3-2 Transition and now NWs and EW

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry for the late reply  - I've been away for a few days.  And I'm afraid I didn't pick up that your LO wasn't going to sleep independently - I had realised that he was falling asleep whilst feeding at BT but I hadn't thought to check he was going into his cot awake.  I agree with your plan to sleep train before making any more A time changes.  Pick Up Put Down  (PUPD) is often more successful at 6 months than sshhh pat, though I believe the idea is that you try and settle in the cot with sshhh pat, and then pick up if your LO  is getting upset, but of course then Putting Down afterwards. I'll find you some links. Have a read and let me know if you have any questions. I'm also here to hand hold if you want to give it a go

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Here you go:

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

[Mom2012]

Well I had started out at 4mo trying to do shh/pat when I transitioned him from the swing to his crib.  He was doing pretty good for a while.  Most days for his first two naps I swaddle (arms out) while singing a song, then lay him in bed, keep my hand on his back, say my phrase, and then he drifts off to sleep fairly easy.  But it is not that simple always.  When he started resisting/refusing naps and BT, I started holding him.  I always try to put him down before he falls asleep, but sometimes he is pretty close to being asleep when I put him down.  At BT, I hold him a long time and same for NWs.  I have done pretty good at trying to not let him fall asleep BF before bed so that he will be awake.  He isn't taking 2hrs to go to sleep anymore, but about 45min.  Guess that's improvement, but we are having to hold for a while for him to get sleepy.  EWs I usually BF and then hold in my arms for him to sleep.  So, we definitely need to work on teaching him to be an independent sleeper. 

I read over all the links on PU/PD.  I do have some questions and was wondering if I should just go ahead and start a new post on that.  Have you used PU/PD before?

[Mom2012]

I do want to start ASAP with some kind of method for sleep training.  I ST DS1 when he was between 10 and 11mo.  We used the gradual withdrawal method.  He would fall asleep in my arms and I would carefully lay him down, but he would wake up pretty soon after and we would repeat.  He was up ALL NIGHT LONG!  Since holding him was the prop, I wouldn't pick up him up at all out of the crib during sleep training.  I would sit by his bed and have my hand in between the rails.  He would crawl all over the place but finally he would find my hand and snuggle up next to it and go to sleep.  I gradually did less, moved farther away, and now he is turning 3 this weekend and is still a great sleeper!

Does this method not work on a younger baby?  DS2 will be 7mo this weekend.  Or do I have to do PU/PD?  My fear is that since he is used to me holding him to get sleepy, he is just going to get more and more upset each time I put him down.  I didn't know if it was best to not pick up at all or is he too young for that? 

Also, he is still nursing at night.  With DS1, I was still feeding him once but since he was older I didn't think he was eating for hunger but more for comfort so we pretty much just stopped it during ST and he did fine.  However, DS2 eats once or twice throughout the night.  Honestly, I don't know if they are both from hunger, habit, or me just looking for a quick fix because I'm tired.  For a while, he was only eating once really late at night, but this second feeding has picked back up recently when all the NWs and EWs happened.  For example, last night he ate at 10 and 2.  How do I handle nursing and ST?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I have done PUPD with my two but only really to get back on track after a bit of AP, and more with my daughter cos my son has always been an independent sleeper, really, and I haven't found myself needing to AP with him.  If you've had successs with GW before though, and you prefer that to PUPD then that should work fine

With regards to feeding at NWs, at 7.5 months I'd have thought one feed would be enough, especially if he was doing this before.  It's a tricky one though.  What some people do is have a time they won't feed before, and try and settle through other means before that.  I would probably pick the one at 10ish to try and resettle without feeding at, cos having that sort of battle at 2am is hard work.  Then, when you do feed, I'd just make sure he's awake when you put him back in the cot, so he's not using it to go back to sleep.  It is a really tricky one when they could feasibly still need a feed - you may find it difficult to really solve that one until he's a couple of months older and you have more confidence that he doesn't need a feed in the night any more.  Then you could look to stop any NFs altogether.

[Mom2012]

Ok, I just wasn't sure if not picking him up at all was too harsh for his age.  Do you know if GW is used with younger babies?  I couldn't find the link on it to see what it says.  I know either way will be hard on him since he is used to me picking him up and holding for a while.  I just didn't know if not picking him up at all would be better than picking him up but then putting him right back down. 

For most naps on most days I don't have to PU.  I just either pat his back or keep my hand on him.  So I know he CAN go to sleep without me having to PU.  However, when he wakes from a nap early or NWs, he almost always screams/cries. So that is when I PU.  He doesn't seem to give me a chance to see if he can go back to sleep on his own because he starts off with crying.  Also, he cries a lot at BT.  It seems like I can lay him down and he will play for a bit but eventually cry so that's when I PU. So which do you think would be more comforting to do: PU/PD or GW?  I just feel so guilty listening to him cry even though I am still with him.  But I know there will be crying with any ST method.

