Almost 10 months old...ready for 2-1 nap transition or too early?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

According to this average is 3-4 hrs A time: Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

I wonder with that 17 min nap if she was OS from time with Grandma and fell asleep but woke at the jolt time (my kids had that little jolt until toddler hood - in fact I still jolt awake after falling asleep some nights - it is not as pronounced as when they were infants but would be enough to disturb them if they were OS/OT).

Hard to say which is best really, I guess if she keeps doing a short am nap you have no choice but to try to work to lengthen the pm nap. Or perhaps two shorter naps will help her get by until she is ready for the 2-1.

[creations]

It sounds like a lot of developmental stuff to me.
Is she starting to pull up to standing? Recognising more words? Pointing to things when you say their name? building block towers?
This is a prime time for big developments and as a result sleep goes off track - and then it's also the beginning of the 2-1 so sleep goes off track. Babies will just insist on mixing it up so that we have no idea whether to stick with a routine and ride it out or keep tweaking in the hopes one of those times will start to make sense.
Teething? Just another thing to add to the mix.

The baby sleep site says this phase lasts 3 to 6 weeks - 6 weeks feels like for ever!

As you've been pretty consistent with the morning A times but nap lengths have been inconsistent I would probably put this down to more development than timing.  I mean, yes it 'could' be that upping the A again could be the solution but her A time then would be significantly higher than guidance. My DS's first A was always higher than guidance times and I was fine with that as I knew it's what he needed but I'm cautious to recommend increasing again when you are not getting clear cut signs on those nap times (ie it is not a regular 30 or 40 or 45 min nap, neither is it a regular 20 min yk?).
So, it is an option to try but I suppose it comes with a caution - my own approach to things like this were kind of "it's already bad so it can't get much worse let's give it a shot". If you do increase I suggest being in there to help her through the transitions including 20 min OT jolts, she likes to self settle so I'd PD for nap, let her go to sleep then go back in and spend the whole nap time in there ready to give support.

The other option I can see is to aim instead for the shorter first nap and longer second nap. This is something you mentioned at the start of the thread and again here so perhaps you have a mummy's instinct about it?
If so, I would pull back on the first A time, reduce it so she isn't so tired and can cope on a CN. Getting just a CN here may actually help her take a longer afternoon nap with more consistency.

What do you think?

As a side note, this developmental phase *will* pass and when it does it may be easier to work out a suitable routine.  I think it's been about 2 weeks now that she's been off track, is that right? So it could be that she comes through it in 1 more week, or it could be another 3 - 4 weeks.  Not a great prospect I realise but even another 4 weeks is actually not long in the scheme of things, it feels incredibly long when you're living it though.

[FroggyMom]

Heidi, thanks so much for finding that A time bookmark for me!  I'm used to higher sleep needs as DS has always been higher sleep needs, but I'm thinking maybe DD is a lower sleep needs baby.  I'm not sure.  It seems she needs closer to 4 hours or more in the morning but less A time in the afternoon and before bed maybe.  That's interesting about the jolt.  I remember reading about this now that you mention it but had forgotten.  Yes, that 17 min nap was a one-time thing so I'm not reading too much into that one. 

I wanted to give you guys an update on the past few days.  I still haven't quite figured out what is going to work best for DD (as she keeps mixing it up on me...haha!), but we have been getting by okay at least.  On Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, she took about a 30-40 min morning nap and a longer afternoon nap (between about 1 hr 10 min - 1 hr 25 min or so).  This was of her own doing.  I did not cap the morning nap at all.  I thought maybe 4 hr 15 min was too long of an A time, so on Friday I dropped back to 3 hr 45 min.  After 30 min she woke up just happy to play in her bed...so would this mean UT again?  I thought maybe UT and needed to go back up again on A time.  I don't know though.

Then, Sunday we were out at church, and she ended up with 4 hr 12 min morning awake time again and to my surprise napped about 1 hr 20 minutes or so in the morning.  This was first time did a longer morning in awhile.  Then, she did a 30 min afternoon nap. 

Today, I did about same awake time again, and she did 30 min morning nap.  She seemed as if she would re-settle but never did go back to sleep.  She is having her second nap now, so we will see...

It sounds like a lot of developmental stuff to me.
Is she starting to pull up to standing? Recognising more words? Pointing to things when you say their name? building block towers?
This is a prime time for big developments and as a result sleep goes off track - and then it's also the beginning of the 2-1 so sleep goes off track. Babies will just insist on mixing it up so that we have no idea whether to stick with a routine and ride it out or keep tweaking in the hopes one of those times will start to make sense.
Teething? Just another thing to add to the mix.

