8 months - NW

[my_tribe]

LO just turned 8 months old and has recently begun waking up In the middle of the night for the past week, some where between 2 and 3 am. She been fussy and it's hard to get her back to sleep and takes an hour or so if not more Naps have also been rocky the last couple days.

She was sleeping through the night and napping so well. Our Easy was consistent and looked like this give or take 30mins...

7 wake nurse, solids
10 nap
12 wake nurse solids
3 nap
4:30 wake nurse solids
7:30 or 7:45 nurse
Bed by 8 
Dreamfeed at 10:30 (the last few week she starting to drop this and not want to nurse so sometime dream feed sometimes not)

What do the awake times need adjusting? Any suggestion would be so helpful!

[Kellyjs]

Hi there. Yep, it's sounding like a bump in A time is on the cards for you hun. Those NW's sound very much like UT cot parties 

Around this time, some LO's need quite an A time boost as the near the 2-1 in a couple of months. So things start to change quite rapidly. I might also consider capping both naps to 1.5hrs if you can. That might help keep the day the same length. Considering she's still taking good naps perhaps just add 15mins onto both the A times, naps capped at 1.5hrs, so something like this...

Wu 7
Nap 1 10.15-11.45
Nap 2 3-4.30 (as before)
BT 8 (as before)

Wdyt? Is it doable with family life? I think this may be a good place to start, hold for a few days and see what happens x

[my_tribe]

Thank you Kelly! I think that will work fine for us... Although I am sad to see the 2 hour nap go;) We are going to start today and see how it goes. I'll Keep you updated!

[Kellyjs]

I know, it sucks when that happens! Just look forward to the 2-1.. After they're through it the nice long nap comes back  . Let me know how it goes and/or pop back if you need to x

[my_tribe]

Hi there mamas
Over a week has gone by since we made the adjustment LO's nap and awake time and things just seem to had been getting worse with the night wakings. She has been waking up crying every hour or two starting from 12:30am if not earlier. Some  nights she will instantly fall back asleep in our arms when we pick her up other nights like last night she will just lay there awake for a couple of hours but if we put her down she's inconsolable until we pick her up. Lady night we were just so exhausted that we laid her in bed with us at 3:30am and she slept fine until I woke her up a little after 7am. Where do we go from here?

[Kellyjs]

So sorry it's not getting any better hun. That does sounds like teething. Anything you can see? Have you tried medicating to see if it helps? How's your day looking now? Sorry for all the questions 

[my_tribe]

No it's totally fine! Thank you so much for your help!
The days have been ok she hasn't been fussy and pretty much herself. Although yesterday afternoon her nap wasn't good. LO woke up at 40mins and then needed help to resettle then slept for a little bit but then woke up 30mins early and was up till 4. It was super hard to get her down for bed and she wasn't asleep until almost 9am. She was then up 6 or 7 times throughout the night until 6:30am. We have tried giving medicine before bed but it hasn't seemed to help:(

[Kellyjs]

Do you think she might have been slightly OT hun? Could you post your day in easy format and let's see if we can tweak things a little for you again x

[my_tribe]

Our days have looked something like this...although it's been changing every day.
WU 7
Nap 10:15
Wake 11:45
Nap 3
Wake 4:30
Bed by 8

The 2nd nap has been hit or miss. Bedtime was a nightmare and she was up crying 5+ times a night.

Last night we had some victory though!!! LO slept through the nigh!!!! this was our easy it was a little different cause we were traveling a couple hours to grandmas house but it worked...

WU 6:30 (woke her up early because we have to leave)
Nap 9:30 (fell asleep at 8:30 in the car)
Wake 11:45
Nap at 3:00 (fell asleep at 3:10ish)
Wake 4:30 (woke her up)
Tryed bed at 7:30 but she wouldn't go down her eyes would flutter but she wouldn't nod off. So lastnight i decided to let her play a little longer...
At 8:40 she fell asleep easily
DF at 10:30
Fussed at 3ih for a min or two and then went right back to sleep on her own!!
She started stirring at 6:30 this morning but has lying in her crib quiet for 20mins.

What do you think? How can we adjust it? Bed at 8:30 is pretty late right?

[Kellyjs]

It is a long day, but that can work for some if the naps are good. I think it is showing that she's needing a little less sleep overall iykwim?

