for a nap at this time. Switch the toy she is holding, read a book, sing a nursery rhyme or move to a different room or view point and see how she perks up. I think you will begin to see a subtle difference between a bored yawn and a "I really need to sleep now" yawn.  When extending naps, even if the sleepy cues are there, some times we need to go by the clock a little to help LO stretch the A time and start to get better overall sleep.

Today DD woke up after napping for 1 hr but wasn't crying

If she had her full A time prior to this nap then tomorrow I would increase first A by 10 mins and sneak into her room at 50 mins to W2S.

hth
let us know how it goes

[newbie_momsie]

Hi Creations!

DD is now waking up after 1hr-1 hr 40 mins after 2 hr activity. So far this week I have been trying 2 hr A time from when she woke up early from nap but this isnt going well as the routine is no longer on track. We started 4 hr EASY now. 4 feeds and a dreamfeed so 5 feeds in total.

This week she has been waking up around 6:15am instead of 530am. So the routine is 6:15am to 6:15pm and in bed by 7pm.

Today routine so far:

Wake up 6:15am
Eat by 630am
Nap at 8:15am
Woke early at 9:40am. No crying from her. Let her stay in bed untill 10:10am.
Eat at 10:15am
Nap at 11:45am
Woke early at 1:20pm. No crying
Right now letting her lie in bed until 2pm for next feed.

I feel like the intervals between feeds are getting shorter but i extend them by letting her stay in bed.

I am thinking of trying extending A time on top of her waking up early like the 2nd option you mentioned. So if she wakes 30 mins early from nap and no crying then let her lie in bed and then add another 2 hr A time do total of 2.5 hr A time to keep to the routine. I know this is very long A time. Plan to try for 3 days. thoughts?

thanks!

[creations]

Sounds good.
Although the A time from when she wakes until when she sleeps may appear long there is an additional 30 mins or so where she is 'resting' if not sleepign, it is a very low key activity as she is still in bed for that time. So, yes I would do as you've decided and see how things pan out over the coming days

I think your LO is close to 5 months now, so A time would be (as guidance) 2hr to 2hr 30 but some LOs like a very long A time, longer than the age 'average' and by increasing the A you are takign into acount her individual needs which is just what EASY is about.
It looks like the previous increase in A helped her sleep longer whic is good news

Let us know how it goes.

[newbie_momsie]

Since my last msg to you I kept her up for 2.5 hrs A time at 4pm and she napped until 6pm for her last feed before dreamfeed at 1030pm. But she woke up crying at 6pm. Sometimes she she would nap and wake up early and crying. Almost like she was in pain or scared about something. An escalated cry too. Have you heard other moms experiencing this too? Makes me wonder what is bothering my DD  
we pick her up and hold her to calm her. Sometimes we can put her down to fall back to sleep. Most times she is inconsolable and pu/pd doesn't work. She keeps crying. Do i keep up pu/pd despite her crying even though she knows how to fall back to sleep on her own but can't seem to because she is so wind up?

[newbie_momsie]

Another question...

DD last nap is either 4-6pm then feed at 6pm and in bed by 630pm or nap is 430pm-630pm and 630pm feed then in bed by 7pm. Usually she eats dinner and go right to bed after diaper change. Is this wind down routine too short since it is only 30 min? Is her bedtime too early? We only do 30 mins feed and activity in total because the BW book usually shows eat at 7pm and in bed by 730pm so only 30 mins. Not much "A" time after dinner feed indicated in the EASY examples in the book.

[creations]

Sometimes she she would nap and wake up early and crying. Almost like she was in pain or scared about something. An escalated cry too. Have you heard other moms experiencing this too? Makes me wonder what is bothering my DD

Are these crying wake ups just since increasing the A time and for naps only or night time too?
Can you post a full day EAS times please indicating where the crying is? If you can note the time of the crying if it is mid nap that will help too. Thanks.

Last A time is might be a full A time if it follows a full nap and LO likes a full A to bed. If the last nap becomes a CN (of 45 min) rather htan a full nap then the A time following is often shorter, the CN just allowing LO to rest eough to make it through a feed, btah and WD for sleep.  If I look at your full day of EAS times it will likely be easier to see what that last A time looks like.

[newbie_momsie]

Hi creations

Not sure if i should post this as a new topic under sleep section...