This has given me something to think about.  I know sleep can go off track during developmental times but as she's been somewhat crawling for a few weeks now I didn't think of this when sleep became disturbed again.  But, she is starting to get her knees up more and crawl better.  She is not really pulling up to standing yet but has done it when I was nearby to assist once.  She has started to clap at things, familiar music, etc.  I don't think she's teething at the moment though.  You are right...I still haven't figured out whether to keep tweaking or just ride this one out.  I've taken the ride this one out approach the past few days though...haha!  And you're so right....6 weeks does feel like FOREVER!!!  Yes, it's been about 2-2.5 weeks that she has been off track now I believe.

I know you both mentioned the shorter AM nap/longer PM nap again.  I really wanted to do the longer AM nap/shorter PM nap; however, DD may not agree with me...haha!  I'm still hoping for that as I ride out this phase she seems to be going through.  As you've mentioned, I think I'm going to wait out the phase a bit more and then try to figure out a more set routine.  However, if it does become increasingly clear she prefers a short morning nap/longer PM nap, what would you suggest for morning A time.  Her days most commonly look like this now:

7:00 am wake-up
E
A 4 hr 10 minutes
E
S 30 minute AM nap (11:10 - 11:40 am)
E
A 3 hours
S 1 hour 20 minute nap (2:40-4 pm)
E
A 3 hours
S bedtime at 7 pm

Thanks so much for all of your continued help! 

[FroggyMom]

I just had a look at the average sleep needs sticky.  It looks like for her age it says 2 naps of 1.5 hours each and 11-12 hours at night for a total of 14-17 hours.  DD has always been on the lower end of the range.  On a typical day, she only gets a little less than 2 hours daytime sleep and 11-12 at night.  So MAYBE 14 hours total on a good day and 13 hours or so on a bad day.  Does this sound close enough to normal?

[creations]

Then, Sunday we were out at church, and she ended up with 4 hr 12 min morning awake time again and to my surprise napped about 1 hr 20 minutes or so in the morning.  This was first time did a longer morning in awhile.

Maybe the level of stimulation was higher as you were out at church?  That could make her more tired for the nap and help her sleep longer where as another day on the same A time she may have had less stimulation so slept a shorter nap.

If you want the long morning nap I would just focus on increasing that first A time to maintain the longer nap.  If you go to quite a long first A time and a long nap there can still be enough time in the day for a CN. For instance a LO on a 5hr A time and 2hr nap it could look like there is no time for a CN (5hr A + 2hr nap + 5hr A = 12hr day and 12hr night) however a 5hr first A doesn't always mean a 5hr second A time.  It could be 5A + 1.5 nap + 3A + 0.5CN + 2to3A = 12 to 13hr day and 11 to 12hr night.  it really depends on what suits her and for how long.

 

the average sleep needs sticky.  It looks like for her age it says 2 naps of 1.5 hours each and 11-12 hours at night for a total of 14-17 hours.

Mine only ever did 10.5 to 11hr night and only did a 12 hr night for short periods during a nap drop. He had super long first A times and looked low sleep needs however he dropped his last nap at just over 2.5yo which is 6 months later than many kids I know (although it's a year or more earlier than other LOs) and was doing solid 12hr nights until 4yo+ I've only just reduced his night to 11hr 45. This makes him look higher sleep needs as many 4yos are getting  much less than 12hrs per night.
The range of 'normal' seems vast and really you won't care what 'normal' is once you are on a settled routine because your DD will be well rested and you will have a relatively predictable day.  Most of us only really care about 'normal' when things are not going too well. ykwim?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I agree, church was probably more stimulating hence the longer nap, we generally get better sleep on the busy busy days!

The average A times are useful as a guide but tbh creations is right, once you find what works for you it won't matter. I paid way too much attention to them when DD3 was tiny, until one day it just wasn't working and I clued in that she was low sleep needs. She was doing 5-6 hour A by the time she was one and now we are probably going to drop her nap soon! I think she may actually need less sleep than her older sisters, which is kind of scary!

[FroggyMom]

Maybe the level of stimulation was higher as you were out at church?  That could make her more tired for the nap and help her sleep longer where as another day on the same A time she may have had less stimulation so slept a shorter nap.

Yes, this makes sense.  I wondered that myself.

The average A times are useful as a guide but tbh creations is right, once you find what works for you it won't matter.

I agree with this as well!  I just wish I could figure out what works for DD.  Sigh.

I can't be on long so can write more later, but I did want to get some more advice.  I'm just at a loss of what to do.  She had been doing a short AM nap/longer PM nap on her own no matter how hard I tried to get her to do a longer AM nap.  However, yesterday after a 3 hr 42 min A time, she did a 42 min morning nap.  Then, after a 3 hour A time, she only napped 35 minutes.    Even though I want the long AM nap, I'm not able to get that working right now.  I at least need her to take one good nap.  So, if I want to try aiming for the longer PM for awhile, how long A time would you suggest in the morning and in the afternoon to try to get her to lengthen the PM nap?

