Author Topic: Early morning waking 10.5 month old  (Read 4394 times)

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Offline NinNic

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Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« on: May 07, 2015, 10:30:58 am »
Hi,

I'm back again with EW in morning and need some advice. LO has had flu some time back and started crawling so that affected sleep, but feel she is back to normal again since 2 weeks ago, as she was very tired during flu and after and also when learning to crawl. She is 10.5 months old.

Before she got flu she was on 12.5-13 hr day (WU around 6:30, BT around 19:00-19:30) with 2 naps; am for 1.5 hrs normally and CN im pm for about 25-30 mins in stroller or she won't fall asleep, am A time 4.5 hrs and pm A time 4 hrs. We are back with the same EASY after flu and crawling. For last 10 days she has been waking between 5:30-6 in morning, still turn on the lights at 6:30 to start the day if she starts crying earlier then a bit earlier than 6:30. I thought she might be OT so I put her to bed after 4 hr 15 mins A time in morning counting A from 6:30 for a few days of the 10 days, but that led to her waking around 5:30-5:40. I changed back to 4.5 hr A in morning from 6:30 and she sleeps until 6. Today she woke 5:45 after morning A of 4.5 hrs yesterday. It takes her a bit longer also to settle for am nap now than usual.

I also notice that when she goes over 13 hr day she will wake earlier in morning. Maybe that is normal if days are longer than 13 hrs?

Is it time to increase A time? In that case how much in am and pm? Do I keep CN? Really want to keep starting day at 6:30 or even 7 if possible. For some time now she is sleeping 11 hrs max or even a bit less, before she would sleep 11.5 hrs or even a bit more sometimes. Is this also sign of increasing A? Of course now that we have 13 hr days she will maybe naturally sleep for 11 hrs.

Please advice. Thank you!  :)

Last 4 days of EASY:

Sun:
WU 5:37  turned on lights 6:25
S 11:04-12:29
S 16:35-17:00
BT 19:12

Mon:
WU 5:58 turned on lights 6:30
S 10:51-12:18
S 16:25-16:50
BT 19:15

Tues:
WU 6 tunred on lights 6:30
S 10:46-12:20
S 16:15-16:45
BT 19:02

Wed:
WU 5:58 turned on lights 6:30
S 10:57-12:34
S 16:28-16.55
BT 19:23

Thu:
WU 5:45 turned on lights 6:22
S 11:00-12:29





Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2015, 13:26:41 pm »
Yes, it looks like you could be heading towards one nap to me :)

She could do with a bit more A before bed - that'd be my guess.  I'd count the morning A from WU, not lights on, in which case she's already getting around 5 hours then, which is actually what you'd need for one nap.  I wouldn't push that one any later for now.  How does she seem after that nap?  Is her mood OK?  Is she getting tired before her CN?  At some point we had to start a rule which said if Jack wasn't asleep for his CN by a certain time (I think it was 3.30 or 4ish), then he skipped it, and we did an EBT instead.  We had to AP his CN to get it that early, and if he didn't go for it we skipped it, otherwise it'd rob from his overnight sleep.  I'm wondering if you need something similar, but if she's tired for her CN it might be we need to play with that first A time too.

WRT 13hr days, that's normal for many.  In fact, at 11 months we were on 13.5 days cos I couldn't get nights any longer than 10.5  ::)  If longer days result in shorter nights, though, I'd take that as her max...  It may be you're stuck with that for a while until you're properly on one nap, and then her nights should lengthen again.



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2015, 14:23:07 pm »
Thanks for your quick reply! :)

Her mood is good after am nap. No, she usually does not get tired before CN. I mean its not like she is rubbing her eyes or crying because she is tired, she wants to play. Ive had to apop that nap for over 3 months as she wont sleep in her bed, only in stroller. I just tried to get her to sleep earlier for CN today as I just read your reply :). She fell asleep 16:00, which is after 3.5 hr A time. Should I try CN between 15-16 like you mentioned?

How would we play with first nap if she is tired for CN?

She is def much better off with 12 hr days.

What is your advice? :)

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 17:51:13 pm »
You could try moving her first nap a bit earlier if she was tired for her cn, to shift it earlier, but seeing as she's not especially tired, I'd stick with the morning nap where it is and try a pm catnap by 4ish for 20 minutes.  If she won't go for that, then I'd do EBT.  Does she tend to tack on if you do that?

What do you think?



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 19:20:00 pm »
Yes I agree with sticking to am nap where it is.

I'm very tempted to transition to 1 nap and EBT, but it might be too early for her. Also if she has less than 12 hr day, how would she sleep? I mean she won't sleep more than 12 hrs right? Then WU would be earlier and earlier if days are less than 12 hrs?

Would pm A time affect EW as am A time would? If I try CN around 16, which would mean less A time for her can that affect EW in morning?

Do you mean if she tend to tack on to CN?

I will def try what you suggested with CN around 16. Today she slept 16-16:25 and BT 19:10, which is 13.5 hr day.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 19:31:18 pm »
Generally you find with the 2-1 transition that you end up with a mix of 1 and 2 nap days for a while.  So you might do a 12hr day after 1 nap, then WU the next day doesn't allow for another one nap day with a decent bedtime, so both naps are shifted earlier and you get a slightly longer day. Then you get a decent WU again, and you end up with another 1 nap day etc, until you can reliably extend both A's to get a decent length night. It can often take weeks / months and it's often a bit messy I'm afraid  :-\

Too short an A time to bed can cause EWs, yes.  They certainly do here. We'll need to figure out what sort of A time she needs before bed after a short CN, but it can definitely be a factor.

Sorry, I meant does she tack onto her overnight sleep if you do an EBT?  I.e. If she goes to bed early and she's tired, does she sleep to her normal WU time, or does she just shift her night and wake earlier the next day?

