Shush pat help

[Domestic Engineer]

I see what you wrote, even with the formatting. No worries. If you want to quote multiple sections of the same post with your comments in between, you have to click "quote" multiple times.

A 2.5 hour nap is probably too long at her age and I wouldn't form that habit. I would generally wake her after 2 hours. It's likely that she's catching up from lost sleep on the previous naps, but it's especially bad for the late nap, which should eventually become a cat nap, to be so long.

I hope that by going in to shush her you can extend the earlier naps and the last one will naturally be shorter. Fingers crossed that it works!

You should try not to feed her early unless she's hungry, but to some extent there's nothing else you can do with short naps. If she wakes after 45 minutes and doesn't seem hungry, I would wait 30-40 minutes to feed her. Assuming she can finish a feed in about 20 minutes, that would still give her at least 15-20 of A time before the next nap.

Putting her down after an hour is likely causing her to be UT like creations said. It would seem like short nap should mean short A time, but it actually often takes them just as long to get sleepy enough again. Maybe 5-10 minutes early for nap, but not 20. And if you do put her down early and see that she's not falling asleep right away, you can always get her up, sit for a few minutes and try again a bit later.

[creations]

It's likely that she's catching up from lost sleep on the previous naps, but it's especially bad for the late nap, which should eventually become a cat nap, to be so long.

I hope that by going in to shush her you can extend the earlier naps and the last one will naturally be shorter.

Just giving another perspective on this.  I do agree that the last nap being longer is likely that she is eventually tried enough to sleep longer and is catching up on missed sleep from the other shorter naps. However, I do not think that the last nap of the day being long is necessarily a bad thing.
The beauty of EASY is that it is adaptable to an individual's needs.  If your baby sleeps well in the afternoon I see no harm in this at all. It can easily be the first or second nap of the day (rather than the last nap) that is given as a CN and eventually dropped.
Some mum and baby groups run in the mornings and you might actually find you are able to get out and about more if you are not constantly worried about staying home for a long 2hr morning nap (ie a CN in the stroller on the way to a group may be just the ticket!).  Some mums have the school run to fit in, or other non-movables, which may throw adaptations into the EASY routine. It's fine.  Personally, I had an immovable thing in the early afternoon so we did long morning nap followed by CN on the way to appointment, A time at appointment and CN on the way home.  Much further down the line it was the middle nap (CN) which was dropped rather than the last nap of the day.

It's been a couple of week since you began this thread, I would imagine your LO is now close to 10wks old and you could be looking at more of a 1hr 20 A time (some LOs need more than this after their long night sleep).  Extending the first A time and using W2S may help in getting a longer nap there.

[hkrmom]

I think I spoke too soon about things improving.  Today was a rough one with  a couple of 30 minute naps and no long nap.  We haven't really had a 30 minute nap problem before.  Wonder if I keeping her up too long to try to fix the 45 min? I don't think I can take another day like today because she just cried and cried but wouldn't go back to sleep. Poor thing is so tired and won't sleep! I even tried putting her in a he moby wrap just to get one good nap from her and even that didn't work. Could this be the case? Her a times today weren't any longer than normal though but I think 3 30 minute naps really caught up.  How should A time be adjusted when this happens?

[Domestic Engineer]

Is it possible that she's hitting a growth spurt? Or getting sick?

If mine got desperately OT like that, I would try going for a walk the wrap, or the stroller, or whatever it takes to get her to sleep a bit more. Especially if she's crying inconsolably because she's so tired. Or let her nurse to sleep. None of these things are good habits, but some days you do what you have to do!

30 minute naps do usually mean OT. So it could be that she actually does need shorter A time, or that she slept badly last night for some reason. After the first short nap, that could make her OT for the next nap, no matter how long or short the A time. This all sounds very frustrating for you! How do you think she slept last night? How long was her first A time of the day?

Definitely try for early bedtime tonight if you can't get her to nap again, and hope tomorrow is a better day.

Have you looked at this thread?
What are A times and how do they fit into the EASY plan?

[hkrmom]

Hi there, I didn't see all of these posts!  She is just 11 weeks now and I've been increasing her A time to 1 hr 20.  She is usually ready for a nap after 1 hr or 1 hr 5, especially first thing in the morning.  Should I keep her up even she is yawning, etc? Should I increase for all A times?  Still no success getting a long first nap, and she fluctuates between having no long naps in a day and having a 2,5 or longer single nap.  That has usually been enough to get her through the day with a bunch of short naps and she almost never sleeps longer than 30 mins by the end of the day so bedtime is usually fussy. 

