Almost 10 months old...ready for 2-1 nap transition or too early?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

What does the routine for meals look like right now? I see three E's in the op...does that mean milk and solids? If so I would for sure try adding in a snack (milk or solids) to see if that makes a difference.

[creations]

I would just increase the A time - that's me though. The naps were getting shorter and shorter on 3 hr 45 and when you increase to 4 hr she did one longer nap and now it's shortened again.  It may be messy a few days but it's already messy yk? She's either going to get OT because her naps are short or get OT because you increase the A time to look for that longer nap.
Increasing the A doesn't mean she'll necessarily drop to one nap sooner, it's just a matter of finding how to get one decent nap and one CN.

E times totally depend on what you are doing now. Can you post what she currently has? times, milk and solids.

[FroggyMom]

Well, our day was pretty much the same again today.  I stuck with the 4 hour morning A time again, and she napped 30 minutes.    She woke up from this first nap acting hungry again like yesterday.  Her afternoon nap was about 35 minutes, so we did early bed time again. 

I would just increase the A time - that's me though. The naps were getting shorter and shorter on 3 hr 45 and when you increase to 4 hr she did one longer nap and now it's shortened again.  It may be messy a few days but it's already messy yk? She's either going to get OT because her naps are short or get OT because you increase the A time to look for that longer nap.
Increasing the A doesn't mean she'll necessarily drop to one nap sooner, it's just a matter of finding how to get one decent nap and one CN.

Yes, I see what you are saying.  I do think I"m going to keep trying the 4 hour morning A time for awhile...I think it's been about 3 days now.  I really do think I've noticed in the past 2 days that our problem may lie with the food issues we have been struggling with, and she is waking up hungry.

I know I've mentioned before DD has reflux (on 2 meds for it) and dairy/soy allergy.  Our introduction to solids has been VERY slow going to say the least. At 6 months, we tried oatmeal cereal, and she had an allergic reaction to it.  Her pediatric GI advised us to skip cereals and go straight to baby food.  For the past 4 months, we have tried finding foods that her allergy/reflux can tolerate, and it has been an epic fail.  Honestly, the only things that don't aggravate her are her Elecare formula and pears.    So, she has lived mainly on this for months!  We have done trials of apples, sweet potatoes, bananas, carrots, peas, squash, etc.  They have all aggravated her reflux to varying degrees.  So, my struggle is I know she should be eating more solids, but I can't find anything to feed her!  Up until now, she has been satisfied with what we've managed to do, but now I feel she needs more and just don't know what to feed her. 

Thank you both for taking a look at her feeding schedule (I hope it's okay to bring this into this post as it's related to sleeping I believe, but let me know if I need to move it to the eating forum):

wake-up:  7:00 am
7:15 am (8-9 oz bottle)
8:45 am ( a half to 3/4 jar of pears with 1-2 oz milk to wash down)
would like her to sleep from 11-12:30 pm, but has been doing 11-11:30 and waking up hungry so gave her next bottle here past 2 days, but typically when she would nap it would be more like:
12:30 pm (8-9 oz bottle)
2 pm (a half to 3/4 jar of pears or food we are trialing at the time with 1-2 oz milk to wash down)
would like her to nap at 3:30 pm or so for CN
5:45 pm (8-9 oz bottle before bed)

As I've been looking around, I see kids her age are already eating snacks as you mentioned Heidi.  I'm panicking a bit as I can't find much she can tolerate and would have no idea what to give her for a snack!  So, I know we are behind in the eating area, but I'm just not sure how to catch her up with all of her issues.  How much are kids her age (10 months old) usually eating?  As always, thanks so much!

[creations]

OK try not to panic about the solids and try not to compare to other LOs, I know that's hard. Some LOs barely take a mouthful of solids until 9 or 10 months, just not interested, whilst others are so interested they are on three proper meals and moving to snacks too.  My nephew was still only taking milk and a kind of baby custard/porridge at around 18 months which I was led to believe was the cultural norm for where he was being brought up...when he visited me he was suddenly on whizzed lasagne and then finger foods followed by proper meals because that's my cultural norm.
What I'm saying is, if she is gaining weight and you are trailing different foods then try not to worry.

