14 mo trouble self soothing after NW or EW

[KatrinaW]

Hi all

My 14 mo LO has been on one nap for a few weeks now. He seems to be napping fine 2.5-3hrs. We just moved him from our bedroom into a shared room with my oldest. The first night my oldest woke at 3am and woke him up..... Problem is - it takes him hours to fall back to sleep if he gets woken up. I usually have to hold him or give him a bottle and even then he stays awake for hours. Night 4 he cried when I tried to put him down for bed and I ended up rocking him to sleep in the living room. Tonight he did the same thing. I tried to get him to fall asleep in his crib and he will lay down if I sit beside it but he keeps moving and can't settle. I took him to the living room again, rocked him until drowsy and then set him down and continued rubbing his back until he fell asleep... Fast forward to 10:45pm (when my oldest fell out of his bed and made a loud noise) he woke up cring. It's now 12:05am and he is still wide awake. He cried in the crib so I sat in the room for 30 min, then I took him out to the living room and rocked him and not once did he close his eyes... I set him back down in his crib and he laid quietly for about 10 min and started crying again. I can't let him cry and wake up my oldest. I don't know how to get him to go back to sleep, he's always been like this. Also, every morning when he wakes up he cries. He can lay quietly for a couple minutes but that's his limit. It's hard being woken up to screaming every morning.... If he wakes early say 5am for whatever reason, he sometimes will fall back to sleep at 7am! I'm at a loss - help!

[creations]

Bumping this for you.
Sounds like he needs some sleep training so he can learn to self settle in his bed instead of this habit of being held and taken to the living room, but as I only have one child I don't have experience of ST in a shared room.
I'm sure there will be some helpful support coming your way soon.

Hang in there.

[anna*]

My two have always shared a room and have done plenty of sleep training with them both in the room. Is your oldest a light sleeper? There were so many times I was sure the little one crying would for sure wake her brother, but actually she rarely did and we went through several phases of sleep training. We bought the oldest a set of kids ear defenders (about £7 on eBay if I remember right) and if he did wake up he would put on his ear defenders and go back to sleep. On the one or two very rare occasions he was woken right up, I'd sent him to go and get into my bed, and transfer him back to his bed once the baby was back to sleep.

[KatrinaW]

Thanks for your replies ladies!

He normally falls asleep on his own with no issues. Nap time is always easy it's only bedtime that's an issue recently. I'm thinking he may actually not be tired enough at bedtime. Last night we tried bedtime at 7:30pm and he stood up and chatted then cried. I took him to the living room and tried later with the same result. I did the same thing again, took him out put him back to bed later and he fell right to sleep. Right now he's sleeping 2.5-3hrs during the day and our days are becoming too long. Yesterday:

WU 6:15am
Nap 12:30-3:15
BT 9:00pm

Should I cap the nap at 2hrs to get him in bed earlier and make his night a little longer?

[anna*]

Why do you take him out when he cries?

[KatrinaW]

He wakes up my oldest. My oldest has sensory issues and will not put anything in or on his ears. He's a pretty light sleeper so we can't transfer him without waking him up

[anna*]

I think there's not going to be any magic remedy if you can't do some sleep training with him

[KatrinaW]

He falls asleep for naps fine and only bedtime has been a struggle theis past week. When he has a NW or EW what method of sleep training would you suggest? I've tried sitting next to his crib and he lays there quietly for hours but doesn't fall asleep.

[anna*]

If he's awake for hours but not crying, I'd say that he doesn't really need you in there with him at all? He's going to bed very late, so quite likely overtired, so I would really go for a bedtime 12-13 hours (if he's had a long nap) after his wake up time.

[Buntybear]

Hi - I would say that his day looks quite long. Is his BT at 9 because he is not tired enough before then? If so I would cap the nap.

[KatrinaW]

If he's awake for hours but not crying, I'd say that he doesn't really need you in there with him at all?