I haven't been able to get any nap extensions to work beyond those where I hold her arms through the jolts.   She doesn't seem to like to be shushed back to sleep.  I have tried getting her up for 10 minutes and going back to it, but not successful.  So I end up getting her up and then holding out as long as possible until the next nap. She just gets cranky pretty quickly The nap extensions were great, but I don't find that I can spend so much time in the room with her with my 3 yo here also do just trying to find a way to get her some sleep and may use the moby if by nap 3 she still hasn't slept more than 45 mins.  Will that be okay since she'll be going on 3 months next week?

Not sure about the growth spurt - she has been eating a lot so it's possible.  She was born tiny so I usually give her a bottle after bfing to make sure she gets enough.  She has just this week increased the amount she takes....

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If you and she were happy with the first nap being short and a much  longer nap later in the day I'd say leave things as they are, I dont' see a problem inthe routine being a bit different so long as she's rested, yk? However it sounds like she isn't fully rested so your routineprobably does need a tweak somewhere.
Would you post a full day EAS times for us to look at please?

If you want to work on that first nap I would increase the A time to 1hr 15 minimum and to a HTTJ (holding through the jolts) for the first nap.  If possible hold her arms and legs down firmly whilst she is still in the cot without lifting up as the lifting may disturb her more.
The rest of the day I would use a 1hr 20 A time as guidance, if she long naps great, if she's fussy and you need to use the sling then fine too, it's understandable you need to care for your older child too

[Domestic Engineer]

Do you swaddle? Maybe a better swaddle technique would help with the jolting awake? Or maybe you can figure out how to time it so that you can be in the room for a short time to extend the nap?

[hkrmom]

By the end of the day, she is really cranky so I'd love to get her one more good nap, or if I can get her to nap better late in the day (she usually only takes a 30 minute nap or so, sometimes shorter after 3 PM).  I included our routine from today.  She actually took a long first nap today and woke up for the day a little earlier than she has been.  She's been getting up around 7 typically, but she slept through the night last night without waking (!), so wondering if that's why she got up a little earlier than normal.

W - 6:20
E - 6:25
S - 7:30 - 10:15
E - 10:20
S - 11:45 - 12:40
E - 1
S - 2:00 - 2:50
E - 3:30
S - 4:15 - 5:00 (in baby bjorn)
E - 5:45
S - 6:40

[creations]

Wow, long morning nap!

I think I would have extended the A time after than long nap. I think you did intend to increase it as you gave 1hr 30 rather than 1hr 20, but it was perhaps still not enough. How about trying 1hr 45 after a good nap and 1hr 30 after a short nap and see how it pans out?
I would be cautious to put her down too early for the first nap, it's tempting to say use a shorter A there because it got you a great nap but the danger is she begins to wake earlier and earlier in the day. You may not need to 'do' anything right now but just keep it in mind.

Sorry, I forgot if you had something in the day you needed to work around for naps. I know you have another LO to care for, but are there any parts in the day where a longer nap wouldn't be possible due to toddler groups or nursery pick up etc? We would need to keep those in mind too. Not much point trying to extend the second nap if you cannot offer more than a CN at that time yk?

[hkrmom]

Thank you! I'll try to keep her up longer this morning - she woke up at 6:10 and I don't want that to get any earlier, especially when I go back to work in a few weeks. 

The only real time we have commitments is when we pick us DS from school.  I typically use that time for a walk in the carrier and a cat nap because she doesn't usually nap well late in the day. 

If I push out her bed time a little, will she wake up s little later? I'm not sure how I'd do that since she's so fussy then, but just thinking ahead to my return to work!

[creations]

It's hard to say about moving BT later. Babies can wake earlier in the morning due to a bit of OT from the day before, either due to not having enough nap time (and yesterday she had short naps all day after the lovely long morning one so was perhaps not well rested by BT) or just from the last A of the day being over long (and yesterday she had 1hr 40 before BT which is the longest A of the day) if it is either of these then a later BT won't help but only make things worse. However, yes it can also be because they have finished sleeping and just ready to get up, in which case a later BT can help. And just to confuse matters more earlier waking can be due to the first nap coming too soon in the day, in effect they self regulate by waking earlier knowing a nap is coming shortly.
Sorry it is not cut and dry with a simple answer to that.