I would give her milk feed early, before nap, make sure she is full. In general the 4 hr E times for milk would be 7, 11, 3, 7 but of course there is give an take around sleep. So she gets her first milk a touch later than 7, fine, give the next milk a touch earlier than 11, in enough time for her to feed and then sleep (it would help to increase the A by 15 mins to give a little more time for that feed).
WU 7.00
E milk 7.15
E solids 8.15 (I would move this earlier to get her good and hungry for a big feed before nap)
E milk 10.45/11.00
S 11/11.15 - 12.30/45
E solids 12.45 (this may appear to be solids before milk but this is the solids coming after the 11am milk)
E milk 3.00
S 3.30 - 4.00 CN
E solids 4.00
E milk 6.30/45
BT 7.00

Are you getting support from a dietician or nutritionist for her diet/allergies/reflux flares?
Are her meds a suitable dose?
You said varying degrees of the reflux flares is there anything other than pears you have continued with or feel you can try again?
When you do the food trial are you doing it one day or several days running?
have you tried the food trials early in the day to give all day for the reflux to settle before bed to avoid night sleep disturbance as much as possible?
Is there a gluten allergy? Was there a true allergic reaction to oats? Have you been able to try anything like bread, pancakes?  Have you tried any grains recently?
Any identified allergy other than dairy and soy which you have already mentioned?
What about beans, eggs, meat, fish any trials?
What about finger foods - have you tried any of the foods as 'solid' rather than purée (the wetness of purée may not be helping)?

[FroggyMom]

OK try not to panic about the solids and try not to compare to other LOs, I know that's hard.

Thank you so much for saying that!  It does make me feel so much better!    DD has always been interested in solids and will eat what I give her....it just ends up affecting her later.    But, she is gaining weight just fine, and we are trialing different foods.

Well, yesterday I did 4 hours morning A time again, and she did 30 min morning nap again (I've lost track now but I know this is at least the 4th day in a row of this happening).  She also did 30 min afternoon nap, so I let her do a third 30 minute nap instead of early bed yesterday.  Today, I am trying the schedule that you suggested creations.  Here is our day so far:

wake-up:  7:28 am
E milk 7:36 am
E solids 8:32 am
E milk 10:40 am
S 11:46 am - currently asleep (I know this ended up being a 4 hour 18 minute A time which is longer than we have been doing.  I noticed you said it would help to add 15 min to this time to make time for this feed.  I did find I needed a bit more time as she still needs 20-30 minutes to sit up after eating due to reflux, so we shall see how it goes!!!)

Are you getting support from a dietician or nutritionist for her diet/allergies/reflux flares?
Are her meds a suitable dose?

We see a pediatric GI for her reflux/allergy.  We have not seen a dietician or a nutritionist however.  Is this something you have experience with or think would be helpful?  I believe her meds are at a suitable dose but have been wondering for sure myself and have a call into her GI doctor who wasn't in on Friday.  I am hoping to hear from him this week to check on this.

You said varying degrees of the reflux flares is there anything other than pears you have continued with or feel you can try again?
When you do the food trial are you doing it one day or several days running?
have you tried the food trials early in the day to give all day for the reflux to settle before bed to avoid night sleep disturbance as much as possible?

The pears is the only thing that causes no reflux symptoms at all.  Yes, there are other things that cause small issues with reflux, and yesterday I decided to try sweet potatoes again...so we shall see on those...

I know it is usually suggested to do one food for 3-4 days normally to be sure a baby is not allergic; however, I find I need at least a full week to do a trial with DD.  She may seem okay for a few days but have reflux flares on say day 5.  I have only been giving her solids twice a day so far, so all food trials have been either for breakfast or lunch.

Is there a gluten allergy? Was there a true allergic reaction to oats? Have you been able to try anything like bread, pancakes?  Have you tried any grains recently?
Any identified allergy other than dairy and soy which you have already mentioned?
What about beans, eggs, meat, fish any trials?