He only lays quietly if I sit next to the crib as soon as I move he screams. The other night I got him to sleep 12hrs after WU by rocking him to sleep - that was also the same night he was awake from 10:45pm-3am. We've tried every night to have him in bed at a reasonable time and he just cries.

I would say that his day looks quite long. Is his BT at 9 because he is not tired enough before then? If so I would cap the nap.

His day is way too long. His bedtime is 9pm because its the only time I can set him in his crib without him screaming and he falls asleep on his own. What would you cap the nap at 2hrs?

[Buntybear]

With Olly I the time I woke him from his nap was more important than how long it was. Looking at the routine he had at around 14-16 months he was on a 2 hour nap but I would always wake him at by 2.30pm and then aim for a 7-7.30 bedtime.

I would probably cap at 2 hours and see how he goes. Olly was always worse to get to sleep when he was UT than OT and if he is settling for naps OK it sounds like you have the sweet spot for his first A time - it is the 2nd one you need to play with now.

[KatrinaW]

We capped yesterday at 2hrs so today looked like this:

Wu 8:10am (he went to bed at 9:30pm and woke from 2:20-2:50am)
Nap 12:45-2:45pm
BT 7:50pm

He went down for both nap and BT by himself, he protested for about 20 seconds and then went to sleep.... Problem is, he woke at 12:20am and stayed awake until 3am! Thoughts?

[Buntybear]

How was he at the NW? Is he getting any teeth?

[KatrinaW]

He woke up crying and I sat with him in his room in the dark and he chatted the rest of the time.

No teeth that I know of.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

I've been following and haven't posted because I'm not sure I have anything helpful to add but ((HUGS)). Is it possible that you could ST him in your room and then transfer him back with your other LO? DS was also on 1 nap at this age, and his routine was something like:

WU 6.30
Nap 12.30 to 2.30
BT 7.30.

I agree I would cap the nap at 2 hours.

Also, with your saying your oldest has sensory issues, is it possible your youngest does too? How was he doing whilst in your room, was he better? I may be clutching at straws, but I'm just trying to think outside the box :/.

Is there any big developmental leaps going on right now, with speech/movement etc? The NW that weren't screaming ones, were either UT or development related for us.

Also would your youngest tolerate white noise to try and stop them waking each other?

Vicki.x.

[Buntybear]

The NW that weren't screaming ones, were either UT or development related for us.

This is what I am thinking too.....

[KatrinaW]

I don't think he has sensory issues but I could be wrong. When he was in my bedroom he had occasional night wakings for hours and woke crying every morning. He went to bed fine though. He still goes down for his nap fine. He's already walking and says about 15 words already. He hates being in his crib so pretty much always screams if he has to be in there awake. They have a white noise machine in their room - always have. My oldest has been doing exceptionally well the last few nights and has been able to sleep through a lot of his talking/crying.

Today he was awake at 5:50am, nap at 11:30-1:30pm and still screamed at bedtime... even before I got to the bedroom door. I patted his back for a few minutes until he was quiet and then left the room. Its 8:30pm so he's been awake for 7hrs and he's laying in his crib chatting away.

[Truly Blessed]

He hates being in his crib so pretty much always screams if he has to be in there awake.

So is there a chance that this is a crib issue? Has it somehow become a negative space for him Hun? I wonder (if you're not already?)  if you could try spending some happy time in his new room when he is awake, including him playing in the crib when it isn't sleep time. Maybe try some different bedding, switching up comforters etc.

What happened for the rest of the night 

((HUGS))

Vicki.x.

[Buntybear]

I have a feeling this is developmental - what is your heart telling you? I am not sure there is much wrong with your routine TBH.

I would say take heart in the fact that you can leave him awake in his cot, many LOs can't or wont do that!

[KatrinaW]

He spends lots of time playing in that room but not in his crib specifically. If it would a crib issue wouldn't it be present for naps as well? I can try some play time in the crib (he does play a bit with my oldest in his crib). Should I be in the room too? He sleeps with a sleep sac, no blankets. It is a little warmer in that room as its south facing... thinking I may try a lighter sleep sac.