Let me know how you get on. I'm away for a couple of days from tomorrow, so I may take a bit longer to reply, but actually it takes around 3 days to be able to see the impact of any routine change anyway, so hopefully that'll work out fine  :)



Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 19:33:17 pm »
Here is a very useful link for the 2-1 by the way X

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 19:44:52 pm »
I will try CN at 16 and see what happens for a few days.

So it is a bad idea to try to increase her pm A time from 4 hr to 4.5-5 hrs right now? She has been on 4 hr A time in pm for quite some time to be able to fit in CN.

Normally she sleeps CN and doesn't skip it, but then of course we have long days as we have now. Only time I have done EBT is when she has been very tired and then she has slept until normal WU time, but then she needs to be very tired I feel.

Thanks for link, I have from before. :)

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 21:42:49 pm »
I think you could definitely try and increase her second A time if you think she can handle it (I assume to just do one nap), but personally I'd allow some 2 nap days sometimes as well, to keep on top of OT. I guess I'd try the earlier CN first, to see if that has any impact,  and if not, then try a 1 nap day to see how that goes.



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 19:06:16 pm »
Hi,

I'm back again with an update on how things are going and need some advice.  :)

I've tried CN around 16 for a while now. I would say WU is around same time as before. She refused CN for 1 day and I would say she was fine didn't seem tired, maybe fell asleep a bit too late for BT, as she has had SA for a while now specially at BT so she has fallen asleep later. She woke a bit earlier, 5:40 next day.

For past 2 days she has slept much longer than she usually does for am nap around 2 hrs or more, usually she sleeps around 1.5 hrs. Should I cap this nap to 1.5 hrs to be able to fit CN so won't be too late or let her sleep until she wakes and then skip CN? A time in pm is only around 3 hrs ow, which might be too little maybe causing EW in morning. What do you think? I also don't want her to be OT with only 1 nap. How long should the 1 nap be when she is only having 1 nap per day, if she has normally been doing 1.5 hrs for her long nap in the past? I feel it takes her longer to get tired before BT with this longer am nap so day is even longer like today 13.5 hrs. It took her 45 mins to fall asleep today for BT, which is way too long for her. Usually it takes her 10-20 mins to fall asleep at BT, but for quite a while now it takes her around 30 mins to fall asleep even when she is calm and does not have SA.


Here are last 5 days of EASY:
Wed 13 May:
WU 6:09
S 11:03-12:37 woke her from nap
S 15:56-16:16
BT 18:56

Thu 14 May:
WU 5:55
S 10:56-12:20
S 15:54-16:16
BT 19:03

Fri 15 May:
WU 6:25
S 11:21-12:50
Refused to sleep CN
BT 18:51

Sat 16 May:
WU 5:40
S 10:54-12:49
S 16:00-16:20
BT 18:38

Sun 17 May:
WU 5:50
S 10:58-13:15
S 16:09-16:29
BT 19:15


Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2015, 07:17:01 am »
Just want to add, this morning she woke 6:27 so I'm confused! It's very rare she wakes that late nowadays.

Just also realised she is teething so maybe sleeping more cause of teething?

When she wakes around 6:30 should I put her to bed 11:30 for nap so she has 5 hr A time? Lunch will be quite late, but too early to have before nap.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 08:30:03 am by NinNic »

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2015, 19:35:01 pm »
Yes, teething could be making her more tired which might explain the longer naps and the lie in this morning.

To be honest her EASY looks quite good for the 2-1. It's a lot more messy for some  :)  Nights of 11hrs is pretty good - in fact that's a standard good night for us. The short night you got after 1 nap was probably cos her afternoon was too long, but that's unavoidable in the 2-1 and it looks like she's done a good job of catching up since.

If she's sleeping longer for her morning nap I'd let her,  and then skip the catnap - it's the direction she should be heading in. You might just need to keep an eye on her to make sure she's not getting too tired and maybe cap the morning nap so you can get a catnap in if so.

With regard to lie ins, morning A time and nap lengths,  she seems to be doing well on 5hrs A in the morning so I'd stick to that. Nap length can vary a lot  - 1.5 hrs was a long nap for my son, my daughter used to sleep 2.5 hrs if she was tired and my friend's little girl did 3hr naps til she was 4 and a half. I'd say 2 sleep cycles is the minimum for a good refreshing nap though - generally 1hr 20-30. Often people find that once their LO is properly on one nap, that starts to lengthen to 2hrs or more though.



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2015, 19:33:30 pm »
Thanks for your advice.  :)

This morning she woke 5:45 and slept am nap for 1 hr 45 mins so I decided to skip CN. I think I put her to bed a bit too late as she was rubbing her eyes a lot when I was changing her diaper. She was crying a lot and standing up many times in bed, I think OT and SA mixed. Finally she fell asleep 18:55.

I assume she shouldn't have more than 5 hrs A in pm as she is having in am right? I just find it a bit early to BF her before BT before 18:00, also to fit in lunch after her am nap, dinner and BF before BT. Do you think it's too early to BF before 18:00 for her to not get hungry until morning? Usually I BF 6:45-7 in morning.

How can I make her sleep longer in morning or is there really no point trying until she is on 1 nap? How do I do it then? Will a lot of LO´s sleep 12 hrs when on 1 nap or still 11 hrs? Would like her to wake around 7 if possible and BT 19/19:30. Do you think that would be possible?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 21:14:47 pm »
Yes, that would definitely be possible with many  LOs.  My daughter generally did 11.5 hr nights after the 2-1 - you might find you don't get to that point til she's properly on one nap though. Having said that, pushing her to get there will probably backfire  - it could take ages. I'll be honest - with Jack we had short nights all the way through the 2-1 and nothing I did seemed to help, but many do find a better way through it. Some LOs get through it more quickly and easily than others.