As far as I know, she does not have a gluten allergy...just a true allergy to dairy and soy..not allergic to anything else that I know of.  She had a true allergic reaction to baby oatmeal cereal.  I can't remember exactly how her doctor explained it but mentioned something about the proteins in the cereal or possibly even cross contamination with dairy/soy in the plant where the cereal was made.  I'm confused as to if the cereal she reacted to is the same as plain oats though.  I think maybe it's different, and plain oats may possibly be okay, but I'm not sure.  Other than that cereal, I have not tried anything except fruits and vegetables.  I am also concerned that she may have developed a texture aversion after eating the puree pears so long and nothing else.  I tried to give her butternut squash I baked and just mashed with a fork and she coughed and wouldn't really accept it.  This is the only time I tried something other than puree.  Do you think puree would make reflux worse?  I'm open to skipping more puree foods but not sure how to handle it if DD did develop an aversion and refuses it. 

I will be back to post how her morning nap goes....

[creations]

We have not seen a dietician or a nutritionist however.  Is this something you have experience with or think would be helpful?

I think you could ask your Paediatrician for advice on seeing one or the other (not sure which would be best). I do not have experience other than our paedi offered to refer DS on if I had problems due to his silent reflux. I didn't need additional help so we didn't go that route.
WRT the meds, certainly check with your paedi, maybe pop over to CRC too to see what a suitable dose would be for her age/weight. I'm only saying this because DS's GP got his dose horribly wrong and it was only BW advice which told me otherwise. I bypassed the GP (who got it wrong, said he was on the max he could take) called the paedi and the dose was put up, he was taking roughly one quarter what he needed, so obviously that experience has me wary of doses now.

I know it is usually suggested to do one food for 3-4 days normally to be sure a baby is not allergic; however, I find I need at least a full week to do a trial with DD.  She may seem okay for a few days but have reflux flares on say day 5. 

Just offering a different view here. If I had given my DS the same food for a week he would have been ill. I am absolutely sure the reason he managed was the variety of foods in small portions. An example, carrots make him constipated, if I had trialled carrots for even 3 or 4 days running with no other foods he would have had a terrible issue, a week would have been unthinkable.  Opposite he is fine with prunes but had he had prunes for 3 or 4 days running with nothing else he would have had outrageous diarrhoea... these two foods were extremely useful for me throughout weaning and beyond. I could naturally manage his BM through the foods I offered by loosening or firming up his poo with one of those two foods regardless of what other foods he ate.
I'm just wondering if offering the same food so many days is really helpful?  It is not a natural way to eat having just one (or two if you count the pears also) food in your diet. It may be that there are many foods which would be fine if they were balanced out with the intake of other foods.  Just a thought. I am not suggesting throwing caution to the wind as you do want to check for allergies and reactions but these days the 3 - 4 day food trial thing is rarely advised unless there are allergies in the family etc. I know you want to be cautious due the milk/soy though.
I wonder too if re-trying some of those foods would be worth while, as solid finger food rather than puree. For instance mine had a terrible reflux flare with pear but I discovered a not-too-ripe pear lightly baked or steamed was ok later on when I re-tried. Ripe juicy pear made him bad.

Can you check with your paedi about introducing grains? You can ensure they are milk/soy free. I'm just thinking that a piece of bread or a pancake, something drier and more carbsy like that could help to keep the reflux down.
I don't think you've mentioned any reason she can't try fish, meat, nuts, beans, she may do better with these.

WRT texture. Can you begin to offer pear as a finger food now? Gently steam for very few mins in wedges and they will hold their shape enough to be picked up, they are quite slippery though. Or for a drier external and a softer internal bake wedges in the oven with no moisture or oil or anything on them.
I do think puree can, in some, make reflux worse just because it's so wet.
There may not be a texture issue it could just be she doesn't like mash or mashed sweet pot, mine has always hated mash (even now at 4yo and he is not a picky eater, his texture issues go so far as mash, rice and cauliflower it is not difficult to work around such a small list).
Try not to worry about texture issues, it hasn't happened yet and may never. I would think, like any food, offering many many times and giving her the chance to explore different textures and flavours is the way forward...and any true dislike will show up (like mine not liking mash).

Hope her nap went well x

[FroggyMom]

Thank you so much for taking so much time to help me! Your suggestions have been VERY helpful! 