Last night he fell asleep at 8:45pm and woke this morning at 6am. Surely a 2hr nap and a 9hr15min night isn't enough sleep.

[KatrinaW]

I have a feeling this is developmental - what is your heart telling you? I am not sure there is much wrong with your routine TBH.

I would say take heart in the fact that you can leave him awake in his cot, many LOs can't or wont do that!

Im not sure, I keep second guessing myself. It just doesn't make sense to me that he would be doing this just at bedtime when naps are fine.

Normally he won't lay in the crib quietly so this was a bonus last night!

[Buntybear]

Last night he fell asleep at 8:45pm and woke this morning at 6am. Surely a 2hr nap and a 9hr15min night isn't enough sleep.

What are you thinking?? Longer nap?

[Truly Blessed]

It just doesn't make sense to me that he would be doing this just at bedtime when naps are fine.

I know what you mean, but having said that BT is always worse for most things, even teething pain which never makes any sense to me either, it just seems to have been the way for us.

I think maybe the way to go is to rule out OT first of all and see where that gets you. So maybe a longer nap of capping at 2.5 for a few days  Is it possible to put him down earlier and keep the same WU time do you think  I know it's the opposite to the way we were going  but if he would nap earlier, and then have the same afternoon A time, it may make a difference. Maybe:

WU 6.30

Nap 12.00 until 2.30

In cot by 7.30

I don't think we asked yet, has he been high/low or average sleep needs in the past would you say 

x.

[Buntybear]

Is it possible to put him down earlier and keep the same WU time do you think

Yes this is what I was kind of getting at earlier. I always kept the same nap WU time so always up by 2.30pm so Olly was still tired at BT. Hopefully if he is OK at naps you could sneak a bit of extra sleep in at the beginning of the nap?

[KatrinaW]

What are you thinking?? Longer nap?

Im thinking his night should be longer, at least 10hrs?

I think maybe the way to go is to rule out OT first of all and see where that gets you

We will try this.

I don't think we asked yet, has he been high/low or average sleep needs in the past would you say 

I'm going to go with low sleep needs??. That being said, as a baby he had sleep apnea and would only sleep 13-14hrs in a 24hr period. He has never slept longer than 14hrs (in a 24hr period).

Yes this is what I was kind of getting at earlier. I always kept the same nap WU time so always up by 2.30pm so Olly was still tired at BT. Hopefully if he is OK at naps you could sneak a bit of extra sleep in at the beginning of the nap?

Sounds like a plan. I think he may like the shorter morning A

[Truly Blessed]

What are you thinking?? Longer nap?
Im thinking his night should be longer, at least 10hrs?

I do too Hun, but I think if it is an OT issue, then it will be the longer nap initially that will enable the nights to lengthen, fingers crossed.

I don't think we asked yet, has he been high/low or average sleep needs in the past would you say 
I'm going to go with low sleep needs??. That being said, as a baby he had sleep apnea and would only sleep 13-14hrs in a 24hr period. He has never slept longer than 14hrs (in a 24hr period).

Tough call then really, this will likely be the time that you can get a clearer picture, here's hoping.

Yes this is what I was kind of getting at earlier. I always kept the same nap WU time so always up by 2.30pm so Olly was still tired at BT. Hopefully if he is OK at naps you could sneak a bit of extra sleep in at the beginning of the nap?
Sounds like a plan. I think he may like the shorter morning A

Good luck!

x.

[Buntybear]

OK yes - a longer night would be the ideal but I am wondering how if he is not falling asleep until late. I think that lengthening the nap will combat any OT that there may be causing the EW.

[KatrinaW]

We've made progress! Yesterday he had his 2.5hr nap and went to bed at 7:30pm no crying. He woke this morning at 6:45am. He had a nap from 12-2:30pm today but is struggling to fall asleep (mind you he is quietly laying in the crib) at 8pm. Also, my oldest is awake in the room - tips on keeping them both quite at bedtime??