DD is waking up at 530am again. Definitely not hunger or growth spurt cuz she doesn't finish a full feed or just refuses to drink. I really think it is habitual wakung so I tried W2S this morning. I set my alarm clock for 430am but saw on the baby monitor she was already moving while being asleep like kicking feet and turning head. Do i wait until she is done all her moving and stops and then do W2S? Am i suppose to do W2S when she is in a deep sleep cuz I did that. Waited until 5am for all the moving to stop and then do W2S. I stroke her chest and nudge a little but she didnt stir so i stroke her face and she twiched and i stop and left.  Not sure tomorrow if i should try going in 1.5 hr earlier instead of 1 hr to try again. Or do i try 5am again for W2S like today? Thoughts?

Oh crap....6am...she just let out a big cry
Thx!

[creations]

It could be a little OT before BT, that can cause an EW where LO is still tired but wakes up around the 5am ish time.
Yes for W2S you would need to wait until she properly asleep, no point kick starting another sleep cycle if she is already in transition. what you saw at 4.3o might have been a normal transition rather than her actually waking for the day, so yes 5am or 5.15 for W2S if she is sleeping then (this should move the 5.30 WU to nearer 6am at least, that's one cycle only but she might transition again on her own to WU closer to 7am). Although I had great success with W2S for dropping naps I could not get it right for EW and my DS woke an hour earlier each night before I could get to do W2S.  it is worth continuing to try though.

For now I would try reducingthe last A time so it is a bit shorter than you have been doing the last few days.

When you have time have a look at my previous post and try to post a full day EASY. You don't need to start a new thread, you will get the same support here, if you feel you would like some additional eyes on your thread I can ask for other mods to take a look for you (i used to be a sleep mod, chances are you'll get the same suggestions from another sleep mod but there's always a chance I missed somethign, no harm in more eyes if that's what you'd like).

[newbie_momsie]

EASY has been different everyday lately

DD was awake for only 2 hrs this morning for A time frim 745am to 945am and was very cranky so i put her to sleep and she fell asleep right away. After 1 hr nap so woke up. She wines but doesnt cry. She couldnt go back for a longer nap. I dont know how to help nap longer anymore. i even tried holding her till she is drowsy but she doesnt stay drowsy enough to go back to sleep. What can I do to extend her nap? I cant do longer A time cuz she was so tired.

[creations]

She can't go back to sleep if she is not tired enough.
She may  need a change of scene or a different activity to help her get through a longer A time. At this age babies are becoming more and more alert and interested in learning about the world around them, yawns can mean boredom rather than needing a nap and going to sleep early can result in UT short nap and a grumpy baby (they are not always happy after an UT nap).

It would help to see a full day EAS times.

[newbie_momsie]

If she is UT why would she be so cranky and cry before i put her down for naps? i wonder if she is going through the 4 month sleep regression this month? She was a very good napper before and usually goes to sleep quietly by herself once we swaddle her.

Her EASY today which wasnt like this every day cuz everyday looks a bit different:

 5:00am Early wake. Fed her at 540am since she didnt fall back to sleep on her own and put right back to sleep at 6am)
745am woke up and lay in crib
8:15am Eat
Activity 745am-940am. I count lying in bed awake as activity time
9:40 am Sleep
1040am woke early from nap so laid in crib awake
11:45am Eat
Activity from 1040am to 1:10pm
1:10pm Sleep
240pm woke early and laid in crib awake
3:00pm Eat
Activity from 240pm to 520pm
520pm Sleep
630pm woke up
645pm Eat
745 bedtime
1000pm dreamfeed

Most of the naps today she needed to be held until drowsy to sleep which we normally do not do! We usually just swaddle her awake with white noise on and she falls asleep on her own. She was crying and fussy and cranky right when i lay her in her crib Fir nap time. Also, today she would cry once she woke up from her short nap. Is she going through a regression period? Sigh...feeling helpless and confused.

[creations]

UT babies can be cranky due to boredom. She is more alert at this age and her fussiness may be an indication she would like to change toy or environment for more activity time doing something different rather than being tired. it can be a confusing signal as LOs can yawn with boredom and we take it that they are tired and put them to bed.
She may also fuss or resist that nap (for example you have to hold her to get her to sleep) due to being UT.  My DS was just the same. Fussing or even crying before a nap and I assumed this must mean he was very tired (OT) but he was trying to tell me he was not yet ready for a nap.

I would increase the first A time to 2hrs 30. As you are doing 2hrs right now I would increase to 2hr 15 for 3 days then increase to 2hr 30 and let her settle into the routine.