Hope her nap went well x

First of all, YES...it went much better yesterday for the first time in about a week!  This is what we did:

wake-up:  7:28 am
E milk 7:36 am
E solids 8:32 am
E milk 10:40 am
S 11:46 am - 1:02 pm (morning nap of 1 hr 16 min!!!!!)
E solids 1:10 pm
E milk  2:45 pm
S 4:05-4:50 pm (45 min CN...was going to wake her at 30 min but decided to give her to 45 min since sleeping well, and she woke at 45 min on her own)
E milk 6:45 pm (I haven't yet introduced a 3rd solids meal...thinking of doing soon though)
BT 8:10 pm (was in bed a bit later than usual as we were out at dinner)

She then woke up at 7:04 am this morning.  So, she had a total of 2 hr 1 min daytime sleep and 10 hr 54 min nighttime sleep...for a total of 12 hr 55 min sleep yesterday.  This seems a bit low to me for her age.  What do you think?  Although she does usually do a full 12 hour night most nights so maybe it was just an off night.

I think you could ask your Paediatrician for advice on seeing one or the other (not sure which would be best). I do not have experience other than our paedi offered to refer DS on if I had problems due to his silent reflux. I didn't need additional help so we didn't go that route.
WRT the meds, certainly check with your paedi, maybe pop over to CRC too to see what a suitable dose would be for her age/weight. I'm only saying this because DS's GP got his dose horribly wrong and it was only BW advice which told me otherwise. I bypassed the GP (who got it wrong, said he was on the max he could take) called the paedi and the dose was put up, he was taking roughly one quarter what he needed, so obviously that experience has me wary of doses now.

Goodness!  I'm glad BW advice was able to help you figure that out!  I'm certainly going to work on making sure her dose is correct today.  I may also look into finding out more about nutritionist/dietician.

I wonder too if re-trying some of those foods would be worth while, as solid finger food rather than puree. For instance mine had a terrible reflux flare with pear but I discovered a not-too-ripe pear lightly baked or steamed was ok later on when I re-tried. Ripe juicy pear made him bad.

DH has actually mentioned what you have suggested before.  He said maybe if each food was given in moderation it would be better.  I just wasn't sure as she seems to react to EVERY food.  But, maybe we will give what you are saying a go!  Yes, I was just giving the same food to her several days as her allergies already had me so worried.  But, this does really seem to be affecting her reflux.  I am also going to try baking a pear as finger food and see how she reacts to that.  Thank you for that idea! 

Can you check with your paedi about introducing grains? You can ensure they are milk/soy free. I'm just thinking that a piece of bread or a pancake, something drier and more carbsy like that could help to keep the reflux down.
I don't think you've mentioned any reason she can't try fish, meat, nuts, beans, she may do better with these.

Yes, I can definitely check on trying these.  I just haven't yet as I have not really given her finger foods.  I think I will start with the baked pear first and see what she thinks of finger foods.  If it goes well, we may try some of these.  Thank you for making me feel better about the texture aversion as well.  You are right...maybe it was just that one food and she doesn't truly have this issue.  I hope not!  I just think all of her eating/stomach issues since birth have me a little hypersensitive probably.

As far as sleeping issues, we are trying the same schedule as yesterday, so we will see how morning nap goes again in a bit....thanks so much! 

[creations]

Sounds like the routine is moving in the right direction
I wouldn’t worry about that night at this point, a one-off anything can just be a one-off.

Keep going - lets see if she can get into a nice settle routine.

So, WRT the food. I think we've covered about as much as we can (for a sleep thread ). Once you know what you can move forward with offering etc do feel free to post another thread on FSF for some more support or hand holding, or if you are looking for more ideas. x

[FroggyMom]

Sounds like the routine is moving in the right direction
I wouldn’t worry about that night at this point, a one-off anything can just be a one-off.

Yes, I do want to stick with this routine for a few days and see what happens, but today didn't go as well as yesterday. 

After a 4 hr 14 min morning awake time, she napped for 45 min.    I was hoping it would be longer than yesterday's morning nap, not shorter.  Then, she did a 38 min afternoon nap...which would be fine if her morning nap would have been longer.  I'm just not sure what is going on.  She has also been acting a lot more irritable lately.  I'm wondering if it is the reflux bothering her as well...or if I just can't get her awake/nap time right for her?!