Do you have a suggestion on what time I would try to not feed before?

I'm obviously very unsure on which way to go with ST and all your advice is greatly appreciated!!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, GW is fine for younger babies - I had to check too but it is   I think GW is gentler to be honest, and though he will cry, at least you're there with him, which might help you if nothing else!  Plus if you've done it with your oldest, you're more likely to stick at it than if you try something new.

At 7 months, my LO was sleeping til 3 or 4ish without a night feed, though occasionally still waking at 2.  This is without a dream feed and with a BT of 7pm.  I think I'd be strict about not feeding before 2am if you can bear it....

Good luck!   

[Mom2012]

Ok I'm thinking I'm going to go with GW.  I do have a few questions though:
1. He still uses the swaddle but with both arms left out.  Should I try taking that away when I start GW?  He is starting to crawl and moves a lot in the bed so wasn't sure if he would need that off to have more freedom?
2. So is this the plan?  After nursing, I read him one story and sing one song and put him in bed.  Then I will start with the GW, right? No PU but say my sleep phrase in a low, boring voice to let him know I'm there.  If he isn't crying when I put him down, do I not even try to put my hand on his back?  Do I let him do his own thing but still stay nearby until he seems like he needs me?  Then maybe once finally settles, put my hand on his back until asleep?
3. I am worried about NWs.  He almost always wakes crying and I immediately PU and hold.  So if I am not going to PU anymore, I'm just so worried he will be up for hours.  But I am to stay consistent and not PU even if it takes hours?
4. I am VERY worried about EWs.  He is still waking early.  It is not always the same time though.  Can be around 4 or 5.  Two nights ago he woke at 4:15. I tried for 30min to hold and settle but wouldn't so I gave in and nursed to sleep.  This morning he woke at 5 but didn't cry so I tried to leave him in there to see what would happen.  After 30min of him crawling around I was worried about EW messing up our day so I nursed to sleep.  If he wakes early like this when I start GW what do I do?  If he never goes back to sleep do you really start your day at whatever time he woke up?
5. I am struggling with NFs.  The last two nights he only woke twice but I really felt like he was hungry.  I sent DH in to try to settle him and he tried for maybe 30min but said he acted hungry, so I fed him.  Both nights it was around 11.  Then I would feed again with the EW (around 4-5).  But I know when I start GW I can't let him cry for 30min and then PU to feed.  So I don't know how to handle this.  I really don't feel like he is eating enough during the day and maybe that's why he's hungry at night.  He has always been a quick nurser, but lately he is not staying on long at all and it's making me think he's maybe not getting enough.  He is very distracted when nursing and once he comes off I can't get him back on!  Could I start with 2 feedings or pick one time?
6. With DS1, he did so great with night sleep when we started.  The first night he took 45 min to go to sleep and woke twice but put himself back to sleep! Every night after that he went to sleep easier and stayed asleep all night. (I am hoping it is this way with DS2 but I think I got lucky there!) However, he skipped naps for days!!  I think I remember someone telling me to only try for maybe 45min and if doesn't sleep then give up.  Is that 45min right?  Then I would try again with a shorter A time, correct? 

Last question (I think ...I start back work in 2 months.  Do you think this is the right thing to do now?  I am hoping within the 2 months he will learn to be a more independent sleeper so that he will nap okay with the lady who keeps him.  She does set nap times for the kids, so I am already worried he won't be tired enough or too tired for her times.  If I work on this now, do you think it will help him for when he's there, or am I just going to go through all this work to possibly have to do something else when he starts there??

Thank you so much for helping me out!!  I think I mentioned before I have a 2yo also, so I am really nervous about starting ST with a 2yo home also.  I hope it goes well!!

[Mom2012]

Sorry for all the questions!! I thought of one more. Is singing a prop? When my LO is crying a lot, I will start singing and he usually stops. But then I do continue to sing for a while to keep him calm. Would this be okay with gw or no?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry for the delay - I can't type much on my phone so had to wait til I could get on the laptop to reply. Hugs for what you have to come! I was sleep training my littlest one when my daughter was 3ish, and she never once woke, if that helps.  I'm sure you'll be fine - a bad night or two and you'll be there, I'm sure

For your questions...