5hrs A time after a nap sounds like a good time to aim for to me. It does give quite a long stretch overnight between feeds but I think that's unavoidable, and at 10.5 months she should be getting her calories mostly from solids, so milk is more of a top up at this age.  I think that'll be fine.

I'm not sure what you can do to lengthen nights in the 2-1 to be honest, except try and keep a decent A til bed  (not offer a cn too late), play about with nap times a bit and keep an eye on OT building up.  How did she do at night after the one nap day?



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 11:17:19 am »
Thanks for your advice again!  :)

When you say keep a decent A til bed, after a 20 min CN how long roughly would that be? I feel that she needs around 2-2.5 hrs, if more I feel she gets OT as I tried about 3 hrs A time. Or do you mean to not get a too long day?

Well things didn't go too well as she was woke 1:35 crying for over 2 hrs, but think that was because she got a cold and nose was blocked. I woke her around 7 am next day. How should I go about if she has i.e. a cold but not fever with sleep and naps? Try to stick to usual EASY? She wasn't teething earlier so maybe she wasn't feeling well just before cold.

She can be very fussy in am, don't know what it is, if she is OT or something else, but it is very strange. Nowadays I take her out also in am and she is in better mood. She can rub her eyes around 9 am, but don't know if that is because she is tired. Find it hard to know always as she can be rubbing her eyes at anytime throughout the day.

On Saturday we were at family's place so she was supposed to sleep her am nap there in travel bed, but she was so worked up and playing in bed that we had to pat her in the end to fall asleep and then she woke after 25 mins and couldn't get her back to sleep. Should she have same A time as after a full nap before CN when sleeping for 25 mins? I put her down for CN earlier than usual as she was tired. I find it tricky to get her to bed earlier after CN as she usually needs same A time after CN usually to fall asleep even if she is OT. She was def OT after that day for a while. I have posted EASY days below. She has been going down fine for her CN in pram for past few days (maybe cause OT) and I've tried to do it a bit earlier to get her to bed earlier in evening so days are not too long as I notice she is more tired when not sleeping for at least 11 hrs and she tend not to sleep past 6 am.

Today she was playing in bed for over 30 mins, standing up all the time, I tried putting her down several times and then finally she fell asleep, A time 5.5 hrs. If she sleeps over 1.5 hrs should I skip CN or have it anyways as it might be late for CN?

We are travelling next weekend by car, it is a long trip. If she does not fall asleep in car or sleep long for her am nap what do I do then? We will be travelling the whole day and also when it is time for her BT, what is your advice? If she doesn't fall asleep in the car (we don't have a car so she has not been in a car that many times and when she has she hasn't been too happy about it) can I get her to fall asleep in pram and then put her in car seat? Just worried she won't sleep in car and be so OT.

When travelling and LO is on 1 nap per day, what is your advice if that 1 nap is not long enough or does not happen at all?

I really feel that it is def not worth pushing for 1 nap when LO is not ready as you advice. It just a roller coaster of OT and UT I feel, but she gets easily OT if not sleeping enough. I know you said if she sleeps am nap for 2 hrs I can skip CN, she has been sleeping 1 hr 45 mins do you advice to skip CN then also or stick with CN? It is a but tricky I feel, as days will then be too long for her with CN, but maybe OT if without CN. Maybe I should just wake her after 1.5 hrs to keep CN. What do you think?

Sat 23 May:
WU around 6
S 11:19-11:51 took 30 mins to settle in the end had to pat her
S 14:55-15:30 let her sleep a bit longer
BT 18:52

Sun 24 May:
WU 5:25
S 10:42-12:23
S 16:03-16:23
BT 19:13

Mon 25 May:
WU 5:25 might have fallen asleep until 6 but not too sure
S 10:37-11:58
BT 18:41

Tues 26 May:
WU 6:10
S 11:02-12:30
S 15:43-16:06
BT 18:42

Wed 27 May:
WU 6:06
S 11:36 took 40 mins to get to sleep, now 13:11 still sleeping

So many questions sorry! Thank you in advance!

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 08:19:52 am »
Hmmm...  If she's a bit crabby in the morning then another option is to do a short catnap at around 9ish, and then let her have her longer nap in the afternoon, which would then see her to bedtime more easily.  So something like:

WU: 5.30 - 6
Nap 1: Set at 9am for 30 minutes
Nap 2: Try 1pm set nap, uncapped.  Hopefully get at least 1.5hrs here.
BT: 7

Then if the second nap isn't long enough you can gradually shorten the first until she's ready to properly move to one nap. 
What do you think? 

With regards to your questions....

When you say keep a decent A til bed, after a 20 min CN how long roughly would that be? I feel that she needs around 2-2.5 hrs, if more I feel she gets OT as I tried about 3 hrs A time. Or do you mean to not get a too long day?

Yes, I meant not to have too long a day, really.  It looks like you're getting to the point where allowing a catnap and a decent A til bed makes the day too long.  The A after the cn can be whatever you feel is right for her, but if you're having to AP a cn at around 3.5hrs A after a decent first nap, then probably a final A of 2.5hrs is interfering with her night, even if she seems tired - this is more likely to be cos her day is getting long by that point rather than 3 hrs A being too long after a 30 minute nap.  Most LOs only shorten their A by around 20 minutes after a short nap.

How should I go about if she has i.e. a cold but not fever with sleep and naps? Try to stick to usual EASY?

Yes, if it's just a cold, I would, or maybe slightly shorten her usual A if she seems tired or is not sleeping well. 

Today she was playing in bed for over 30 mins, standing up all the time, I tried putting her down several times and then finally she fell asleep, A time 5.5 hrs. If she sleeps over 1.5 hrs should I skip CN or have it anyways as it might be late for CN?

