Almost 10 months old...ready for 2-1 nap transition or too early?

[creations]

What about just trying the 4hr 30 again for a few days - see if there is big resistance or if she naps better.

It does get hard to fit it all in and you may need to cap the CN or move BT later for a little while.

[FroggyMom]

So, DD always keeps me guessing...haha!  Right after I made my last post, DD slept for a 2 hour morning nap after a 4 hr 40 min awake time!  I couldn't believe it as she hasn't napped that long in ages!!!  I then capped her PM nap at 30 minutes.  I was so excited we had a great nap day, but then she had NWs that night...and she NEVER does that.  She was up off and on for about 1.5 hours. As I've decided that she is low sleep needs, I thought maybe it was because she actually had too much daytime sleep.

However, yesterday after a 4 hr 40 min awake time, she only napped 41 minutes.  She then did a 38 minutes PM nap.  Then, last night she was up for 2 hours!     It was worse than the night before.  She has also just cut two teeth...so the first night I thought it was from teething.  However, from what I noticed last night, I believe it may be due to separation anxiety.  She quiets down when I come in room and pat her back a minute.  However, as soon as I go to leave, she cries again.  I sat by her crib a long time while she lay quietly, but every time I tried to go she cried again.  DH tried as well, and she did a bit better with him leaving...but it still took him awhile as well.  I also noticed this to a lesser degree at nap time yesterday and today.  I have always just laid her in her crib, given paci, pat back and said a sleepy phrase and walked out....and she has always gone to sleep in 10 minutes or less independently.  She has also made me come back a few times at nap as well....although the NWs are much worse.

Is 11 months a common time for separation anxiety to appear?  Would it be only at nap/bedtime?  How do I approach these NWs without starting any new bad habits because I want her to continue to be an independent sleeper?  I also posted these questions about NWs on the NW board.

What about just trying the 4hr 30 again for a few days - see if there is big resistance or if she naps better.

It does get hard to fit it all in and you may need to cap the CN or move BT later for a little while.

Just as I was set to go back to 4 hr 30 min, she did the 2 hour nap that day....so I'm confused and not sure where to go from here with these NWs cropping up now as well.  What do you think?  Also, I always feel bad waking her, but I think capping the CN is a better option for DD than moving BT too late because when she gets to bed past 8 pm or so she just wakes earlier in the morning and doesn't get as much night time sleep.  I know we usually aim for a 12 hours day, but it's so hard to fit everything in during the 2-1 nap transition.  How many hours in DD's day is too long?  Thanks so much!

[creations]

I would just respond to the call backs the way you are and not worry too much about it. It's a bit of a drag for you but it will pass. If she is teething this can bring on SA. Imagine being poorly and just feeling better because the one you love is near you, holding your hand. Once the teething has passed she'll probably be fine again without any need for breaking habits. I find mine always returns to independence the moment he can (and tells me to leave the room!).

Some don't respond well to capped nap and it works out easier and smoother all around to allow the night to go shorter. yes it means a longer day but if they are well rested that's more important than if the night was a bit shorter because of a longer nap.
If she responds well to a capped nap though you will be able to continue with that and preserve BT and the longer night.

Hope the teething passes soon (I hate teething!)

[FroggyMom]

So, we have just been continuing to ride out the 2-1 nap transition for the past few weeks, but now I'm unsure where to go from here again. 

Once the teething has passed she'll probably be fine again without any need for breaking habits. I find mine always returns to independence the moment he can (and tells me to leave the room!).

I did find this to be true.  DD only woke and cried for awhile during the night 2 or 3 nights in a row.  Then, she went right back to sleeping independently.  This may have been due to teething or SA as we discussed.

DD will be 12 months old in just under 2 weeks now!  I can't believe how fast time has flown!  We had been going alone okay for awhile with a 4 hr 40 min morning awake time producing 1 hr 15 - 1 hr 30 min or so morning nap.  Then, doing about a 30-40 minute afternoon nap.  However, we went on vacation for a few days where of course we could not exactly stay on routine.  She did end up staying up longer than usual and making it on 1 nap for one or two days.  She did okay with this and continued to sleep fine at night.  However, I put her back on her normal routine once back it home.  It was okay at first but now has gone wonky again!