Activity from 1040am to 1:10pm
1:10pm Sleep
240pm woke early and laid in crib awake

here she has a 2hr 30 A time and appears to sleep from 1.10 to 2.40 is that right? So a 1hr 30 nap?

[newbie_momsie]

Yes that is right that she slept from 1:10pm to 2:40pm. But she was also awake from 2:40pm to 5:20pm and that is 2 hrs and 40 mins activity time but she only nap for 1 hr 15 mins. I would think she would nap longer since she was up longer.

Okay I will give 2 hr 15 min a go and see. My husband wants to try 2.5 hrs though because he feels that she is almost 5 months and should be awake longer so I feel like I want to do what you suggest but I also need to try his suggestion to as he often feels that I don't trust his suggestions

Thank you! Will keep you posted on how it goes after the weekend.

[creations]

Yes that is right that she slept from 1:10pm to 2:40pm

OK well this is a great nap. A full 1.5hr is nothing to worry about at all, you need to be happy with this   it is no longer a 45 min nap hey
You put in your EASY that she woke early and lay in crib, after a 1.5hr nap I would not leave her resting in the crib I would get her up and allow her A time to be stimulating.  If some of her A time is spent resting in the crib this could leave her US (under stimulated) which is kind of the same as UT (under tired).  The A time prior to this nap was 2hr 30 which is great.

I wouldn't concern yourself too much with the last nap. Her A time was a little longer but she spent some of it laying resting in her crib, so it is very hard to work out, plus the last nap often become a CN anyway as it is in the run up to BT and just intended to tide them over so they don't have a super long A to bed.  If she'd slept longer there you'd start running into BT, you need enough time before BT for her to get tired.

Okay I will give 2 hr 15 min a go and see. My husband wants to try 2.5 hrs though

Just go straight for the 2hr 30 in the morning, first A time, she is handling it the rest of the day and she is resting for some of it anyway. Trust your DH, I think he is on the right track

[newbie_momsie]

So DD slept better for her naps past few days. About 1 hr 45 min to 2 hrs but her activity time were more like 2 hrs and she would rub her eyes a lot by then. There are still 1 nap that is 60 min but I guess some days she just wasnt tired enough to sleep longer.

Past few days DD is also having a hard time falling asleep at bedtime. Hubby had to hold her to help her fall asleep We usually don't do this.

Her last nap is about 1.5 hr long and I wake her to do activity time for 30 min...then feed her...she is up for 1.5 hr of A time so her bedtime is 730pm.

4pm last nap of the day
530pm activity time
600pm feed and activity time
730pm bed time

She would toss and turn and whimper a little for awhile (up to 1 hr!) and bursts of cries but not sobbing or wailing type. I dont know how to help her. Firm hand on her chest or stroking her head doesnt work. Tried PU/PD but she isnt wailing so i dont know if this technique applies to her scenario.

Could she be over or under tired?

[creations]

Sounds UT for BT. It may help to just move BT 15 mins later.
Could you give the full day EAS please?

[newbie_momsie]

May 25 EASY

420AM Woke up but fell back to sleep on her own by 520am and slept until i woke her at 7am.

700am Eat

850am nap. Told MIL in to put DD to bed at 9am but she felt that DD was tired and showed sleepy cues. Dd woke early at 1010am so I started Activity time after 20 mins later since she didnt fall back to sleep.

1030am activity time

1100am Eat

1030-1215 activity

1215pm Sleep. She napped for 1 hr 45 min

215pm Eat

405pm Nap. I woke her after 1 hr 30 min nap otherwise she probably sleep until her 6pm feed. We used to let her sleep 2 hrs and then feed dinner and put her back to sleep which worked well. Now that we changed it and gave her longer A time she is more fussy and harder to fall asleep on her own.

600pm Eat

530pm to 700pm activity

700pm bed but took until 815pm to get her to fall asleep. She tried so hard to fall asleep by herself but couldnt so she got cranky and gave little bursts of cries so DH ended up holding her to help her fall asleep. Is that ok? hope this wont become a prop Since most of the time she falls asleep on her own.

Thanks!!!

[creations]

Yes UT for BT.

