Another BT issue post.. Sorry, but need help with 22mo

[Kellyjs]

Hi ladies,

I know many are dealing with BT issues atm, there must be something in the water 

We've been having BT issues with DD for many weeks now and it's just not getting better whatever I do, so I was hoping for some fresh eyes to see what I can do to change this.

Ok, bit of background. DD used to wu 6.30, nap from 12.30-2.30, BT at 7, asleep by 7.30. She has always taken 30 mins to go to sleep since the 2-1 except on a very odd occasion. A few months back I cut the nap so she was doing 12.45-2.15 and added on 15 mins before BT so bed at 7.15, asleep by 7.45pm.

Now we are getting many call backs, specifically saying 'nappy' (we have started sporadically PT because of this), or 'water please'. This goes on for 45mins +. So I cut the nap back even further (12.45-2) and made BT slightly later too (in bed for 7.20-30). But she's not falling asleep until closer to 8.30pm or later. We've also changed up her BT routine wrt when she has her BT milk so she no longer wees straight after going to bed, so we now do that at around 6.15-30 and wait until she has a wee before putting her in the bath. Weeing in the bath started to freak her out too and resulted in an exit from the bath many Olympic high jumpers would be proud of! 

On a side note, she gets plenty of expertise int  he afternoon as we take long walks (1.5miles), she's mentally stimulated as she enjoyed jigsaw puzzles and reading books, so I'm just at a complete loss! If it is developmental, surely it should have rectified itself by now?!

[Truly Blessed]

it is developmental, surely it should have rectified itself by now?!

How long exactly has it been going on Hun? From what you have written, it does look developmental on he face of it TBH. Is there any chance the nap 'cut' was too much for her and she is now OT in addition?

What is actually going on developmentally ATM?

The problem is that for us fast moving development caused extra tiredness but a resistance to sleep.

How long is it since you cut the nap?

What's her sleep needs do you think 

Many ((HUGS)) Honey, it is so darn hard and frustrating  .

[Kellyjs]

Thanks for the reply hun, I feel like it's been going on forever but it's probably been going on about 5-6weeks perhaps?

I never know about OT with her tbh, we normally have more issues is she's UT. I don't really recognise the signs and never have   

She is talking a little more and starting to form sentences, but that's been the same for a few months now. She's done everything else ahead of time like jumping, walking up stairs, her ability for jigsaw puzzles still amaze me 

I cut the nap again and added the extra A time to BT about 2 weeks ago now. I do try and let her sleep in on weekends if needs be when creations said on a previous post about allowing them to self-regulate. But she's only ever slept in till 6.45am perhaps 7 ever!

Funnily enough today, we had a christening to go to and she had a NND (apart from around 5mins in the car at 3.30pm), BT at 6.20pm and still didn't go to sleep until 7.05pm. A couple of call backs and her atrocious singing as per usual. (Obviously gets her singing talents from me!  ). What I did notice though is that many of the LO's there started having meltdowns later on and she was perfectly fine... Actually got happier and more chattier as the day went on. Is that strange then? I've only had DD to go by and judging on how others were doing throughout the day, I'm thinking she might be in the minority!  xx

[Truly Blessed]

So before this was she on a 'normal' routine (if there is one!) or has she always shown signs of being LSN?

She sounds super bright and it does often go that these clever LO's with so much going on in there little head's sleep less (from what I have seen here).

What I did notice though is that many of the LO's there started having meltdowns later on and she was perfectly fine... Actually got happier and more chattier as the day went on. Is that strange then?

One of 2 things, either she isn't OT at all, which it certainly doesn't sound like to me, or she is a LO who goes 'hyper' OT appearing more energetic and happy (Sam used to do this).

If I were to go with my gut from this post alone, I would say she is UT still. She isn't melting down before BT, she is doing beautiful singing and executing 'call backs' at BT which for us are UT every time! always have been. OT for Sam and the majority of LO's I have followed as a BW are resisting BT but with upset and thrashing around in bed, seemingly trying to sleep but unable. Sorry if I'm 'telling my Granny how to suck eggs' just thinking it through whilst I type  .

How much sleep is she getting in 24 hours at the moment 

Have you ever pushed the first A time as long as you can, to see if long am over rides short pm for her? I think it was at this age when that came into play for Sam :/.

x.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

My kids all do the hyper when OT or OS thing and not the meltdown and seem tired bit. Makes it hard to know when to draw the line but nice when out as I would rather have bouncing off the walls than screaming! DD3 is almost 21 months and very LSN and we are down to a 45 min nap and an 11 hr night mostly. Yesterday we were out and she lasted from 7:30 am until 6:00 pm and then zonked in the van for 20 mins...which led to an EW.  For us UT or OT usually result in NW or EW not bedtime sillies.

Lol on the singing...DD1 used to have an atrocious singing voice and now she is a very talented singer, so there may be hope yet .

[Truly Blessed]

Darn it Heidi you just blew all my theories out of the window lol.x.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Darn it Heidi you just blew all my theories out of the window lol.x.

Lol! You never know - I could very well be barking up the wrong tree...I am so biased to LSN these days that I have to keep checking the average A time sticky before remarking on posts!

[Kellyjs]

Haha, I'm so glad you two are finding this as confusing as I am!  . And definitely not Vicki, you can teach granny to suck eggs anytime as it seems I have no clue when it come to my own LO!! 