If she does that again, I'd let her sleep completely uncapped and then do EBT rather than try and get a cn in.  Generally if a LO can handle 4.5 - 5 hrs A they're ready for one nap, so if she did 5.5 I'd defintely make that a one nap day.

We are travelling next weekend by car, it is a long trip. If she does not fall asleep in car or sleep long for her am nap what do I do then? We will be travelling the whole day and also when it is time for her BT, what is your advice? If she doesn't fall asleep in the car (we don't have a car so she has not been in a car that many times and when she has she hasn't been too happy about it) can I get her to fall asleep in pram and then put her in car seat?

When travelling and LO is on 1 nap per day, what is your advice if that 1 nap is not long enough or does not happen at all?

It's hard when you're travelling - you kind of have to accept that everything may go out of the window for a while and then concentrate on getting back on track when you're home.  I would try and get her in the car early to give her time to get used to it before she gets tired.  You might then find she falls asleep OK.  If it's getting really late and she's just not sleeping, could you plan a lunch or coffee break around a nap in the buggy for her?  If you think you'll get away with transfering her you could try that, though I would never have gotten away with that at 11 months.  My two weren't that massive on sleep though!  Otherwise I'd try and let her sleep as long as you can get away with in the buggy.  One thing to bear in mind is that she won't be getting much activity in the car seat, so if she doesn't nap much, some of it will be mitigated by the fact that she will be having a very quiet day!  She might have to get by on 2 cat naps that day, if that's the way it goes.  If she falls asleep late and then only cat naps, I'd try another one about 3 - 3.5hrs later.  it depends on how she does in the car and how much flexibility you have to stop I guess...


I know you said if she sleeps am nap for 2 hrs I can skip CN, she has been sleeping 1 hr 45 mins do you advice to skip CN then also or stick with CN? It is a but tricky I feel, as days will then be too long for her with CN, but maybe OT if without CN. Maybe I should just wake her after 1.5 hrs to keep CN. What do you think?

If you want to stick with the long am nap, I'd let her sleep uncapped at that one and just offer the cn at your normal time and let her use it to self regulate.  If she's tired, she'll take it, if she's not, she won't.  If you've capped the first nap and then she doesn't take the cn, she'll have a long time til bed :-\  The only exception to that might be if you think she's really tired overall and her long am nap falls  early in the day, in which case a 1.5hr nap and a catnap will probably help her get over OT better than one long nap and then a very long A til bed.  You might have to judge that a bit on the day - or switch to a short am / long pm nap and then only cap the long nap if it's getting too close to BT.  We switched it round towrds the end of the 2-1 for the same reason.

Hope that's all helpful!  :)





Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 11:20:11 am »
Thanks so much for your advice!  :)

Since yesterday this is what has happened:

Wed 27 May:
WU 6:06
S 11:36 took 40 mins to get to sleep, woke 13:30
BT put her to bed 17:59 as she seemed tired- was crying tired cries (usually doesn´t do that this much) fell asleep 18:18

Thu 28 May:
WU 6:18
S put her to bed 11:15, she was rubbing her eyes (but then again she does that throughout the day so I don't know which rub is the tired rubbing), she was again like yesterday standing up and playing around until 12, I tried putting her down several times but doesn't really help as she is back up again, she started tired crying and fell asleep 12:12

Is this a sign that she is maybe ready for 1 nap or developmental thing of wanting to stand up all the time (she has learnt to stand up for a while now so it's not that new to her). She had A of 6 hrs, which is way too long right?

I feel bad not going to her when she is tired crying, but if we do she just usually gets disturbed. Is it ok to not go in?

Should I put her down a bit later tomorrow morning aiming for more than 5 hrs A time in am and see if she stops playing in her bed? Usually she does not do this for her am nap, her am nap is usually the easiest as she goes down well for it.

Maybe it's worth keeping this long A in morning and not go for a CN around 9 am? Can babies rub their eyes if they are bored? As soon as I go out with her she is fine.

Would you still keep 1 nap if she sleeps 1.5 hrs and not more? Like today I will def not have a CN as she has fallen asleep so late anyways.

I don't know what to do with her lunch as it will be very late lunch when she falls asleep so late. I have BF her before her nap so I guess she will be ok, but it will be close to dinner at 5 pm. What do you think? Keep late lunch until she is properly on 1 nap and I know her times better and maybe skip snack between lunch and dinner?

Are children better nappers when they are older as you said at 11 months it was hard for your children, with regards to transferring into the car?




Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 21:43:47 pm »
Hmm.... To be honest, I'm not sure if she's needing more A time or OT now with that nap resistance.... Though it could be that she needs a bit more A time after some good nights. Weds, after that 2hr nap in the middle of the day it looks like she had a really good night, but 6hrs A is a lot at this age.  Having said that, my son was doing that from about 10 months and my daughter from about 13 / 14 months.  My son is very unusual in his sleep needs though :) I think it's worth trying 5hrs A to see if it helps, though. If it backfires, you can always do a catch up day the day after. I'm also wondering if she'd get on well with a early bedtime as it looks like she tacks on well.  I would definitely try a 6pm BT again on one nap days.

If she only sleeps 1.5hrs, I would offer a cn at the usual time, and if she doesn't take it, do an early BT again.

With the lunch thing - when my LOs were napping at 11.30ish I did a small lunch / large snack before the nap, and the same afterwards, until their nap moved to 12ish, when I did lunch at around 11.30.

On the tired crying  (sorry, I'm on my phone and can't quote), although BW doesn't advocate leaving your baby to cry if they need you, Tracy Hogg did say to leave them when they're doing a mantra  (or settling) cry. I used to listen for escalating cries, count to 10 or 20, check they were still escalating, and go in after that.  If they were tired cries and starting and stopping, or slowly calming down I would leave my two to settle. If you think she needs you though, you can always go in, reassure her,  and then go back out again.

