Another BT issue post.. Sorry, but need help with 22mo

[Kellyjs]

Thanks creations. If it's stumped you too then at least I know I'm not completely losing it!! 

She's no longer saying nappy for call backs now. We've had to abandon potty training as she's learnt the word no and categorically states she wants nothing to do with the potty! It is the cutest no ever though, it sounds like a 'nope'  .  I'll try again with the potty in a couple of weeks. The call backs are more fake crying, shouting and generally mucking about like refusing to lie down 

She is trying hard with her words, but it's just been going on so long now I'm unsure if it's just developmental. I mean how long do these usually last?! She is becoming more opinionated however  . No sign of 2yr molars yet either.

[creations]

Really sounds UT at BT but not if you say it actually gets worse with later BT.

With the call backs you are doing WI/WO is that right?
Have you tried just sitting outside and giving verbal instruction to go to sleep? A key sleepy phrase or a firmer tone (I call it teacher voice, not nasty but authoritative ) to "go to sleep".

[Kellyjs]

I know, I thought UT at BT too that's why I was capping the nap back to 2.15pm. It's crazy though. That one day last week, she only had an hour long nap, BT at 8.30pm and still played up for just over an hour. I just can't win 

I have started just talking through the door. Mind you, this is only the third day now. I do think wi/wo made it worse thinking about it. She just shouted louder and louder until I went in. I'm outside her door now, but haven't said anything yet as she's singing e-i-e-i-o from old macdonald  . Doesn't sound like she'll be winding down anytime soon   . at least it's not the crazy, yucky shouting that we have had recently (probably just jinxed that now!) x

[creations]

How do you think she would react if, instead of sitting outside listening to her sing, you told her not to sing and to go to sleep?
I can remember doing this with DS, I was outside and said something like "Be quiet. It's sleepy time, Go to sleep."  My tone/attitude was pretty much and "I'm in charge, I know what's good for you, it IS sleep time, you need to sleep" instructional in the same way I might tell him he is not allowed to go near a hot oven or pick up the glass bottles in the supermarket or that we have to brush his teeth - non-negotiable tone. Do you know what I mean?
I also used to (when putting him down more than once I was out of the room) say to him things like "You may not sing now, go straight to sleep and you can sing all night in dream land, all your friends are there waiting for you, ready to sing with you". I suppose my approach was more like if he was singing top of his voice in the middle of the night and it was disturbing other people, just because it's only 7pm ish doesn't make singing acceptable.
I'm mentioning this because it seems you've tried a lot of tweaking without getting anywhere and it's perhaps not just routine which is impacting.

So, WRT routine, couple of thoughts (although like I said previously, think I'm more lost than you!)
- when was the last time you did not cap the nap, how long was it and did it make any difference?
and the opposite thought
- what if you capped her nap at 30 mins one day, not as a routine change but as a one-off? YK like one of those days when the nap is unavoidably disturbed somehow and you know you have to just wing it that day and get back on track the next?

[Kellyjs]

I can definitely do that. It worked quite well last night... She tried every trick int  he book to get me to go in there. Nappy came back as did mummy, that's didn't work then started asking for daddy, water etc  . I held firm and she was asleep after 50mins. I had to wake her this morning at 6.30 and she had quite a few NW's last night.

I haven't not capped the nap in sooo long. I honestly think she might sleep the day away? The last time I let her sleep 2+ hrs is when she had a temperature and she did go to sleep a lot easier that night. but that won't be a true reflection of anything.

We do do days out occasionally which means a 30mims car nap in the car. This works as long as it's earlier rather than later iykwim. 11am ish as opposed to 3pm. Don't know if that info helps any?

Which one would you try? Xx

[creations]

Well, either is a gamble.
If her energy at BT is coming from OT rather than UT (the shorter A time to bed being the more successful BTs) then perhaps one day of a good long nap could help? Of course you risk a terrible BT but it seems you're getting those anyway.

[Kellyjs]

That's very true hun. I think we may be heading into OT territory considering the meltdowns we had today about every little thing  . I've never really had her OT before I don't think. Definitely not to this extent. Today her nap ended after an hour as she woke up sobbing. Had to sit and cuddle for around 15mins to calm her down. No bad thing... It's the longest cuddle I've had in about 18mths 

BT tonight went ok. 7.25 in bed, cut her off every time she started to say something with my teacher voice  . Didn't go too badly at all. Much better than I thought so thank you so much for that one. Sleep at 8pm  woo hoo xx

[creations]

Oh well done!
Keep on with that teacher voice then!!  35 mins isn't bad considering it always takes her 30 min to wind down to sleep anyway. Now you just need it to be 30 mins on her own being quiet instead of 30 mins of teacher voice

I think routine wise I'd let her do a long nap, even if just once, if she doesn't wake sobbing again that is.  Do what you feel though, I'm just guessing from afar

[Kellyjs]

I'll give anything a go hun. She slept really well last night. Woke on her own at 6.30, asked me to change her nappy then asked for more sleep?! I did give her the option of milk or more sleep and she chose milk of course.  Who knows?!