She has had 2 days lately where she refused her PM catnap.  However, one day was when she was at my mother-in-laws house, and the other she had a BM when trying to get to sleep and that always messes up her naps!  So, I chalked these up to things out of the ordinary.  However, this weekend was pretty rough as far as naps go!  On Saturday, she fussed and refused at all nap times and was hard to get to sleep for BT as well!  She did fall asleep for 5-10 min in the car about 1.5 hours before BT, and I know this always causes her not to nap either because she thinks that was her nap...haha!  So, I don't know if there has just been a series of unfortunate events and I should try to stick with the 2 naps still....or is she trying to tell me she is ready for 1 nap now?  I just wasn't sure if she was still young for 1 nap yet.

I did decide to try a 5 hour morning awake time today and see.  She did fall right asleep in under 5 minutes with no fussing, so that was much better!  However, she only slept 1 hr 23 min....which would be great if she was doing the PM catnap still but I'm finding it hard to fit all of that in when I have to now stretch the afternoon awake time longer than 3 hours (she used to accept a 30-40 min CN after 3 hours) to fit it in.  Doesn't she need to do more like a 2 hour nap to be on 1 nap?  Is she old enough to handle 1 nap yet?  Or do I keep struggling with the 2 naps?

She has been waking around 7:30-8 am every morning.  So, today she napped from 12:40 pm - 2:03 pm.  So, it would be 5:30 or so before I could probably get her to take a CN.  So, if up at 6 pm, she may not accept BT until 9 pm, which I'd rather her not have a BT that late.  But, I just don't know how to stretch the one longer nap.  Where do you think I should go at this point?  I hope this makes sense as I feel I'm rambling now...haha...thanks again! 

[creations]

Ramble away It's all important information.

She did fall asleep for 5-10 min in the car about 1.5 hours before BT, and I know this always causes her not to nap either because she thinks that was her nap.

I remember mine doing this!

The age of dropping to one nap really does vary. Mine dropped to one nap at 11/12 months, some do it earlier, some later.  It really does depend on what she accepts and what she refuses as there is only so much you can do with good sleep habits and the rest is up to her.
The options are
- try to extend the nap. Either with the same A time or a slightly longer one you can go in a do a W2S to try to get the nap to more like 2hrs. There can be a certain amount of 'teaching' her to stay asleep for the one nap.
- continue the CN and have a late BT as you've said. you can also cap the CN to 20, 10 even 5 mins as you go along to try to preserve BT and not get too late (if you try for the CN and she refuses I would do EBT ASAP basically give up on the nap get her fed and start BT routine almost immediately)
- if the CN is refused or if the timings of the day allow it, you can do one nap and then EBT. You are looking at 3hr+ to get her to take a nap, so she can probably handle 3.5hr I guess. With a 5hr A, 1.5hr nap and 3.5hr A you get through 10 hrs of the day. You could do EBT and see if she will tack on her sleep. Some do 13 or 14hr nights when they drop a nap.
- you can do a mix of 1 and 2 nap days depending on WU time.

FWIW when mine dropped to 1 nap he was so OT he woke every 20 mins through his nap. He refused 2 naps so 1 was my only option but instead of his lovely 2hr nap he'd always had he went to 20 mins. I used W2S every 20 mins to keep him asleep. Before I started using it there was a LOT of crying and I had to stay with him a long time to make him go back to sleep as he was insistent his nap was finished but no way could he live on 20 mins nap.  Our 2-1 was not smooth at all...so to me it sounds like you are doing really well
There may be some rough patches ahead but throughout it all remind yourself you will get through and this will eventually pass.
I would try the W2S on the nap because a longer nap would help get through the day.

[FroggyMom]

Ramble away  It's all important information.

Haha, thanks so much for all of your help! 

Well, DD has just been so unpredictable the past few days..haha!  I would like to just get to the 1 longer nap now I think as we are having such a hard time taking a timely CN!  First, let me describe our past 2 days:

Yesterday:
7:35 am wake-up
12:37-2:23 pm (did  a 1 hr 46 min nap after a 5 hour awake time!)
She was at mother-in-laws for awhile, and I had to take DS to swim lessons...so we were a bit later than I'd like for BT, but attempted 1 nap today since she was closer to 2 hours)
7:47 pm She was in bed earlier but took about 20 minutes to fall asleep.  I thought she would fall right asleep.

Today:
7:55 wake-up
1:06-2:12 pm (I thought she would go right to sleep when put her in bed at 5 hours awake time like yesterday, but she took about 12 minutes to get to sleep at 1:06 pm.  Then, she only slept 1 hr 6 min    I stayed in her room with her for 30 min laying her back down in her crib while she fussed off and on to try to get her back to sleep, but she just would not have it...so let her up.)
5:15 pm (started attempting a late CN...she was in her crib quietly so let her try to put herself to sleep for awhile.  Of course, right as I fixed her bottle and was going to give up on CN and do EBT...she fell asleep!)
5:54 pm - 6:14 pm  I wasn't sure what to cap this nap at since SO late....so I decided to try 20 minutes.