Just thought - is she teething at the moment? Have you tried giving her meds half an hour before her nap? Just wondering whether that could be contributing to her not settling well?

Finally, in my experience, children do get less sensitive, sleep wise, as they get older. I don't know if that's just my two. If my daughter slept in the car as a baby we had to keep moving or she'd wake up  (even at traffic lights), and I couldn't ever transfer her, but now I could park the car, turn off the engine, open her door and talk to her and she'd stay asleep. I've transfered her at night a few times in the last 2-3 years too, without problems.

I'm away for a couple of days now and won't have wifi very often, so apologies if I go quiet for a bit.  I'll catch up with you when I'm back though :)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 07:57:22 am by LovelyLilyandJack »



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2015, 09:20:11 am »
Thanks for advice again.  :)

Things have been a bit messy since I last wrote. She is very OT and has been since those days she fell asleep after around 6 hrs A in am. I have posted her last days below. She is very tired in morning and grumpy so I have put her to bed earlier. I would like to continue with long nap in am and CN in pm as it suits us better. Is it ok to then put her to bed earlier when she is OT in am even if it´s 1 hour earlier like today? How do I go about if she only sleeps for 30 mins for her am nap and I can't get her back to sleep again, do I still do a CN or let her sleep longer? Yesterday I let her sleep 40 mins in pm as she was so tired, also slept earlier for CN as she slept earlier in am. I just find it hard to know how long pm nap should be to fit in BT, so that won't be too late. I have realised like you said that she sleeps much better when she gets to bed around 6 pm for BT. Just for past 2 days I did that but because of her SA it has been late anyways and she wakes earlier in morning also because of OT.

She has been having bad SA at BT for past 2 days where she just stands up and cries so much non stop. When my DH goes in to comfort her, every time he walks out she just cries even more. This goes on for 1 hour or more and of course she is exhausted and OT by then. Yesterday he opened her door so some light came into her room she then stopped crying and fell asleep after a while. Is this something that happens at this age? I guess they are so much more aware of their surroundings also when they can stand up in their bed to look around. Do you know if there is anything else we can do except going in comforting her and going out again. I have told DH to not sit in her room to calm her as she is standing up in bed and that this might become a prop, but instead to go in and comfort and go out and repeat. It's just that it goes on for so long until she calms down probably because she is exhausted.

I guess you meant try 6 hr A in am? How do I do a catch up day?  :) How long can she sleep for in a catch up day?

I don't think she is teething, I think those days it took her so long to fall asleep in am was because she was so exited about standing up in her bed as she was very happy.

Sounds great about them not being so sensitive about sleep. From around what age was that with your children?

We are going to a party where there is no possibility of her sleeping in a bed for BT only pram, how do I go about it? It won't be very late but might be difficult to get back home for her BT specially if it would be around 6 pm that day? Can I do a longer CN to make her last a but later for BT or any other better advice?


Fri 29 May:
WU 6:30
S 12:14-12:50 standing for a while then fell asleep sitting up (this has never happened before)
S 14:59-15:26
BT 18:10

Sat 30 May:
WU 5:18
S 10:47-11:19 patted her fell back to sleep 11:30-12:45 (tried longer A, which was too long)
S 15:54-16:14
BT put to bed 17:53 crying a lot because of SA finally fell asleep 18:58

Sun 31 May:
WU 5:20 tried to get her back to sleep didn’t work
S 9:36-10:58
S 14:54-15:33
BT put to bed 17:40 crying a lot because of SA finally fell asleep 19:00

Mon 1 June:
WU 5:43
S 9:42-10:41 woke for few mins fell asleep again 10:45-11:18

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2015, 17:16:15 pm »
Sorry to ehar she's getting OT, though not surprising after those long mornings I guess.  To answer your questions:

Is it ok to then put her to bed earlier when she is OT in am even if it´s 1 hour earlier like today?

I would definitely put her down earlier if she's OT.  The advice is usually to only pd 20-30 minutes earlier to avoid an UT nap, and thus preventing her from geting a restful nap and getting over the OT, but if she napped well on a much shorter A then that's fine too.

How do I go about if she only sleeps for 30 mins for her am nap and I can't get her back to sleep again, do I still do a CN or let her sleep longer?

If she only does a short morning nap, I'd shorten the next A by 20 - 30 minutes and then let her sleep uncapped for her next nap.

The SA might be because she's OT - the two can be related.  It can also be age related though, yes.  It's very common to start at this age and come and go for a while.  My daughter had it really nadly for a very long time...  I think what you're doing sounds just right :)  You can also try sitting with her but not making eye contact oif she's suffering from SA, and then gradually over a number of days moving closer to the door and finally reassuring from outside the door, though some LOs do better with the Walk In Walk out approach you're doing. 

How do I do a catch up day?  :) How long can she sleep for in a catch up day?

She probably just needs a day with shorter A times and at least one uncapped nap.  I always found with my daughter there was no such thing as too much sleep when she was OT at that age, and we'd get away with a lot of day sleep, but my LSN son needed watching a bit.  it looks like she did a good nap on Sunday after around 4hrs 15 A - I would aim for around that A time if she's OT, and maybe another short nap after around 4hours A depending on what you think she'll do, followed by an early night.  I found I had to keep the day to a maximum of 12.5 hours if I was needing to get over OT with my son - just doing shorter A times and longer naps wasn't enough in itself.  Your day on Sunday looked good for a catch up day - if she'd settled OK at bedtime! 

We are going to a party where there is no possibility of her sleeping in a bed for BT only pram, how do I go about it? It won't be very late but might be difficult to get back home for her BT specially if it would be around 6 pm that day? Can I do a longer CN to make her last a but later for BT or any other better advice?