How about we look at pushing the A times so your day gets a little longer? Or else we could look at capping one of those naps now. Which would you prefer and would work best with family life? For me, an 8.30pm BT is far too late, but that's because I'm normally gagging for a glass of wine by then  x

[my_tribe]

I'm with you sister 8:30pm is a long day for sure! By that time my feet are up and I'm enjoying a glas of wine and dark chocolate!
What would it look like to stretch out the A times a little more? I don't think that she ready to fully drop down to one nap yet but I'm open to moving in that direction for sure bed at 7:30-8 is ideal for us.

[Kellyjs]

Good to know we're on the same page 

Ok, the wine-friendly version would look something like this..

Wu 7
Nap 1 10.30-12
Nap 2 3.30-4.30 (capped)
BT 7.15/7.30

BT might need some playing around with as some can do a longer A last thing than others. Signs to watch out for are OT NW's in the early part of the night. If this happens we might need to reduce the last A a little and/or bump up the other A times. Remember though, we can just give this a try for a few days. Around now the A times start to increase rapidly and the routine starts to change with it so we might not be able to keep this routine for too long xx

[my_tribe]

So it's been a few days now... But we've had a bit of a crazy extended weekend. we road tripped to my inlaws house so things haven't been as consistent as usual.
Here's what the last few days have looked like... 

Sunday 
(Didn't fall asleep till 9pm the night before but then STTN)
7WU
Fell asleep in the car around 9am for about 15mins. we didn't realize until we arrived.
Nap #1: 11-12:15 late and short because of car catnat nap 
Nap #2: 3:30-4:30 
BT 8pm 
DF 10:30 
Woke at 1:30 was wide awake until 3:30am. 

Monday
7:00 WU
Nap #1: 10:15-11:45 
Nap #2: 4-5pm LO was super fussy from 3-4pm with her first ever diaper rash:( 
BT and asleep at 8:40 bc of late nap
DF 10:30
STTN

Tuesday 
7:00 WU
Nap #1: 10:30-12
Nap #2: 3:30 - 4:30 
BT 7:50 
We were traveling home LO was ready for bed by 7:30 but it just didn't happen till 7:50
DF 10:30
NW at 2:40pm - 4:30am 

So as you can see things have been a bit messy around here. Yesterday,Tuesday was the first day WT was extended to the full 3:30mins. The days before she was DONE at 3:15mins. Yesterday she could handle it but was  sleepy and fell asleep right away at 3:30min mark.  I was thinking maybe I would try the new EASY one more day and see how it goes tonight but from the last few days it's looking like we are going to need to make some more changes. What do you think? 

[Kellyjs]

Yep, so far I think it's showing she's had a drop in sleep needs overall. Obviously it will depend when you get home as extra stimulation etc probably threw a spanner in the works 

The best day you had was on the Monday. That's with the later BT. I'll disregard the first day as there was an extra nap that happened there.

So what we can do is either cut that second nap back or try and stick with Mondays routine for a few days whilst you're home and see if it works? How is she during these long NW's if I may ask? Is she playing around or really upset? Sometimes whatever your answer is not a great indicator though. My DD hand lomg NW's which I presumed were OT at the time as she was so upset, but I'm thinking she was just very miffed at being awake during the night!! Once we bumped her A time drastically and cut down the second nap, it did all get back to normal.. But as I said previously, I'm a fan of an earlier BT than a much later one!! X

[my_tribe]

During the night wakings she is either really active or she she just lays in our arms. If we leave her in her crib or put her back in she cries and cries and is so upset. For an example Sunday night/early Monday morning she was crawling around like someone had gave her a redbull. Last night after she woke up at 2:40am at first she just fussed a little but than began really crying and need help resettling. My husband went in and helped her settle but she woke up 5-10mins later fussed for about 10mins the really began to cry. I went in and lo laid still in my arms but with her eyeswide open. Everytime I went to lay her back in the crib she would get so up set. Eventually I was so to exhausted I laid with her in bed with us and she eventually fell asleep around 4:30am. So from 2:40 - 4:30 am she was pretty calm.

How far back do you think I should cut the pm nap?

[Kellyjs]

Hmm I think that does sound like UT NW's unless you feel there's any teething going on?

I'd cut the nap back to 45mins to start with. I would also try and push that first A a little too, perhaps by 15mins? Xx

[my_tribe]

Here where we're at now... I tryed cutting her 2nd nap to 45mins with 3:30min wake times during the day and things got really messy. It became almost impossible to get her down for bed and the wakings started happening in the early evening continuing all throughout the night. I'm having such a hard time finding her sweet spot in the middle of under tired and over tired. I feel lost on where to go from here...