There are a few options here.
- When you get a day like this, UT first nap so not really long enough, followed by 2 good naps, the day is going to get longer, give 2hr A before BT (making 7.30pm), still get her up at 7am the next day.  It's just pointless fighting BT with her if she is not tired.
or
- Work out from BT backwards if you want BT to preserve a 7pm BT. She needs 2hrs, so you must wake her from her last nap at 5pm and no later regardless of what time she began the nap or how her naps have been that day.

Longer term (rather than a one-off) you need to be making a decision about which nap will be a CN.  Usually it is the last nap, so 2 good 1.5-2hr naps plus a CN (30-45 min) is standard.  It is ok to adapt this though and go for the first nap as a CN instead followed by two good length naps. OR you have 3 long naps and shorten the night (I don't really advise this as nights seem to be going reasonably well but moving BT later is certainly an option and for some LOs they can't do a 12hr night anyway).  But you do need to choose one of these, there will not be enough time in the day for three long naps plus the length of her A times plus a 12hr night.
The A time running up to the CN can be a little shorter (it does need to be long enough for her to agree to go to sleep) whether this is the first nap or the last nap.  You may also find that after a CN she will accept a shorter A time before BT for instance:

WU 7
A 2hr
S 9-11
A 2hr
S 1-3
A 1hr 45
CN 4.45-5.15
A 1hr 45
BT 7.00

That's just a guide as to how you day might look. She's napping well now so it's just a case of tweaking the routine a little and you'll get into the rhythm of it.

DH ended up holding her to help her fall asleep. Is that ok? hope this wont become a prop

No problem at all. I'm sure in the future you'll find yourself (or DH) holding her quite a lot through painful teething or illnesses etc. The great thing about independent sleepers is they generally let you know when they need help (because they know they get it) and stop needing it just as soon as they can, or with very little encouragement. Don't worry about this holding but do listen to what she's telling you, 'not tired enough Mummy and Daddy'.

You've done brilliantly

[newbie_momsie]

Thanks so much!

Your suggestions on cat naps are very helpful!

I will give them a try! 2 long naps and 1 CN. Just hoping she no longer take 60 min naps! I guess every day as parents we have to adjust and tweak EASY.

Thanks for all your help and support!!! Means so much to have an expert on EASY to help me get through these tough times.

A heartfelt thanks!!!

[creations]

Not an expert, just a mummy who has been there and done that and now doing my bit to pay it forward to support other mummies
Before you know it you will be paying it forward too and sharing your experience with other mummies

Keep an eye on her A times, although we follow baby's cues it's also helpful to have one eye on the clock, if she's fussing and it's nowhere near E or S time then opt for a different activity or change of scene instead.  This link is helpful as a guide
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
And as a general rule of thumb if naps shorten again add another 15 mins to her A time (apart from where you want a 45 min CN).

How about you see how it goes and post with an update in a week or so? (but sooner if you need help!)

A heartfelt thanks!!!

You are very welcome

[newbie_momsie]

Thank you for the A time link! Yes, sounds good. I will see how another week goes. If her naps get short again I will add 15 mins. Many thanks! This forum is so helpful and thank you for volunteering your time to help so many of us new moms! I am so grateful!

[creations]

You're very welcome

[newbie_momsie]

Is it normal that DD wakes around 4-5am and babbles like she is wide awake for an hour then falls back to sleep by herself? She would sleep until I wake her up which is 7am.

She has done this a couple of times this week.

[creations]

It's absolutely fine.  Tracy mentions these babbling night wakings in the BW books and warns us not to go rushing in there because baby will, in all likelihood, self settle eventually, if we rush in we could disturb that natural process and begin a habit/prop of helping to resettling NWs where they weren't not previously needed.  Babbling NWs can be a sign of developmental leaps and she's just working through all her lovely experiences she's had in the day.

That said... if NWs continue more than a few days or if they are not merry babbling but instead 'I need you crying', you may want to look at the overall routine again and see if something is bothering her or if she needs a little tweak in times.
As this particular thread has been 'answered' (because the 45 min WUs appear to be pretty much resolved) I would suggest a new thread on the NW board if you are concerned.

[newbie_momsie]

 Thank you! Ok, will see how the next week goes with the naps and NWs. If it continues I will post a new thread for NW. Thx!

[creations]

No problem at all

[newbie_momsie]

Hi creations,

Looks like DD waking' again at 45 min mark. She is doing 2 hrs 50 min A time currently,  should I increase her A time by 10 mins? she is 6.5 months old now.

TIA!

[becj86]

Sounds like a good idea. Might help with the early AM wake and babble, too.