1.  I probably would wean the swaddle at the same time - you might as well, or you'll have to do it all again shortly anyway.  I don't know what you think about sleeping bags but I always found them to be an easy step on from swaddling.
2. I would put him into bed and then walk out.  If / when he starts to cry, that's when I'd go in, try and settle him in the cot, and sit with him.  If he doesn't cry, or is just moaning, I'd leave him to it.  If you need to go, you can put your hand on his back to settle him (or you could even start with having your arms around him like you're holding him, while he's in the cot if you think that'd help), that's fine, but try not to have it there when he goes to sleep.  If he needs it, that's OK too, just plan your next step the next day to have him go to sleep without your hand being on him (e.g. use your hand to settle him, then move it to the mattress / bars of the cot once he's calm).  Then after a day or so, try and just use your voice and sit next to him. next day, just use your voice and sit a bit further away etc. til you are settling from the door, then outside it, and then you're done!
3. Yes, definitely stay consistent - it'll be over quicker if you are.  I know it's hard - we used to have 2hr NWs with my son and it was horrible - but if you stay consistent it's easier on you both in the long run.
4. We had EWs too..  I feel your pain.  What I did was have an acceptable WU time in mind (e.g 6am), an treated everything before this as a NW.  Yes, we did sometimes start the day at 4.30am, but for an hour and a half of that I was doing WIWO.  That said, if you think he might genuinely be hungry then I would feed, but try and make sure he goes back down awake, so you're not introducing a feed-to-sleep association.  Then walk out, and go back in to do GW if he needs it. 
5.  You could start with stopping the hold-to-sleep association first, and keep the feeds if you think he still genuinely needs them. You might find that if he learns to self settle then he wakes less for a feed anyway.  Just make sure he's going back in the cot awake.  In the meantime, you could try upping his calories in the day.  Have you tried feeding in a quiet, dark room during the day, so there are less distractions?  I had to do this with my daughter, who was very nosy!  Or you could increase the amount of solids he's having?  Offer a snack before bed?  Or have you tried a dream feed at 10.30ish?
6. I think it's quite common to sort nights and then have nap problems   If that happens, it's probably cos he's getting more night sleep and therefore needs a bit of an A time push.  I would try for a nap for 30 - 45 minutes, yes, then go and do something else for 10 minutes (nappy change / feed / snack / look at books), then come back to it.  If he'll sleep in the car, I'd do that if he really won't nap, and then the next day try increasing his first A time by 15 minutes and see if that helps.  Just don't AP by holding him or you'll confuse him...

If you're going back to work in 2 months I'd say this is the perfect time   It'll be much easier to do it now, and gives it plenty of time to bed in before that becomes another factor!  How many days a week will he be in daycare?  Would you do set naps at home? Many LOs do well on set naps from this age.  Or otherwise you might just have to do catch up days at home if he doesn't nap well at nursery. Either way, if he's sleeping independently and you have an idea of what A times he needs it'll help him catch up / deal with the change I reckon.

Finally, on the singing, I used to sing to Jack when he cried to help settle him (in fact I still do if he's really worked up about something).  A bit like the hand on the back, I'd just make sure you're not singing right until he's asleep.  Once he starts calming himself I'd start slowly singing quieter and quieter until you've stopped.  That worked fine for us.

Good luck! 

[Mom2012]

First of all, thank you for answering all my questions! So I'm not sure what got into him last night but when I put him in the bed awake he didn't cry so I just kinda let him be. He whined some and was pushing up looking for me so I put my hand on his back and he went to sleep. He only woke at 10 (he settled himself), then at 1:45 to eat and then at 6:30 for the day! Then again he went to sleep tonight like that also! His naps weren't great today but we were away from home so that's to be expected for now. I was planning on starting tomorrow night but he's getting a little head start

I think with the feedings I will try for one and see how it goes. He did fine last night with one, so maybe that's all he needs. You are probably right about him eventually not waking for it once he learns to settle himself because once you mentioned it I remembered that happening with DS1.

I have another question about EW. Let's say he wakes at 4:30 and I just cannot get him back to sleep...do you consider 4:30 his wake up time, so I would try for nap #1 at 7:30(I do 3hr A time for that nap)? Also, when you say you pick an acceptable wake up time i.e. 6am, does that mean you would try until then to get him back to sleep before getting him up for the day? So I'm confused on if 6 is the wake up time or 4:30? Just want to make sure when I would try for a nap.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That's great that he's started to self settle by himself!  That'll probably make things much easier for you both  

Wrt the EWs, I always couted 4.30 (say) as the WU time, and 6 as get up time, and yes, I would try until 6 to get him back to sleep.  It's a horrible way to start the day, I know, but otherwise you're sending the message that it's OK to get up at 4.30, which it obviously isn't.