Now, I'm not sure when to feed and try BT.  She had her last bottle at 3 pm and solids at 4 pm.  I can't remember what time zone you are in so you may not see this in time....and that's okay if not. 

I'm wondering why yesterday she went right to sleep after a 5 hour awake time and did a better nap but did not today.  Do you think I should stick with 5 hours?  Is it too long?  I just really feel like she only wants to do one nap, but I could be wrong. 

Also, I have read how to do W2S but have always been afraid to try it and wake her up and make nap time worse.  I know you are supposed to go in when before they usually wake up.  But, DD is so variable.  She sometimes wakes after 40-45 minutes...sometimes an hour...sometimes not at all...etc.  So, how would I go about doing W2S because I think I really do want to try the first option that you suggested and work on extending the 1 nap.  Be back later when have more time!  Thanks! 

[FroggyMom]

Well, I ended up doing a 20 minute capped CN (woke her at 6:14 pm), fed bottle at 7 pm and wanted to have her asleep by 8 pm.  However, it took her about 40 minutes to fall asleep at 8:30 pm.  I was afraid that late CN would do that.  She wasn't fussing or anything...just lying quietly in bed but couldn't fall asleep for awhile.  Then, she woke at 8:05 am this morning (so a 11 hr 35 min night).  She has always been one that if she doesn't get to bed on time, she doesn't sleep as long at night.  This may be okay if she was making up for it in day time sleep, but she's not.  She is one that usually makes up for her lack of day time sleep at night (she did tack on some sleep by doing a 12.5 hour the other night after a nap of 1 hr 23 min during the day)...but only if she is asleep by 7:30 or 8 pm at the latest.

Our 2-1 was not smooth at all...so to me it sounds like you are doing really well

Wow, W2S every 20 minutes does sound difficult!  But, it does give me hope that we too will make it through this transition! 

So, given that she doesn't do well with a late BT, would you still suggest W2S to try to extend nap?  What would that look like exactly?  Thanks again!

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there. Creations is having a hard time getting online, so just popping in with some support for you. I read through a bit and your transition seems very similar to ours. We started on the 2-1 path in January but we were only firmly on 1 nap in May.
The steps were --
1) Long am nap but pm capped to 30 mins WITH EBT 1.5 hours later.
2) As A's lengthened, we went through a phase where if nap ended 2/2.30, I would give the CN a miss and go for EBT, at even 5.30. We got beautiful 13-14 hour nights here
3) Did 3 days of BT at 5.30 in a row, resulting in DD having an EW at 6 one day. Got her up as it had been a long enough night. Cue the long stream of EWs, which we are still dealing with. I think I threw her body clock out of whack. I'm mentioning this so that you don't make the same mistake:)
4) Decide to stick to a fixed BT of 7pm as EBT was just giving us more EWs but with 12 hour nights, so no chance of a resettle. So, if nap ended by 2/2.30, I would go straight for a 7pm BT. If nap ended earlier, I would do a 10 minute CN in the sling and then go straight for BT routine.
5) She stopped going to sleep easily after the CN. It seemed to energize her too much, so we just said that's it. Only 1 nap from now on, no matter what the length, and that's how we reached where we are now.

Hope that helps. This really is a tricky transition. You do have to ride out the OT, extend A quickly when naps drop (we only push 5 minutes at a time and it seems to be enough) and play with timings.

[FroggyMom]

Hi there. Creations is having a hard time getting online, so just popping in with some support for you.

Thanks so much for letting me know this and for your vey helpful advice! 

Yes, your 2-1 journey does sounds very similar to ours.  We have been working on the transition for about 2 months so far I believe.  We also did the longer AM nap and PM nap capped to 30 minutes, but DD wouldn't accept an EBT after that.  She needed to be awake for at least 3 hours to easily go to bed.  We are now in the phase of just doing 1 nap for the past few days because even when I try to get her to do a CN she usually will not.  However, she is not doing a 2 hour nap, which I would like her to if we are going to just go to one nap now.  The best she has done is 1.5 hours; however, she usually does more like 1 hr 10 minutes.  If she does a 12.5-13 hour night after that, do you think that's enough to make up for a shorter nap...or do you think I should keep after the CN?