[creations]

YK, yesterday I had a look through some of my old posts.  I was reminded of a few things I'd forgotten. I knew we always had a long morning nap, but had forgotten that I had a thread very similar to this saying he seems to be switching and doing a longer afternoon nap, that I'd prefer the long morning nap but would switch to long afternoon if that's what was better for him...sounds just like you right?
At 9 months we had 3.5hr A, then the 2-1 started and we shifted to 4hr A, then at 10 months 4.5hr first A time and 3hr 45 second A time.  I think we could have been on target but he then became very poorly. Hospital for 4 days and much longer to fully recover. During this I reduced back to 4hrs... recovery took a while as did the nap drop but by 12 months he was on 5hrs A and just one nap.

Have the increases been working up to now? If you feel they have then I'd up the A again.
Thing is though you have two mods here who had LOs on very long A times so we are not scared of them
I fear far more UT, it was my living hell.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yes UT is my biggest worry too!! OT I can handle (and frankly my kids have all handled it well) but UT makes things a million times worse. How was her night after the two short naps? How is she in the morning when it is getting close to the 3 hr 45 min A time? Acting tired or could you push even more?

[FroggyMom]

YK, yesterday I had a look through some of my old posts.  I was reminded of a few things I'd forgotten. I knew we always had a long morning nap, but had forgotten that I had a thread very similar to this saying he seems to be switching and doing a longer afternoon nap, that I'd prefer the long morning nap but would switch to long afternoon if that's what was better for him...sounds just like you right?

Yes!  This is exactly like me!  Your awake times sound similar to mine as well.  By the way, so sorry to hear that your DS was so ill during that time as well. 

Have the increases been working up to now? If you feel they have then I'd up the A again.
Thing is though you have two mods here who had LOs on very long A times so we are not scared of them
I fear far more UT, it was my living hell.

Up until the past 3 weeks or so, yes, the increases had been working.  It's funny you said your DS was on 4.5 hours at 10 months.  The day before I read your post, I had actually tried DD on 4.5 hours A time.  I thought this may be too long, but I didn't know what else to try...and she slept 1 hr 20 min for the first time in forever!!!!  The next day after 4.5 morning A time, she did 1 hr 10 min.  Today, after 4.5 morning A time she did 1 hour 5 minutes.  I'm not sure what to think.  The first day I thought this was for sure the answer, and DD must just be low sleep needs.  I think I mentioned before that DS (who is 5) is high sleep needs and still naps maybe 3 days out of the week, so low sleep needs is new to me.  But, we have done 4.5 hours A time for 3 days now, and it seems to be decreasing everyday.  One thing I do need to mention though is that yesterday she started having an allergic reaction to either mangos or avocados (skin rash, some spit up, irritable)...so this may be playing into the past few days as well.  What do you think? 

es UT is my biggest worry too!! OT I can handle (and frankly my kids have all handled it well) but UT makes things a million times worse. How was her night after the two short naps? How is she in the morning when it is getting close to the 3 hr 45 min A time? Acting tired or could you push even more?

I'm starting to agree with you ladies!  For the longest time, I worried about DD being UT.  Now, I see what you mean.  I now agree that OT is much easier to deal with...and DD does handle it well also.  It's funny because she could have a great nap day or a terrible nap day, but she is always a great night sleeper (11-12 hours a night...commonly 11.5 hours) as long as she is in bed by 7:30 pm.  If she is up until 8 pm or later, she gets up earlier and does less night sleep.  I definitely think 3 hr 45 min is not enough A time for her.  However, when the past 3 days that I've done 4.5 hours A time, I've had to really push her.  She starts getting whiny and tired by 4 hours.  I almost felt bad keeping her up and pushing her but thought I'd do it for a few days and see.  What do you guys think?  If she is hard to push to 4.5 hours, should I let her go to sleep earlier?  Or persist with the 4.5 hours for a few days?

[creations]

YK, I haven't looked at the sample EASYs for a while but I seem to remember some of the samples having 2 naps shorter than I would expect for a settled routine.  I'm just wondering if we are chasing a long restorative nap when she can manage on 2 shorter naps.  What do you think? Does her mood indicate she needs a long nap or is she ok on shorter?
Think I'll just go an look at them again.

chronological EASY samples, 10-12 months
See sample no.2  at 10 months A ranges from 2hr 30 to 4hr 30
and
See sample no.3 at 10 months the A ranges from 3hr 30 to 4hr 30 but naps are 1 of 45 min and 1 of 1hr to 1.5hr
So really it doesn't seem unusual for there to be shorter naps.