If J EW'd I did count 4.30 as his WU time, but I'd also take into account that until 6 his A time was very low key as he was just in his cot in the dark (albeit crying most of the time).  It generally would make our day very wierd to nap so early in the day, so  I used to try and push that first A as much as I thought I could.  Some people only count half of the time betwen WU and get up as real A time (this is what I used to aim for), others only count the first A from get up time, some need to count it from WU.  It's a bit of trial and error I'm afraid.  Generally with EWs if they're caused by UT then it's best to push the first A anyway, so I'd probably go for counting half of the A time for starters and see where that gets you.

Good luck!  Let me know how you get on

[Mom2012]

Well we started last night and BT went great again!  It took him about 15min to go to sleep.  I tried to step back and let him do it on his own but I did pat/keep my hand on him once he started getting upset.  Then he fell asleep with my hand on him.  I guess that is where I would start with the GW-try to gradually take my hand off before he falls asleep.  He then woke around 8:30.  We waited until he cried for us, so DH went in and patted/kept his hand on his back.  It only took a few min!  BUT he woke at 11:10, but didn't cry until about 11:40.  I had picked 12:30 to be my earliest time to feed so I was very hesitant on whether to feed or not.  We decided for DH to try to settle.  He did okay at first.  He continued to cry but seemed like he was going to settle but never did.  He ended up crying so much that he was choking himself and shaking.  DH ended up picking him up because he was worried about him.  SO....what do you do in this situation??  We weren't prepared for crying like that because he has never done that.  At that point it was now 12:30, I figured we already PU, so I fed.  So I guess that hour or so didn't really teach him anything on sleeping independently since we PU and fed but we didn't know what to do!

He woke this morning at 5:35, but I guess that isn't an EW because the last few nights he has been going to bed around 6:30.  Before, he was taking so long to go to sleep that he wouldn't go to bed until almost 8 and then wake early also so he was getting like 9-10hrs of sleep, but now he is getting closer to 11 total.  Since he continues to wake around that time, BT is earlier.  I'm not sure how to get our BT and WU later, but I'm not too worried about that right now since he's not waking really early!! We will tackle that later

If he continues to do BT like he has done the last 3 nights but requires us to do a lot more (i.e. - sing, put both hands on him, pat, etc.) at NWs, do I go ahead and do GW just at BT??  And we would still do whatever we need to do (besides PU) to settle him for NW?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry you had such a rotten nw after such a good start at BT It's horrible when you see your LO like that. If that happens again I think it'd be fine to PU if he's getting very worked up,  help him calm down and then put him back down when he's calmed to carry on with the sshh pat.  The feeding thing is tricky - we had something similar with my LO when he was 5 or 6 months old - when he woke in the evening it was too early for a feed, but by the time he'd screamed for an hour or two it was feasibly time to eat.  I think my husband persuaded me to stick to the plan and settle him without a feed and he did eventually stop crying and go back to sleep. It was horrible though.... However, I do remember that he then slept til 5am before waking for a feed, which was unheard of then! Anyway, if you have the same again, I would PU and try and calm him before putting him down again - and be prepared for the anger when you do!

With the GW and him falling asleep with your hand on him, I think that's a fantastic first step And yes, slowly you'd aim to have him fall asleep with your hand close by but not touching him (it's ok to touch him still to help calm him, you're just making sure he doesn't fall asleep with it there).

On your last question, I'd use the same technique at BT as at NWS.  Start with the sshh pat and only PU if he's getting really upset.  If he doesn't need you to PU at BT, that's great, but you start the same way, use the same words, and aim to end the same way, as this will all help him understand that you're going to respond to NWS the same way as you do at BT.

Hope that makes sense. Good luck for tonight!

[Mom2012]

Ok, hopefully he won't get so worked up again tonight.  It is really tough to decide with the feeding.  After him being up that long I did feel like he was hungry.  I guess I was thinking he wouldn't ever go back to sleep hungry, so I was supposed to feed him.

Him falling asleep for naps today went great!  He fell right asleep for both with my hand on his back.  The first nap he slept 2hr, but the second he woke after 30min.  I tried shh/pat but he rarely goes back to sleep after a short nap even when I hold him, so I didn't try too long on that.  Now I'm stuck with a tricky situation.  On days where it's too early for BT and the CN is late, he is nearly impossible to get to sleep (even with me holding him) for the CN.  I am terrified to try this afternoon and not be able to PU.  I have realized that even with a short nap, he needs about the full A time to even get close to taking a nap afterwards.  So I will try around 5:15 for a CN today.  If I am supposed to try for 45min for a nap, would that still be the case with a late CN?  Would I try until 6, get him up if he didn't sleep, then feed, and try for BT?  My worry is he will then be OT and fall asleep nursing and have trouble getting him in the bed awake.  I know I can also use a car ride for a nap, but with my 3yo that can be tough because he is loud and a distraction for my LO to fall asleep and then stay asleep.