[Truly Blessed]

Oh Hun, I'm so pleased to hear that. So right now it does seem that we may be looking at OT rather than UT. I think as long as he is lying quietly that is an improvement, for now YK  I have no experience with LO's in the same room. What age is your oldest?

I have just ordered a bed tent for DS as he has spent the last 3 nights sleeping in his tent in his room and loves it lol I wonder if it is something that may have the situation, giving your oldest a private den in his room. As you said he has sensory issues, it may also be something which is very comforting, just a thought Sorry, I don't know if your oldest LO is a boy or a girl  but here is what I have ordered for DS, also available in girls designs.

Hope today is a good one.x.

[KatrinaW]

It was short lived. Last night he woke at 12:30am screaming, but resettled. He then woke up at 5:25am screaming (which woke ds1 and of course he didn't go back to bed)... ds2 did finally fall back to sleep at 6am with some help. Nap was ok. He's screaming at bedtime again - and by screaming I mean at the top of his lungs before I even walk into the room with him. I took him back out to calm him down but he is just in an awful mood.

DS1 is very particular about having things in his room so Im not sure that would be an option

***update: it's 10:15pm and he's still screaming unless he's in the light. He screams at the top of his lungs in the dark, if I hold him, set him down, put him in his crib etc...

[Truly Blessed]

As those were screaming WU's are you thinking OT rather than UT  Have you checked the teeth situation lately Hun  Wondering if giving meds may be worth a try 

x.

[KatrinaW]

I would think that if they were UT he wouldn't have woke crying, no? He also did wake twice during his nap yesterday. I did give him meds last night at 8pm just in case. He finally fell asleep at 10:30pm and woke shortly after crying again.

[Truly Blessed]

I would think that if they were UT he wouldn't have woke crying, no?

Yes Hun, just checking you have come to the same conclusion instead of feeding you them I'll be back later, thinking on it.

x.

[anna*]

Apologies, I am sure I have asked this before - is he an independent sleeper?

[KatrinaW]

Apologies, I am sure I have asked this before - is he an independent sleeper?

Yes, he is. Has been putting himself to sleep since he was a few months old.

[KatrinaW]

I would think that if they were UT he wouldn't have woke crying, no?

Yes Hun, just checking you have come to the same conclusion instead of feeding you them I'll be back later, thinking on it.

x.

Thanks! I wonder if maybe the night before when he didn't settle until 8 may have messed with our good streak? Maybe he was getting a touch OT, causing the NW/EW? He was rubbing his eyes last night at 6:00pm when I was putting DS1 to bed and I can't help but think I should have tried BT then?

[becj86]

Hi,

Just wondering what you think about this being developmental? DS went through a stage where he became more aware of his dreams and they scared him witless - he did not want to go to sleep because often the same scary dream would start up again, hence the long waking when in reality, he is tired. Can be worth checking temperature - even slightly overheated kiddies have these more often. OT also makes it worse.

It really helped for us to talk through his day before bed. Basically I just talked through all the things he'd done in the day, mundane or exciting and it seemed to allow him to just settle any thoughts or feelings he might have had (without necessarily expressing them, particularly initially) and he tended to sleep better.

Do you darken the room for naps? Is it an issue with darkness? Often not an issue at this age per se but it can be a signal to him that scary dreams could be coming, if the dreams are happening more at night.

Definitely worth trying that earlier BT if he's looking tired, IMO.

[Buntybear]

He was rubbing his eyes last night at 6:00pm when I was putting DS1 to bed and I can't help but think I should have tried BT then?

Could have been the case if he woke in his nap too    It is hard at this age as when they change their sleep needs or have a 'phase' you can easily get into an OT/UT loop.

How did things go today?

[KatrinaW]

ust wondering what you think about this being developmental? DS went through a stage where he became more aware of his dreams and they scared him witless - he did not want to go to sleep because often the same scary dream would start up again, hence the long waking when in reality, he is tired. Can be worth checking temperature - even slightly overheated kiddies have these more often. OT also makes it worse.

How would you know if he was dreaming at this age? He doesn't have a temperature - checked.