So, WRT the food. I think we've covered about as much as we can (for a sleep thread  ). Once you know what you can move forward with offering etc do feel free to post another thread on FSF for some more support or hand holding, or if you are looking for more ideas. x

Yes, haha!  Thanks so much for talking with me about that on here.  I do really think she was waking hungry before I changed the routine.  Now, I'm not sure what to think as to what is going on.  I am going to try some of your suggestions WRT the food though...and yes, if I do need more help in that area I will make a new post on the FSF thread.  Thanks so much! 

[creations]

Has it been a few days on 4hr 15 ish now?
Maybe another increase?

[FroggyMom]

Has it been a few days on 4hr 15 ish now?
Maybe another increase?

It has only been 2 days on that A time now.  The first day she did 1 hr 16 min nap.  The second day she did 45 min nap.  How long do you usually stick with one A time to see if it lengthens out?  She seems very tired with this A time already, but I don't know.

[creations]

I'd up the A! lol
Oh, ok then, if she seems very tired then I'd do another day but go in and do a W2S on that 45 min nap.  That's what I'd try first.
Then I'd up the A. I just know what mine was like, he would look exhausted but if the A was not long enough he ended up with no sleep.

FX for you, whatever you decide to do.

[FroggyMom]

I'd up the A! lol

Haha!  Well, I'm not sure today will be a good judge as she was with my mother-in-law today instead of with me at home.  I gave her the times I wanted her to put her down.  They were close but not exactly like I would have done.

After a 4 hr 22 min A time this morning, my mother-on-law said she slept 17 min!      This is an all time low!!!   

Then, she had 3 hr 18 min A time in the afternoon and took a 41 min nap.  (which would be fine if I could figure out how to lengthen her morning nap.)

I will have her with me tomorrow, so I'm going to aim closer to 4 hr 15 min A time.  I think 4 hr 22 min was too much, but I don't know.  What do you think a 17 min nap means?  That's not even a full sleep cycle, and she's never done that.  Sigh.   

[creations]

I'd imagine OS rather than 7 mins extra A having such a huge effect.  Maybe there was just so much going on with Granny that she couldn't sleep?

[FroggyMom]

I'd imagine OS rather than 7 mins extra A having such a huge effect.  Maybe there was just so much going on with Granny that she couldn't sleep?

You could be right.  I thought 17 minutes was an odd length for a nap, but since I wasn't there I'm not sure what exactly happened.  But, I decided to stick with the 4 hr 15 ish minute A time again yesterday.  Also, I had a doctor's appointment during her morning nap time today, so she was with my mother-in-law again.  As I had tried 4 days of the 4 hour 15ish minute A time, I tried having her change it to 4 hr 20 minutes today.  These were our past few days for morning nap:

Sunday: 4 hr 18 min A time for a 1 hr 16 min nap
Monday: 4 hr 14 min A time for a 45 min nap
Tuesday: 4 hr 22 min A time for a 17 min nap (with mother-in-law)
Wednesday: 4 hr 14 min A time...she slept for 30 minutes and then woke up crying.  I went it to give back her paci and pat her.  Then, I went out as she wasn't crying and likes to settle alone.  It took her 22 minutes, but she went back to sleep for another 1 hr 27 minutes.  This was the longest nap she has done in quite some time it feels like!)
Thursday:  4 hr 21 min A time for a 29 min nap (with mother-in-law)

What do you think these times/naps look like?  Does it look like OT or UT?  If you still think I should increase A time, how much would you increase it by?

I've been aiming for a long morning nap/afternoon catnap as I thought that would work best for her.  Even when she does a short 30 min morning nap, she usually doesn't nap more than 45 min for afternoon nap.  However, today was different.  After a 29 minute morning nap, she was awake for 3 hours, and then took a 1.5 hour nap! (I actually had to wake her so she would have enough A time before bed!)  I just can't figure this LO out....haha!  So, would you stick with working on lengthening the morning nap?  Is she trying to tell me she wants a longer afternoon nap (or maybe this was a one-off thing today...who knows?!)

I can't seem to figure out her morning A time, but I have figured out she seems to like a 3 hour A time before bed at least.  As I was having a look around the Internet I noticed a lot of websites saying that 3 hours is a common A time for 10 month olds; however, I thought it was higher.  Am I trying too long for morning A time?  Too short?  Sigh.