Will give the longer nap a try today and see if it improves her mood at least. Thanks so much for this again hun. Once again, you're my saviour!  xx

[creations]

Saviour? Ha ha! I am doing very little. You're the one dealing with the grumps and call backs

Hope you have a better day x

[Kellyjs]

Sorry ladies, I'm back 

Ok, so I've logged DD's sleep habits for the past couple of weeks and she's taking around 11-11.5hrs at absolute best in a 24hr period. ONS varies but is usually around 9hrs 45 mins up to 10hrs 15.

We did well for a little while wrt talking through the door and stopping the shouting and singing. Thanks so much creations for that. We've now been battling with NW's so really unsure why that's going on either considering every day has nearly been the same give,or take half an hour. The NW's aren't even showing a pattern so don't think we can do much about that really.

My problem is, The shouting and screaming before BT is escalating again  . I've remained consistent but tbh I'm at my wits end now. Later BT has resulted in the exact same thing too although we haven't tried this for many days in a row as my sanity couldn't take it. And her total sleep in 24 hrs has dropped significantly in the last few months. Doesn't this now put her in the LSN category? She can't really as little sleep as Heidi's DD3 can she?!!! 

So what do we think? Cut the nap back a lot more? We do wu from nap at 2.15pm at latest now irrelevant of when she went to sleep for her nap. Most days she's on 1.5hrs or 1hr 20. So sorry, I really wish I could do the later BT option suggested before. I think I would do it if it weren't for all the shouting  xx

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

If the later bedtime is not an option then capping the nap is the way to go if you think it is ut...remind me again what are the nw's like? Oh and DD3 has been lsn all along...she went to 2 naps at 4 months, 1 nap at 7.5 months and recently started the 1-0 so tbh not sure if super lsn would come on at a late stage like this (though anything is possible right?). What was she like pre 2-1 for sleep needs? (Oh and does she have her canines &/or 2 year molars yet?).

[Kellyjs]

The NW's are on and off atm. Some nights worse than others. Wakes up crying her little heart out but easily resettled. May wake up in the early part of the night around 10, or can be later. There's just no pattern to it. Some nights 4-5 NW's, others there aren't any... Then I wake up thinking I haven't heard her  .

She went ct to one nap around 10.5mo. Could handle A times higher than the average for maybe forever,but I didn't have the confidence to push it until I joined the forums.

So pre 2-1 she used to have 2 x 45 mins naps a day at around 8mo. Eventually got the A time right to get a 1.5hr nap and capped 30 nap. Pm nap refusal from 10mo or there abouts. Sleep needs went up for around 2 weeks at 1yo so was having 2.5hr nap and 12hr nights, soon dropped again to 2hr nap and 11hr night until all this rubbish began. Went a bit haywire during the 18mo SR, got back on track for a bit but it's never really been the same since. Tweaked here and there, cut the nap to 1.5hrs with an earlier wu from the nap to increase last A to BT. Settling for bed just got worse and worse until I started this thread.

She has all her canines but no sign of the 2yo molars yet. I have been checking every morning and night atm  .

[creations]

Looks like you need to cap the nap.
If she's getting 1hr 20 to 1hr 30 nap atm I wouldn't pansy around with cutting only a little like 5 mins, I'd go straight for 1hr.  Now, mine was utterly awful on a capped nap so this is not from experience, but the part that IS from experience is that if you're going to change the routine you might as well just crack on with it.  You might need to experiment a little with when she is happier for the cap, might even find that she prefers it capped at 45 mins for example rather than the hr. And you may also find she can go down a little earlier for the nap, sleep less and have longer to bed.

These call backs have gone on so long at BT it can only be UT, I'm sure.

The NWs sound developmental. She's close enough to 24months now for the birthday leap to disturb sleep just to really mess you around.
I think here around birthdays DS needs a touch longer sleep but it's disturbed rather than a bit shorter and solid.

[Kellyjs]

Thanks creations, I just think I needed someone to say it for me  . It's just got to be UT hasn't it?!

I'll play around with where the nap needs to be, cap it at an hour and see how we go. I think I feel confident enough to play around with the timings, I just think I needed the go ahead to actually cap it iykwim?

The funny thing is, when I first *met* you finally got DD to nap longer than 45mins for the first time ever, now you're telling me to only let her nap 45mins. That did make me chuckle.  x

Eta.. Might have had a breakthrough! Told her not to shout tonight as her lovey (a bunny) is already asleep and we must be quiet. One shout out, which I told her to go to sleep and remember to be quiet, and except for lots of shuffling, not a murmur!! Woo hoo