If it comes to it, as you get closer to going back to work, you might want to try pushing the whole routine on regardless of what is causing her to wake earlier... lets hope you have a stable routine before then
Rather than just pushing BT later I would look at increasing the A times before the short naps so that the extra time is spread across the day, and (FX) some of it is taken up with napping.

I think I'd aim for something like this although bare in mind your LO isn't reading the thread and may not go along with it
WU 7.00
A 1hr 45
S 8.45 - 10.45
A 1hr 45
S 12.30 - 2.30
A 1hr 45
S 4.15 - 5.00 CN
A 1hr 30
BT 6.30/45

BT and WU don't work out exactly right there but its a rough guide. Is school pick up around 3 ish? If so she could be up from a nap in time for that...or she may short nap on nap 2 and do another CN during pick up in the carrier.
What do you think?

[hkrmom]

This would be amazing! I would love to have just three naps a day

I tried pushing her to 1 hr 45 minute A yesterday after a 2.5 hour nap in the morning and she ended up sleeping only 30 minutes, and then the next nap only 30 minutes too so I put her in the moby wrap to get a good nap before the end of the day.  She ended up being pretty well rested and took a CN until 5:15 so went to bed easily and happily and slept all night until 7 this morning.  But I'm  thinking 1 hr 45 may be a little too long for her right now?  I've been trying to push her to stay awake longer first thing in the morning (she seems to get tired pretty quickly), and am now at about 1 hour 25 minutes A time for the last two days and she's been taking a long 1st nap.  I've been trying to also push to 1 hr and 30 minutes more consistently after that, but she just gets so fussy before we hit that time and I'm so nervous about OT that I think I end up putting her down early.

I'll continue to push on the A time today...how do I know if it is too much for her? Is it based on the immediate outcome of the next nap (like yesterday's 30 minute nap?) or the accumulation of a couple of days and should keep pushing even if getting 30 minute naps?

[creations]

she just gets so fussy before we hit that time and I'm so nervous about OT that I think I end up putting her down early.

I know what you mean, when they are clearly asking for bed but you want/need them to stay awake a bit longer. Tracy advised a fan dance if that's any help
UT naps were always more of a problem here, and for many of the sleep threads I've supported, in general people tend to fear OT more but for me it's UT that causes more of a problem (and eventually leads to OT because LO doesn't sleep long enough for the nap).

how do I know if it is too much for her? Is it based on the immediate outcome of the next nap (like yesterday's 30 minute nap?) or the accumulation of a couple of days and should keep pushing even if getting 30 minute naps?

Sometimes, if you are lucky you get an immediate positive response like a long nap, but after a few days it might shorten again which can indicate another increase is needed now they have got used to the slightly longer A.  Or an immediate response may be an OT nap (short) but with more chance to re-settle (or W2S).
Either way it takes at least a few days to settle into a new routine so yes it is an accumulation and just time to get used to it.

We tend to increase A time in small increments to allow LO to settle into into and to avoid OT where possible but the danger is in going too slow, continuing to have short naps and becoming OT as a result of that instead.
FWIW Tracy shows examples in the BW books of increasing A time by 30 mins which we very rarely suggest here, usually 15 mins.

It's also worth keeping in mind LOs can learn a different habit for each nap. She may need some training to extend that first nap so she knows to sleep longer.  Maybe go in at 20 mins and begin a W2S to shush/pat her through if she is likely to wake at the 30 min mark. Once she transitions continue until she's in a deep sleep, this can take up to 20 mins after transition, you may be able to do this if your older child is at school at that time or you may feel secure to leave her before the full 20 mins is up (I managed some amazing W2S in just 2 mins, literally in and out of his room but the method does suggest 20).

Hows her mood overall?

[hkrmom]

Shes a reserved happy baby most of the time, but can need a lot of changes of scenery. It's hard for me to tell if she gets fussy because of tiredness or boredom.  She gives some signs that help, but after a short nap, I can never tell. She is usually crying when I get her out of the bed, but will start smiling when the lights go on and she's out of the swaddle.   But that doesn't last long and then she'll get fussy again.  Ahh, they are so complicated! 

On a positive note, she's continued to take a long first nap of the day!  but still only short naps after.  One of these days...

Thank you for all of your guidance and support! Makes this process so much better!

[creations]

Try not to be scared of OT.
If you look back over the thread from where it started there has been more success with longer A times than shorter. As Weaver pointed out, she was not tired for her nap.  I would just increase the A, what do you have to lose? She already short naps so there is going to be an OT build up anyway...with a longer A time and possibly a little help to transition she could increase her nap length and be better rested overall.