I'd offer a longer CN too for a later BT :)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 17:17:54 pm by LovelyLilyandJack »



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 17:53:55 pm »
Thanks for your reply!  :)

She is still having SA at BT and fallen asleep late because of it. Today she woke at 5:20 am and fell asleep 7:28 pm, which is a long day. When she sleeps 10.5 hrs is that indicator of OT? Today she slept 1.5 hrs for am nap and I wanted her to sleep a bit longer for CN, but she has woken from CN after about 30 mins today and yesterday. Should I still do CN for 20 mins in order to get her to bed? Just that when she has SA it takes long for her to settle she might be even more OT with a 20 min CN? A bit tricky to fight OT when having SA.

If she wakes from her CN, which she usually does when not really tired, is there anything else I can do when putting her to bed later i.e. when at a party?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2015, 18:37:06 pm »
If she's waking from her CN early cos she's not really tired and then fighting bedtime it could be she's caught up on the OT of course.  How's her mood now?  Do you think she's still OT?  What did the last 2 days look like in terms of A times and mood?  10.5hours can indicate UT or OT in my experience.  It was always UT with my son, and from what I remember, my daughter too, with shorter than that being OT.  It's not  definitive though, you have to take into account nap / night length with mood to figure out the whole picture.

If the CN is interefering with BT, I would try shortening the cn to 20 minutes and then try BT at 6 or 6.30ish to see if that helps.  What do you think?



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2015, 09:54:56 am »
Hmm, thinking of it now she is probably not OT anymore as her mood is fine. Maybe I've put her to bed too early after 30 min CN, around same time I would when she has 20 min CN if she is not OT anymore? I put her to bed when she starts rubbing her eyes, but still she might not be tired enough? This morning she woke around 5:20 again so she had about 10 hrs sleep. She started rubbing her eyes a bit around 9:30 so I thought she might be ready for her nap, but waited as I thought it was too early when I saw the time. She was happy playing around and in a good mood, around 10:10 she started rubbing again so I BF her, after that she was really tired rubbing eyes and also crying. Put her down, she was standing up I put her down and she fell asleep. She slept for 1.5 hrs. Maybe I'm reading her tired signs too early for BT in evening? When she was much younger maybe her sleep window was much shorter than it is now? Because then her sleep window could be easily missed.  :)

I have been putting her down in pram earlier for CN around 3:30-3:40 pm instead of 4 pm as she has been waking earlier for am nap, which is still around 3.5 hrs A time. Does this maybe also have effect on EW?

She is not sleeping any longer in morning when she falls asleep around 7-7:30 pm, which she has lately so I def agree with putting her down earlier specially when she wakes around 5:20 am. I did put her down earlier, but maybe she wasn't tired enough and also SA. If she would sleep her am nap for 2 hrs, which she hardly does it would be easier to move her to 1 nap, but I guess we are stuck with 2 naps for now?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 12:46:30 pm by NinNic »

Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2015, 19:16:27 pm »
Just a quick update on rest of today:
Today EASY:
WU around 5:20
S 10:23-11:51
S 15:44-16:04
BT put her down 18:28 fell asleep 19:18

She went down fine for CN. After CN she didn't want dinner and was crying a lot like there was something wrong, dunno if this might have to do with that she had diarrhea the other day and is a bit sore/red around anus or teething (can't see that there is any soreness/redness or feel any teeth coming up though). DH put her down at BT and still having SA. We try to put her to bed when she seems tired, but then she is happy standing up all the time when try to comfort her as soon as walk out she starts crying and same when go in to comfort her she is happy again. Is she maybe ready for 1 nap? She is going down fine for CN still. Just confused. This means she will only have 10 hr nights.  ???

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2015, 23:27:20 pm »
If you're having to AP for the cn and she's then fighting BT then it may be that she's ready for one nap, yes.  There's a really awkward time where 2 naps is too many and one is not enough, and you're probably right there. My little boy always goes down fine for naps  (if AP'D now), but it doesn't mean he always needs the sleep. It's really difficult with the EWing cos it's hard to get a one nap day in,  but we eventually used 2 naps to push BT really late  (like 8pm ), then once WU was past 6am, used that to go to 1 nap with a reasonable BT. That might be worth a go? I do think that if your A time before a nap is at 5 hrs then you're basically there as far as one nap is concerned.

WRT  tired signs,  they can be unreliable at this age and more based on habit than anything else, so you do start having to take other things into account like mood, nap / night length as well as tired signs to figure out what's going on.  They're tricky little things!  :)



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2015, 10:00:08 am »
Hi again and thanks for you advice!  :)

Have not replied for a while as LO got an ear infection from nasty runny stuffy nose and also got vaccination, which made her tired. Now we are back on track again, but still with EW of course. They are still around 5:20 am. I have posted last days of EASY below.

I think you may be right that it is out of habit she shows tired signs at BT, as when I put her down she is happy chatting away and it takes time for her to fall asleep. She still gets tired after 5 hr A time in am even if she slept for around 10.5 hrs at night. As she normally does not sleep more than 1.5 hrs for her am nap, is this too short nap if she is on 1 nap or is it ok not to have 2 hr nap? Days will then be 11.5 hrs. Do a lot of LO´s start sleeping longer when on 1 nap?

Yes I think I should start pushing BT really late so that she will wake later in morning to start with 1 nap. Right now even if she falls asleep around 7 pm she still wakes around 5 am. Will 8 pm BT make a difference? Also should CN be longer than 20 mins to keep her up til 8 pm and still around 4 pm?