[FroggyMom]

Thanks for pointing out the shorter naps in the sample EASY routines.  I have gone through those samples so many times and somehow never noticed that.  That does make me feel better.

I'm just wondering if we are chasing a long restorative nap when she can manage on 2 shorter naps.  What do you think? Does her mood indicate she needs a long nap or is she ok on shorter?

YK, I really thought about this when I read it, and I believe you could be right.  I am totally chasing a longer restorative nap because I thought a nap needed to be at least 1.5 hours to be restorative.  But, generally DD has been taking a 1 hr 15-20 min morning nap after a 4.5 morning A time (today is day 5 of this new, increased A time) and a 30-45 minute afternoon nap.  In the event that she doesn't nap well in the morning for whatever reason (like today she did a 30 minute nap when she was with my mother-in-law this morning and refused to go back to sleep), she usually naps longer in the afternoon (did a 1 hr 23 minute nap at home this afternoon).  Honestly, I think her mood indicates that she is able to manage and okay when she gets at least 1 hr 15-20 min for one nap and 30-45 for the other.  I just didn't think it was enough....but maybe it is.  She does sleep well at night too.  So, I think my plan for now is to stick with the 4.5 morning A time aiming for the morning nap to be the longer one.  However, when she will only do a shorter nap in morning, I will hope for a longer afternoon nap that day.  Maybe this will help get us closer to dropping to 1 nap as that comes up.  What do you think?

[creations]

Sounds like a good plan!!
In fact she sounds very adaptable being able to cope with either the long am or long pm depending on what activities she has on that day - I bet she likes being awake with MIL to get the play time hey?
Mine wouldn't have been able to cope with chopping and changing like that and I also liked the predictability of every day being the same but you know what, this kind of flexibility really can be a blessing, it means you can go out and about or have visitors at different times of day - something many would be envious of!

How about see how the next week goes - with your new, more relaxed approach of accepting these 1hr 20 and 30-45 min naps, and update in a week or so...or sooner if things go haywire?
I would continue to log your EAS times and a note on her mood to see if anything starts to form a pattern, esp if she starts to get grumpy.

[FroggyMom]

Well, it has been a little more than a week and a half I believe since I've been trying to take the more relaxing approach and accept 1 hr 15-20 min nap and a 30-45 min nap from DD.  In the beginning, things were going okay, and we were muddling through.  However, in the past few days, I'm feeling like things need to be tweaked again possibly.

n fact she sounds very adaptable being able to cope with either the long am or long pm depending on what activities she has on that day - I bet she likes being awake with MIL to get the play time hey?
Mine wouldn't have been able to cope with chopping and changing like that and I also liked the predictability of every day being the same but you know what, this kind of flexibility really can be a blessing, it means you can go out and about or have visitors at different times of day - something many would be envious of!

Yes, one thing I have decided is to try not to put too much stock in nap times on the days she is with MIL because it really is so different.  She does love her play time there!    Yes, I can see how the flexibility is a blessing, but I also sound a lot like you...I love predictability and routine...haha! 

Well, as I said things were going along okay with a 4.5 hour morning awake time and about 3-3.5 hours afternoon awake time.  Then, one day she was about 10 minutes late for nap (making a 4 hour 40 min) morning awake time and napped for 1 hr 45 min or so!!!  This was the longest nap she had taken in ages, so I took it to mean maybe I should increase morning awake time by 10 min (looking back maybe I should not have done this....I don't know).  So, we have been doing 4 h4 40 min morning A for awhile now.  At first, she was doing the 1 hr 15-20 min nap pretty well on this time.  Then, as usual, it has started to decrease again to maybe an hour to 1 hr 5 minutes or so most mornings.  Then yesterday was a rough day.  I had a hard time settling her to sleep (which NEVER happens as she falls asleep independently) for morning nap.  Then, she slept 38 minutes and woke.  It took me 12 minutes to get her back to sleep, and she slept another 41 minutes.  Then, in the afternoon, she slept about 37 minutes I believe.  These longer awake times are also causing me to have to let her stay up past 7:30 pm (fell asleep at 8:10 pm last night), and she doesn't sleep as well when she stays up longer.  She woke at 6:45 am this morning.  This is a little over 10.5 hour night, and she typically does 11-11.5 hours.  So, I'm just starting to worry again that she is not getting enough total sleep.

Sigh.  I'm just not sure what to do at this point.  I know we talked and 3-4 hours is a common A time for her age, but since she appears low sleep needs it seemed I should push past 4 hours to get the longer nap.  Now, I'm not sure if I should back down on awake time again, hold at 4 hr 40 minutes, increase?  I'm finding it hard to fit in all of this time and get her to bed by 7:30 pm.  Do you have any suggestions at this point?

[FroggyMom]

I also wanted to add that DD will be 11 months old this week as well.