Thank you for mentioned what happened when you tried several days of EBT...I have always been afraid to put DD to bed too early!  Hope your EWs are getting better!    You mentioned you just do one nap now...no matter the length.  How old is your LO and what is nap length usually?

Also, creations suggested I use W2S to try to lengthen the one nap.  I have read how to do W2S but have always been afraid to try it and wake her up and make nap time worse.  I know you are supposed to go in when before they usually wake up.  But, DD is so variable.  She sometimes wakes after 40-45 minutes...sometimes an hour...sometimes not at all...etc.  So, how would I go about doing W2S if I wanted to try that?  Thanks! 

[newkidontheblock]

We also did the longer AM nap and PM nap capped to 30 minutes, but DD wouldn't accept an EBT after that.  She needed to be awake for at least 3 hours to easily go to bed. 

I think that is because you are doing this at a much later age than us:) This would make the day unnecessarily long. How about capping it to 10 minutes and pulling BT forward?

We are now in the phase of just doing 1 nap for the past few days because even when I try to get her to do a CN she usually will not.  However, she is not doing a 2 hour nap, which I would like her to if we are going to just go to one nap now.  The best she has done is 1.5 hours; however, she usually does more like 1 hr 10 minutes.  If she does a 12.5-13 hour night after that, do you think that's enough to make up for a shorter nap...or do you think I should keep after the CN?

I'm no expert on this but I do feel that with 1 nap, that sort of length would be indicative of OT. What A time are you on at the moment? If it OT, consistent naps and night sleeps should sort it out. Otherwise you can add 5 minutes to your A and see if makes a difference. You can slowly keep adding until the nap hopefully lengthens out. WDYT? I feel that it is more about enough day sleep for day length yk? So less day sleep = shorten day to compensate. The CN is just lengthening your day instead.

Thank you for mentioned what happened when you tried several days of EBT...I have always been afraid to put DD to bed too early!  Hope your EWs are getting better!    You mentioned you just do one nap now...no matter the length.  How old is your LO and what is nap length usually?

It wasn't just EBT, it was a super early bedtime of 5.30 after 2/3 hours of day sleep. So she was getting around 16/17 hours of sleep totally, which was waaay too much for her. And after 3 days of this, she woke up refreshed at 6 am:p
So right now, E is nearly 14 months and has been firmly on 1 nap for 2 months now. Before that, to deal with EWs, I would do a quick 10 minute CN so as to keep BT at 7pm. Then we went on vacation and she refused the CN a couple of times and had a decent night anyway (besides the pesky EW) So I decided to just drop it CT. If she does a short nap, que sera. I am just done with going mental over her sleep. Life is too short, and I have too much white hair from the first year:p:p:p Right now we're at a point where I am capping her nap at 2.30 latest, so that she goes to sleep properly at BT. She usually naps for 2 hours, sometimes a lot more. But of course we get the shorter naps here and there. When naps shorten, we add 5 minutes and that's enough.

I'm afraid I can't help much with W2S as I never used it with DD. We did go through a phase where we would be in the room at the time she generally woke and pat her back to sleep. Nowadays DH goes in, holds for a bit and she sleeps off. But with her, A times are the main thing. She is very clock oriented

Xx

[creations]

Sorry I'm not around and thanks NKOTB for stepping in - much appreciated. I am still unable to get on much or at all but managed to find a few mins today.

We did go through a phase where we would be in the room at the time she generally woke and pat her back to sleep.

This is one of the methods for W2S. Be there in case they begin to wake and shush/pat (or adapted) through into the next cycle. In your case FM I would go in at 35/40 min to wait for the 40/45 min WU, if not needed then leave and return for the 1hr WU, and so on. I know this doesn't give you much Y time but IMO it's worth it if it helps to habitually lengthen the nap. I know for my DS if I left it until he fully woke and cried for me it was too late to easily get him back to sleep and took ages, with lots of crying, where as the W2S (which I mainly used on the 2-1 nap drop) I went in every 20 mins which sounds a LOT but I was only in there 2 mins and the result was a fully refreshing 2 hr nap.  our 20 min WUs were due to OT but I couldn't move nap earlier or he was UT, the way to combat that OT for us was to get the nap longer to 2hrs consistently over a number of days so that overall (not just in one day) he was fully rested and then he could do the full A time and the full nap without the same difficulty.
hth

(really sorry I'm not around much!)

[FroggyMom]

I'm no expert on this but I do feel that with 1 nap, that sort of length would be indicative of OT. What A time are you on at the moment?