Tuesday 16 June: tired from vaccine
WU a bit before 6 am
S 10:47-13:25 long nap as tired
BT 18:33

Wednesday 17 June:
WU 5:50
S 10:49 woke 11:25 cause of stuffy nose got her back to sleep 11:35-12:35
S 15:51-16:11
BT 19:05 took her 45 mins to fall asleep

Thursday 18 June:
WU 5 am
S 9:58-11:34
S 15:20-15:41
BT 18:08 took her 38 mins to fall asleep

Friday 19 June:
WU 5:20
S 10:22-11:55
S 15:40-16:00
BT 18:50 took 35 mins to fall asleep

Saturday 20 June:
WU 5:15
S 10:22-still sleeping at 11:59


« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 10:07:18 am by NinNic »

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2015, 20:36:55 pm »
I think you need to work on pushing that morning nap back a bit to nearer 12pm. What do you think about a set nap?  Many LOs do well with a set nap once they're on one nap - I think it's worth trying for one at 11.30 for a while, and then gradually moving it to 12ish.  You may find she naps for longer after a longer morning A time and the EWs will probably stop if her morning A time is longer and the cn is gone. What do you think?



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2015, 04:49:22 am »
Yes I could try that. If she wakes around 5-5:20 am I put her down for nap at 11:30? A won't be too long for her? Should I do 11:30 straight away or gradully move to 11:30 as she now goes down around 10:20 for nap?

Would you do early lunch before nap?


Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2015, 06:21:49 am »
Yes, I'd do a small lunch before her nap and then the second half after she wakes.  You could maybe start with a nap at 11 as a set time, and offer a cat nap at 3.30ish for a while. If she doesn't take it,  then do an EBT  at 6 - 6.30ish. If she does, then do a set BT of 7? Then,  after a week you could move it to 11.30 and keep the cn slot and BT the same.  If you're still getting EW after that then maybe move to 12 after another week,  but see how she's doing then?



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2015, 06:57:06 am »
Ok sounds like a good plan. If she sleeps for 2 hrs at 11 am I will skip CN?

Do you think it's am nap causing EW and not CN?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 07:03:37 am by NinNic »

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2015, 11:09:26 am »
I think it could be either - too little A time at the start or end of the day can cause issues...  Once she's on 1 nap that should address both of those!  :)

If she sleeps for 2hrs at 11 I would probably skip the cn at do an EBT instead, but if you stick with that CN window she should self-regulate on that.  If you do this:
 
You could maybe start with a nap at 11 as a set time, and offer a cat nap at 3.30ish for a while. If she doesn't take it,  then do an EBT  at 6 - 6.30ish. If she does, then do a set BT of 7?

Then it's highly unlikely that she'd take another nap only 2.5hrs after a nice long 2hr nap unless she was really very tired, so that should help her to self regulate :)



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2015, 20:51:58 pm »
Thanks for advice.  :) It makes sense.  :)

Today she refused CN, she woke 12:40 pm from her nap so slept less than 2 hrs. She fell asleep 6:23 pm for BT.

If she starts waking later in morning i.e. 5:30/ 6 am, should I already then push nap to 11:30/12 or wait for a week?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2015, 17:07:37 pm »
I would hold it at 10.30 for a week, with cn if need be, then move it to 11. You're going to hit an awkward phase where she has some long afternoons / EW with long morning A's, but you've got to push on through it to get solidly on one nap.  You'll get there :)



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2015, 18:37:11 pm »
Oh I thought you said nap at 11 am to start with, which I have done and even today a bit later as she seemed fine and as she woke a bit later today (5:23 am) compared to previous 2 days. Is it too much to push nap to around 11-11:30? It´s just she seems to sleep longer with the longer A time in am. I feel she is ready for 1 nap, hope not pushing too much though? Also CN has been to close to am nap and yesterday she refused it completely after 1 hr 40 min am nap.

If she now sleeps around 2 hr nap around 11:30 am to 1:30 pm, when is a good BT for her? Guess it still depends on her WU time? If it is 5:30/6 am to start with?

When she is at WU 6:30/7 am at what time would nap be and BT?


Last 3 days of EASY since started push nap:

Sun 21 June:
WU 5
S 11:10-13:20
BT 18:31

Mon 22 June:
WU 5:10
S 11:03-12:40
Refused CN
BT 18:23

Tues 23 June:
WU 5:23
S 11:25-13:21
BT 18:42

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2015, 18:42:37 pm »
Sorry, I did say 11am for a set nap time to start with!  Sorry, I've got loads going on here at the moment. I think my brain is protesting!

It does look like she's settling into one nap well.  If you've done 3 days of a set nap at 11 you could push it to 11.30, but then I'd hold that for a week at least,  to let her adjust. I probably would only offer a cn then if she seems really tired, and even then only for 15-20 minutes. Your day looks pretty good, so I'd stick with a 6.30 BT for now and if she maintains 11hr nights then look to shifting it.  But I'd keep the 11.30 nap and 6.30 BT for a week first  :)



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2015, 18:57:02 pm »
Thanks for quick reply! I can imagine you have a lot! Sorry to keep writing, but for me this BW forum is really amazing with what help and advice I get! Thanks a million!!!  :)

Great, I will stick with it for a week and let you know how it goes!

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2015, 19:12:32 pm »
Don't worry - post as often as you like!  I only wish I could be more responsive more often :) 

Glad you're enjoying the forums - I love them too  ;D



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 05:40:22 am »
Hi again,

WAnt to post last days lf EASY as she is not sleeping enough at night. She hasn't slept more than 1.5 hrs for am nap, She has slept for CN and therefore going to bed later but still waking around 5 am. I don't want her to get OT. What do you think I should do, keep CN or put to bed earlier? We are staying at my parents so dont know if that is affecting her sleep, dont think so.