Right now LO is taking her 2nd nap.. I'm not even sure how long to let her nap for or when to put her to bed tonight. It's been hard reading her ques.

So far this is what today has looked like..
7 WU
10:30 - 12pm nap
3:30 nap

[Kellyjs]

What A time have you been going to BT hun with the shorter nap? I'm thinking that might need to be tweaked slightly?

We did 2.5hrs to BT but that's because DD liked a shorter A to bed x

[my_tribe]

Unfortunately I'm back again... Nothing has changed. The night wakings are still happening. I just can't seem to figure out what schedule my little one needs. I tried going back to the last thing that worked with the later nights but it hasn't seemed to make a difference. I really don't know what to try.
Do you think it's time to start pick up put down? ... I'm dreading it.

[Kellyjs]

Mind posting the last few days for me hun and we can see what's going on?

He does sleep independently usually doesn't he? Any teeth you can see? Remind me...How do you settle the NW's now?

Pu/pd varies now as you use your voice a lot more and don't really pu. I'll post a link for you to have a read through x

How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

[my_tribe]

Our easy has been changing often. This last week I tried to go back to the last thing that worked for a couple of days.. the longer days and late bed time.
It was something like this…
WU 7
Nap 1: 2 hour nap, 3h 15 min after waking, normally around 10:15
Nap 2: 1.5 hour nap, 3h 15 min, normally around 3:15
BT: 4hours later, 8:45pm

It defiantly didn’t work. We had long wake times in the middle of the night normally starting from 2:30 or 3:30 for a couple hours.

I also tried sticking with easy for awhile..
WU 7
Nap 1: 10:30 - 12pm
Nap 2: 3:30-4:30 OR 4pm-5pm
BT: 8:00 OR 8:30
NW: normally on and off from 3:30 on

Yesterday
WU 7am
Nap 1: 10:45-12:45 (I’ve normally been capping the am nap at 1.5 hours but yesterday LO just would wake up until the two hour mark)
Nap 2: 4:45 - 5:15 (Since she had a long nap I capped the 2nd nap to about 30mins so she wouldn’t be under tired in MOTN)
BT: 8:15 (didn’t fall asleep till 8:30)
NW: 4:30 ( 30 mins or so)
WU 6:45am

I don’t see any teeth yet but I wouldn’t be surprised if she isn’t working on them she been chewy of everything. She does sleep independently we always put her down for naps and BT in her crib. We normally take her to her room and cuddle for a few mins, sing a song or two and then when she’s almost asleep we lay her down. If she stirs we will rub her back. She normally falls asleep just fine. At BT I nurse her one last time right before bed. She doesn’t fall asleep while nursing and then I try to lay her down before she’s completely asleep. Since all the night waking have happened she becoming quite dependent on us holding her until she falls completely asleep at BT and through the night. When the NW's happen the only way thats worked to get her back to sleep is to hold her. Sometimes she will go back to sleep quickly and other times she will just lay awake still in our arms. If we lay he down when she is awake she cries right away and it’s very upset, sitting and standing up. Often when we go to put her down when she’s fallen asleep in our arms she will wake up right away again, sit or stand up and begin to cry. Sometimes we’re stuck in this cycle for a couple hours. Honestly we’ve just been so exhausted the last few weeks that some nights we’ve ended up putting her in bed with us, laying on of our chest.

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply hun, I did read your message yesterday and have been racking my brains ever since.

I do wonder if you've created a prop there wrt the holding to sleep? Please, I'm really not berating you in any way...we do what we have to to get through these NW's don't we? 

I'm going to try and get some more eyes on this for you hun, as I'm at a loss. Your DT sleep looks good. The day does get a bit long when the longer nap is in place but she did so well with that before. It is obvious that the 2 longer naps are causing longer NW's in the later part of the night so definitely could signal UT.

You've done absolutely everything I would do in this situation. Am I right in thinking the NW's are better and less drawn out with the easy we set before? (The middle version). Xx

[creations]

Hi there
Just stopping by with a bit of moral support and another perspective.

So, this age is prime for developmental leaps and for those there is often little we can do other than jump on the roller coaster and hang on for dear life!  Understanding more language is a possibility but more likely I'm thinking physical skills such as pulling to standing, maybe cruising?  Unfortunately some LOs are really prone to disturbed sleep with developmental leaps.  Do you notice any new skills or skills she is working on like these?