Do you darken the room for naps? Is it an issue with darkness? Often not an issue at this age per se but it can be a signal to him that scary dreams could be coming, if the dreams are happening more at night.

Definitely worth trying that earlier BT if he's looking tired, IMO.

Yes, his room is dark for his nap we have two sets of blackout blinds on that window.
 

Last night he went to sleep at 9:30pm woke this morning at 7:30am, napped from 12:05-1:35pm (was woken by a loud noise and didn't resettle) we tried for an early bedtime...he screamed before I even made it to the door, same for regular bedtime and now its 8:20pm and he is in his crib quietly but did kind of protest for the first few minutes (but at least he was screeching!).

I'm going to look for the link but does anyone know off hand what the average A time is at this age? He's 14.5 Months.

[anna*]

A times really vary a lot at this age but I would say 4.5-5.5hrs

[Buntybear]

We have had (many) periods where Olly would LOATHE bed times. We still get them now . Last 2 nights (when DH has been in charge) he has ended up in our bed just to get him to sleep. I vividly remember at his 2 year regression him fighting when he was put in his cot. So much so we made a bed on the floor for him next to his cot  . Every time he has been like this it has been a phase and it has eventually ended.

Have you any APOPs to get him asleep earlier at BT? We wouldn't normally advocate them but in cases like this it help short term.

One thing I would say is that be thankful that he at least lies there in his cot on his own. Small mercies 

[KatrinaW]

Have you any APOPs to get him asleep earlier at BT? We wouldn't normally advocate them but in cases like this it help short term.

He doesn't close his eyes if I hold him/rock him. So I don't know how else I would get him to go to sleep. He won't lay quietly if I sit next to the crib anymore - he keeps putting his hands out.

One thing I would say is that be thankful that he at least lies there in his cot on his own. Small mercies 

True, however, having to put him to sleep and take him out of his crib multiple times a night because he is screaming is getting really frustrating.... 9/9:30pm bedtimes don't work for us - especially when he wakes at 6am still.

[Truly Blessed]

You know it's incredible how I forget details. Yesterday I spent ages trying to find my thread for DS regression when he would literally scream the house down going in his cot, like he had a very real fear of the cot itself, I remember it was truly awful and that I posted about it, but I can't remember exactly what age he was. I'll keep trying to find it.

((HUGS))

x.

[KatrinaW]

The last three nights bedtime has gone smoothly. He's only napped 2.5/1.5/1.5hrs and 10.5/10.5/11 hrs at night. Fingers crossed that whatever it was is over and gone! Now, to start a thread on my almost 4 year old for his 4:45/5am waking!

[Truly Blessed]

Great news Hun

Now, to start a thread on my almost 4 year old for his 4:45/5am waking!

I'll watch out for it 

x.

[Buntybear]

Great news. 

Olly did that at 4 but again - it was a phase!

[KatrinaW]

And we are back! The screaming continues...and it's now at some nap times. He stops shrieking if I stand next to the crib...but if I try to leave the room the shrieking continues. It's been a week now (minus yesterday).

Yesterday:
WU 7:05am
Nap 12:05-2:15
BT 8:15
*** he woke up several times in the night screaming and resettled himself
Today:
Wu 7:15am
Nap 12:40pm-1:35pm went to bed screaming and woke up screaming
BT ?? He's been whinny and rubbing his eyes for hours but won't take a nap nor will he stop screaming for BT

I don't understand this

[Haribo2012]

Hi hun sorry your still going through this, it's soul destroying when you just can't figure it out. If it's any consolation our worst sleep with DS was 14-17 months....BT messing, taking an age to fall asleep, having to sit cuddling or rubbing his back, NW that I couldn't work out so lots of sleeping on his floor. Can honestly say not sure what fixed it but it did stop, I'm sure it was a mix of SA, teeth and developmental.

I'd say your day looks pretty good 13 hr day and 2 hour nap was how our day looked at this age. Does walk in walk out calm him?

What time BT did you go for?xx