EASY:
Wed:
WU 5 am
S 10:58-12:23
S 16:16-16:23 took 10 mins to fall asleep in pram, were travelling so couldnt get her to sleep earlier
BT 19:33 took her 43 mins to fsll asleep

Thu:
WU 5
S 11:18-12:46
S 15:44-16:00 took her 25 mins to fall asleep in pram
BT 19:15 took her 35 mins to fall asleep

Fri:
WU 4:45 got her back to sleep 5:10 woke 5:45
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 10:11:18 am by NinNic »

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2015, 13:39:56 pm »
Hi, sorry for the late reply - I've been away for a few days. The EWing could be related to being away - we've just had 3 mornings of 5.30am starts where we've been away and we're reliably on post -6am WUs normally, and no naps so the EWs are nothing to do with them!

How long are you away for?



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2015, 18:16:36 pm »
We are back home now since Monday afternoon. When away had to pat her at BT or calm her.

When I didn't hear from you, I decided to put her to bed earlier with 1 nap instead of CN also, as I didn't want days to get too long.

Have now had nap at 11:30 for over a week like you suggested. Should I keep 11:30 or push?

If she wakes at 5:30, 6 am or later do I still put her to bed at 6/6:30 pm? Do I keep same BT if she sleeps for 2 hr nap or even longer?

These are the last 4 days of EASY:

Sun 28 June: at my parent’s place
WU 5:20
S 11:23-13:45
BT 18:30 took 19 mins to fall asleep, had to calm her few times

Mon 29 June: at my parent’s place, home for BT
WU 4:50 (had pooed, changed and patted didn’t fall asleep)
S 11:26-13:01
BT 18:02 (in bed at home) took 10 mins to fall asleep, had to calm her

Tues 30 June:
WU 5:30
S 11:32-13:13
BT 18:28 took 30 mins to fall asleep,
Woke when put blanket on her at 12 am fell asleep 12:20 am on her own

Wed 1 July:
WU 6:00
S 11:32-13:46
BT 19:05 took 44 mins to fall asleep, had to go in few times and put my hand on her back, in the end pat her til calm (think she might have been too warm and therefor took longer to fall asleep




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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2015, 05:12:29 am »
Great, I think that cn had to go and it looks like you're nearly there in terms of transitioning to one nap. Her nights are actually a pretty good length now (although shifted a bit early), and her naps look pretty good too.  I would try gradually shifting her day so you can get her nap and BT later, which should also shift her WU time if the cn has gone.  How about a set nap time of 11.45 and a set BT of 6.30 for a few days and see how she goes?

Do you have a sense of whether she prefers a longer first or second A time?



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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2015, 05:30:55 am »
Thanks for your reply!  :)

Yesterday EASY looked like this:
WU 5:15
S 11:32-12:51 felt nap was not long enough as she only had about 10 hr night so got her back to sleep 13:10-14:17
BT 18:31 put her to bed at 17:50- maybe a bit early after long nap as it took her some time to fall asleep was crying some also so had to go in few times

This morning woke 5:36.

Hmm I think longer A in morning if she has slept 11 hrs, but find it difficult to say as she is hyper in pm if slept long nap.

Ok will def try 11:45 am, just when she wakes around 5 am it seems to be too long A in am so she tends to not sleep too long for her nap, but maybe necessary for shift?

If she she sleeps 1.5 hrs compared to 2 hr or more still BT at 6:30 pm?

Just to make sure: nap 11:45 am and BT at 6:30 pm even of wakes at 5 and doesn't nap more than 1.5 hrs?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2015, 10:42:09 am »
Yeah, nap set at 11.45am if she prefers long mornings, and BT at 6.30, but I would try and resettle if she doesn't have a long nap (less than 1.5 hrs) like you did yesterday. If she really won't resettle and/ or has woken very early in the morning I'd try an EBT of 6 or 6.15, depending on how bad it is,  but really you need to start shifting her day so I wouldn't let BT get any earlier.  If you think she's struggling I would offer an earlier nap  (11.20?) and do a 15 minute cn at 4ish if she'll let you,  and then a later BT of 7 or 7.30. 

The other thing I did at this stage was go back to offering a cn and move BT really late to shift WU time, and then go fully to one nap when WU  was where I wanted it to be.  It means you'll have a few really late nights / long days, but it did work for us. We used a cat nap in the late afternoon to push BT back to 8ish, which shifted WU to after 6am, at which point the midday nap and 6.30/7 pm bedtime worked better.  I think it took J about 3-4 days to shift WU, even with the later nights, so we had a very tired, grumpy boy for a bit.  But it did work :)



Offline NinNic

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2015, 05:40:43 am »
Hmm, think I will wait with CN in late pm for late BT and try pushing gradually or maybe it will take too long?

Say she wakes at time I would like her to wake in morning, can I then shift nap to 12, which we are aiming for?

Yesterday EASY:
WU 5:36
S 11:35-13:19
BT 6:29

This morning WU 5:20

Are we in the end aiming for WU 6:30/7, nap 12 and BT 7 or later?

What is min and max time for that 1 nap?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 05:17:54 am by NinNic »

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Early morning waking 10.5 month old
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2015, 07:24:18 am »
Are we in the end aiming for WU 6:30/7, nap 12 and BT 7 or later?

What is min and max time for that 1 nap?

Yeah, I would say that would be a good routine to aim for.

Once you're on one nap, anything over 1.5 hrs is good, though my LO  rarely did more than 1hr  20 (that was 2 sleep cycles for him), and that was fine. He's LSN though. I would try and resettle anything less than 1.5 hrs.  In terms of a maximum,  I wouldn't say there is one at this stage - I would always let her sleep uncapped. If she starts lengthening her nap and shortening her night then you might need to temporarily cap it to get her back on track,  but 11hr nights look good to me, so I'd leave the nap uncapped  :)

In terms of shifting her day, yes, I would definitely take advantage of a late WU to shift the nap and BT if you get the chance  :)