I agree that DD seems like she is getting OT after many days in a row of 1 nap of 1 hr 10 minutes-1 hr 20 min or so.  She did do a 1 hr 40 min nap....once!  Her morning A time is 5 hours.  What is awake time for your LO?  It seemed when she was accidentally awake longer than that for one reason or another her nap was even shorter.    I agree with you that the CN just seemed to be unnecessarily extending her day as it was taking me longer to get her to accept it than she was actually napping. 

I am just done with going mental over her sleep. Life is too short, and I have too much white hair from the first year:p:p:p Right

Haha!  I hear you on this!  I'm tired of letting it drive me totally insane!!!

(really sorry I'm not around much!)

No problem!  I appreciate you stopping in! 

So, I don't feel like I had any luck trying W2S with DD the past couple of days.  Am I supposed to actually pat and wake her even if she is sleeping well...or just be there in case she moves on her own?  Unfortunately, when I went in her room the other day, my knee popped and that immediately woke her!  No amount of me patting her and trying to calm her back down worked, and I left her up after 30 minutes of trying.   So, she only had a 58 min nap that day.   

I'm wondering if I have tried to move her to 1 nap to early now.  I thought she was ready but now am uncertain so I decided to try her on 2 naps again today.  She woke at 7:45, and I put her in her bed at 11 am to see how she would do.  It took me almost 50 min to get her to sleep!    Part of me wonders if this is because her A time was shorter than she is used to; however, lately, even when her awake time is 5 hours, it is still at least a 30 min struggle to get her to sleep.  She used to go straight to sleep when I put her in her crib.  However, now she stands up and I lay her back down...over and over and over.  Sigh!  I wonder is part of this is developmental as she is starting to cruise the furniture more.

I thought if I stuck with 1 nap it would lengthen out, but it has not at all.    Would you go back to 2 naps?

[creations]

I think she's 1yo now, yes? Or close?
I wouldn't go back to 2 naps but if there was the odd day she had a little nap out and about in the push chair or something then I wouldn't go crazy trying to stop it iyswim.

The W2S has another method where you go in and disturb her before she wakes. A gentle touch, just enough to make her stir slightly to start a new sleep cycle.  Maybe try that instead?

[newkidontheblock]

I'm wondering if I have tried to move her to 1 nap to early now.  I thought she was ready but now am uncertain so I decided to try her on 2 naps again today.  She woke at 7:45, and I put her in her bed at 11 am to see how she would do.  It took me almost 50 min to get her to sleep!    Part of me wonders if this is because her A time was shorter than she is used to; however, lately, even when her awake time is 5 hours, it is still at least a 30 min struggle to get her to sleep.  She used to go straight to sleep when I put her in her crib. 

If you find that she is taking time to fall asleep or doing short naps, perhaps a push in A is necessary. At this age, I found small pushes make a big difference. We pretty much push only 5-10 minutes to get back on track. I definitely think she didn't sleep because of such a short A. My DD would never have gone for that:p  Here's what I suggest - figure out the best A for her and stick to that for am nap. If nap ends too early/is too short, do a short CN before BT at normal time. I found EBT led to a few issues at this point although it was always my go-to option previously. I also found that doing a full 30-45 minute CN pushed BT too late, so I would do a quick 10 minute nap in the sling and then BT at normal time of 7pm.

I thought if I stuck with 1 nap it would lengthen out, but it has not at all.    Would you go back to 2 naps?

I don't think you should think of it in that way - 'going back'. This transition seems to require a lot of flexibility - things fell into place when I started going with the flow TBH. So take each day as it comes. Your aim is to have her go to bed with being OT. So as I said - work on pushing morning nap to a good point with proper A. Then plan the rest of the day depending on when that nap ends. 

{hugs} hun. This is a tough one, so best to step slowly and cautiously:)

[FroggyMom]

Well, we have just been continuing to muddle through the 2-1 nap transition.  We were doing all right until about 2.5 weeks ago, and it seems as if everything has gone to pieces. 

I think she's 1yo now, yes? Or close?

Yes, DD is 12.5 months old now!  Where has the time gone?!  I actually just made a new post on the toddler sleep board:

HELP!  My 12.5 month old independent sleeper won't sleep!  NWs, EWs, etc.

DD has now gone from being a wonderful, independent sleeper....to needing help to go to sleep most times, having NWs (some long/some short) and EWs pretty much everyday!     I'm at my wits end and just don't know what to do.  DS has also just started kindergarten, and I'm becoming more and more exhausted.  If you guys have time to take a look at my new thread, I would appreciate it!  Hope you are doing well!