She's averaging about 10-10.5hrs ONS and the 1hr 15mims nap atm. We had one OT (I think) wu last night at 9.05pm where she was sitting up, a little upset, but it a quick resettle was all that was needed. Otherwise she woke at 5.50am and I think she went back to sleep until 6.45am? I'm not 100% as I went back to sleep myself  . She was starting to play up around 5.30pm last night so I'm thinking that's when she might have hit her wall with her NND. I couldn't get my mother off FaceTime to get her in bed any quicker 

Originally I was going to push out the nap to cap it, but I felt she did need longer before BT so cut it from there instead. We very rarely have problems with her going down for her nap (she loves it and still doesn't appreciate being woken from it) surprisingly but that has never ever been an issue for her as when I joined the site her A times were much too low for her age  . So maybe she's very good at learned nap times? Oh, I just don't know anymore.

She did transition to one nap fully at 11mo ish and could handle long A times in the morning every well. But although she was capable of this I started thinking she was more ASN than low? Again, I haven't got a clue now.

My only problem with pushing out the nap is that she might be even more grumpy about been woken up and the BT silliness gets worse as the A time is cut? Any ideas would be more than appreciated. I'm stumped! 

P.s and Heidi, that did make me lol about your DD's singing, though there are absolutely no singing genes here on either side so if she can hold a tune later in life it'll be a miracle 

[Truly Blessed]

And definitely not Vicki, you can teach granny to suck eggs anytime as it seems I have no clue when it come to my own LO!! 

And there in lies the essence of this forum lol it does get easier though, honest! (at least with sleep while other issues take over  )

It just occurred to me that although she is resisting BT many of the issues that go along with sleep resistance usually she just seems to skip, like every day grumpiness (she chooses to sing instead) EW with no resettle (she stays in her cot, and sometimes resettles! is that right?)

So I guess the things that need addressing are nap time and length to suit her best, and minimise BT shenanigans.

As she doesn't like being woken from her nap, I would say if you decide to cut it back, then go with the softly softly approach (if you can stand it) and cut an extra 5 mins at a time. Have her favourite snack and TV programme at the ready to distract all you can.

Because this does kinda smell of development, in some part at least I'd say, it could be dangerous to cut the nap back any more at the moment I guess, in case you are 'over fixing' what isn't broken :/.

I'm wondering if you could maybe approach this in a ST way, with WI/WO. Not in order to stimulate her brain whenever you go back in, but just to let her know 'Mammy is still 'with you' and help transition to sleep, without her feeling the need to 'call back.' If she's not upset maybe stick to every 5 mins or so. Hash out all of the reasons for call backs before she goes down if you can (BTDT) then don't indulge her, unless she has a soiled nappy.

So looking at something like this:

WU: 6.30

Nap: 12.45 - 2.00 capped (distract with terrible family singing upon WU )

In bed by 7.15 (maybe try the audio stories instead of white noise?)

Then tell her Mammy will be back, and do WI/WO every 5 mins or so.

The reason I'm suggesting this is to play to her personality and what is going on developmentally. I wonder if the reason she is not sleeping quickly with such a short nap is because her little brain can't switch off and she is finding it difficult to give up the contact/human stimulation, so in doing WI/WO initially and offering an audio story she may rest easier.

There is every chance this may be a ridiculous idea lol, but sometimes a little bit of straw clutching can pay off

x.

[Kellyjs]

Thanks so much hun, at least if I do wake her up with my singing there will be little chance she'll go back off to sleep hee hee 

Yep, you're totally spot on, little grumpiness, happy to stay in bed etc. I totally understand about over fixing it, it's just gone on so long! Thinking back though every time she is doing something developmentally she does mess about with BT even more, but it think I've cut the nap back or extended the A before BT each time too 

I can totally do the wi/wo, I'll just have my glass of wine and ipad perched on the stairs ready  . I don't mind clutching at straws at all, I'll give anything a go! Thanks so much, will let you know how we get on tonight 

[Truly Blessed]

Good luck Hun, you never know I guess, if it's not a sleep issue and totally developmental maybe filling up her cup in this way could work.x.

[Kellyjs]

So, she's was vvv insistent about her nappy this evening  . Stuck with it, there's no way she's had yet another poo today. Anyway, she would've been very upset if she had done one and I wasn't paying attention. Every 5mins I went in and repeated our night night phrase. Don't think she was best pleased about all this though, I've obviously been indulging these silly call backs for far too long it seems .

45mins and all quiet.....    xx

[Kellyjs]

Forgot to say.. I did try an offer an audio book, but as it was on my phone she automatically thought 'marmis' (music) was coming on and started jumping up and down and doing jazz hands  . Luckily her dancing is far better than her singing, however maybe her favourite song 'all about the bass' is too much before bed???  xx

[Truly Blessed]

45mins and all quiet.....    xx

Not long then 

I did try an offer an audio book, but as it was on my phone she automatically thought 'marmis' (music) was coming on and started jumping up and down and doing jazz hands  .

PMSL, I love jazz hands she sounds like a hoot! 

Sorry, this is not supposed to be amusing  at least you can still smile Hun 

x.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

We did youtube video dance parties all winter right before bath & bed! DD3 loves music...but we kind of ended of with slow songs to calm things down.

45 min is not too bad! Fx it gets better and better.