WRT routine. I haven't read your whole thread in detail but here's an idea. Rather than extending the second A time before the CN, pull it back a bit so she is less tired for that nap, capping is easier and she is less likely to build up OT later in the day. The shorter A time plus shorter nap could help to bring BT earlier.
So, your day might look something like:
WU 7
A 3hr 45
nap 10.45 - 12.45 2hr
A 3hr ish
CN 3.45 - 4.15 30min
A 3hr ish
BT 7.15/7.30
(or BT up to 8pm if she has always done a shorter night. Mine only ever did 10.5 to 11hr night so aiming for 12hrs is not always appropriate, but neither do you want this BT getting any later really. If BT needs to be later I would look at how much A she needs before BT to help her go down relatively easily rather than having a fight on your hands)

So - have a think. It's not a set routine, just an example of a slightly different approach. See how you feel about it based on knowing her moods etc and if you think she'd agree to a nap at that time and so on.

[Martini~]

Hi Honey. My idea is also UT. She is working on long days and 2.5h of day sleep. I would try totally different routine with short morning nap and loong second nap later in the day with long A till BT. Even after and 1h she seems to need at least 3.5h of A and she is not a fun of short nap in the afternoon from what I see.
So capping morning nap but letting sleep up to 2h in the afternoon:
10:00 - 30min max
1:30 up to 2h
WU 7am, BT 8pm.

What do you think?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I'm not great at the routine stuff for this age as I went cold turkey 2-1 with my kids...but the prop thing caught my attention. Hopefully tweaking the routine will help some with that, but tbh it sounds like you have always held her until almost asleep and stayed in the room until she is totally out? Is that something you want to continue doing? Sorry if this sounds harsh but not sure I would really consider her an independent sleeper really if that is how she is put down for naps and bed (nothing wrong with it if it works for you, but then in cases like the long nw's it is all you have to fall back on and it becomes an ingrained prop).

[anna*]

^^ I'm agreeing that this may well be a prop issue.

[my_tribe]

Hi there mamas,

Thank you so much for a your help and input. I'm so thankful for this community and your support! Don't worry, I'm not offended at all! I've been saying to my husband that I think we really messed up and created a sleep prop. It never effected her negatively before and she could completely fall asleep on her own when she would wake up.  I guess now all thats changed and we're back to square one with sleep training:( Any suggestions of where to start now with her being 9 months now?

As for the schedule I'll give you a quick update from yesterday:
WU: 7
Nap: 10:30-11:50 (she woke up early, she wouldn't settle herself so I got her up)
Nap: 3:30 - 4
Bed: 7 (asleep at 7:15)
Woke at the 45 min mark and then once in the short middle of the night. Need help resettling for both.
WU: 6:50

I could try the the flipped around schedule and have the longer nap in the afternoons but I think I will try the other option first. Just so its not so much change for her. She has always seemed to like a long morning nap. I have almost always had to wake her up from this nap. Sometimes she would sleep 2.5 hours if I let her. I'm am open to trying though!

Again thank you so so much!

[anna*]

Both my kids ended up having prop issues at night only. My daughter, we had to make sure we put her in bed awake. Wide awake, not drowsy, not head resting on shoulder, properly awake. The bad news is, sleep training isn't easy at this age they seem particularly aggravated by PUPD so with mine I just sat with them and reassured them while they screamed at me   It's all do-able though, a few rough nights, nd I always felt much better knowing we had a plan.

[Kellyjs]

So the NW's were better then hun? We're they a quick resettle this time? Think OT by BT might be at play there with the 30mins CN. Could perhaps bring that back to pd at BT at 2hrs 45mins in that instance? Wdyt?

Perhaps we could cap that first nap to 1.5 hrs to start off with? Then 45mins CN and then the 2hrs 45mins to BT? Mine too couldn't do the longer pm nap   .

I'll let the others weigh in about the sleep prop, mine was completely resistant to apop. I would have done it though to get through NW's if she had let me!! What I do know is, whatever you decide to do to resettle rather than bringing her into your bed or holding back to sleep, is to be consistent and don't give in. At this age they do learn that if they scream long enough and you give in that that's what they have to do to get you to do it again. Just remember you can do it, especially if she's been an IS before, it'll just take a little resilience on your part. Good luck hun xx