NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!

[Sarahkinso]

Hi everyone

I am hoping someone can help me, my almost 11 month old is in a right mess with sleep.

For the last two weeks he has been waking every 1-2 hours at night, starting from the first sleep cycle after he goes to bed, then every 1-2 hours until about 11 then starts again at about 1/2ish and just screams and cries. He stands in the cot screaming, we go in and lay him down and then can only settle him by holding his hand until he is in a deep sleep or hand on his back or holding him in the chair. (We are inconsistent with how we respond). This goes on all night.
We used to be able to go in, give him the dummy and leave or most times we would hear him and he would settle himself back to sleep.

He is also having very short naps and we cannot extend them, even rocking sometimes doesn't work! So, he is generally only getting 1hour40-2 hours sleep per day in naps and 10-11 hours at night so I think he is now chronically overtired.

He generally has issues with his second nap and always seems to have trouble extending this nap anyway and no idea how to help him extend it. This means he always has a longer time between second nap and bedtime, going to bed overtired.

We have been trying to put him to bed earlier but haven't been consistent with this.

We used to rock him to sleep but gradually got him in the cot awake and he gets himself to sleep now for naps and bedtime but we have to help him extend his naps (shush/pat) otherwise he wakes at 30-35 minutes every single time. We are still in the room (in a chair in the corner) whilst he goes to sleep and need to move out of the room but not sure now is a good time to try.

He has a bit of separation anxiety I think too as he cries when we leave the room unless in a deep sleep and is very clingy during the day.

He is so cranky in the day, crying, having tantrums and is even worse on an evening within an hour of waking up from his nap and I think this is all because he is tired.

We had been putting him down around 3h15/20 A time and he was taking around 5 mins to get to sleep but we are now very inconsistent and putting him down anywhere between 3-3h30 A time and he is taking up to half an hour to get to sleep. He cries at every nap time and bedtime before going to sleep.

I have no idea where to start, I suffer from pnd and I am finding the sleep deprivation so hard and my poor baby is so unhappy I just want him to be rested and happy.

Here is how our days are looking;

Wu: between 5.30-6.20
Nap 1: 3h-3h15 (in cot) after waking, takes between 5-20 minutes to sleep
Sleeps anywhere between 35-1hour10 max (with help to extend past 35 minutes)
Nap 2: 3h15-3h30 (in cot) after waking (depending on previous nap length) sleeps for 30-35 minutes, hardly ever extends
Bedtime: 3hours-3hours15 after waking, not before 5.30pm

I have no idea what is going on, I think it is partly developmental and mostly a scheduling issue and we are doing something wrong. No idea where to even start.

Please can someone offer any tips, advice, I appreciate anything you can offer.

Thanks so much in advance x


Sent from my iPhone

[Sarahkinso]

Further to this, he woke around 5.40 (we think, we heard him at 5.30 though) this morning and so we put him down at 9am and he has just had an hour and a half nap which he hasn't had for ages.
Could we have it wrong and need to stick with a longer A time?!?! I am so confused as I was sure his problems stem from being OT. What are the differences in being OT and UT anyone know?

X

[Kellyjs]

I'm actually thinking UT hun. It can be vv difficult to tell the difference sometimes. However, the A times are quite short for an 11mo, hence why I'm thinking UT. And the fact you can not extend the naps. True UT behaviour.

He's showing signs of the 2-1 transition. Not saying he's ready for one nap yet, but just starting the process.

Have a read of this link, it really does explain it well. Then pop back with any questions ans we'll make a plan ok?

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly

Thank you so much for responding to me. Hmm, it is so difficult to tell if he is starting to transition. He has been having problems with that second nap since he was about 9 months old so a good couple of months now with only occasionally extending past 35 minutes and this is where the problem starts.
Maybe I do need to cap that first nap but it worries me as that is naturally his best nap of the day so I get scared about messing with it.

Yesterday was great with regards to naps and he finally managed to have over two hours worth of naps in the day and slept well last night with only a few wakings but mainly settled himself! So I am wondering if he is maybe undertired for nap 1 then overtired by nap 2 and bedtime?

So yesterday, he woke at around 5.40am we think so we put him down for nap 1 at 9am and he extended his nap (with help). Today we think he woke between 5.30-6.20 (was so difficult to tell) so put him down again at 9am and he only had 35 minutes. Put him down for his second nap with an A time of 3 hours and 15 and was asleep within 5 minutes and had an hour and 40 minute nap (with extension help again at 35 minutes).

He did used to have longer A times up to a mx of 3 hours 40 but becuase all this has been happening we wondered if we had been stretching him too far and was causing the problme so we pulled it back which seems to have helped.

If this has got him back on track with nightwakings, I'm not sure what to do with A times to get either a consistent long am/short pm nap or short am/long pm nap where we cap nap 1 to encourage a longer pm nap but risk a short pm nap too. I am so unsure and not sure when to try and extend the A times to get them closer to 4/5 hours over time to start the transition to 1 nap. He has always been on the lower side of A times for his age and gets OT very easily and quickly.

The other question is that of extension. I don't know why we have to help him every time with extending the nap, he will only ever have 35 minutes every single time unless we shh/pat but sometimes even that can be hit and miss. Could this be because we are still in the room with him when he goes to sleep? Will he naturally extend his naps eventually and transition to the next sleep cycle himself or am i destined to help him all the time. Once we extend past the first cycle he tends to then only ever go to a max of 1h40. Never 2 hours so I do worry he won't get enough day sleep when he transitions to one nap unless we try and help him extend twice.

Sorry for all of the questions etc, I guess now I am focusing on naps I may need to post in the nap section?

Thanks for reading x

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply hun.

35mins in obviously his sleep cycle. It's really good to know.

I too worried about getting the A times right. It was very much hit and miss. What worked for us was a much longer A time in the morning so ensure a longer nap, then the rest of the day I just winged it. I set a nap time, she either took it or didn't, I drove around to see if that helped etc etc. Some prefer doing it the other way round and it does work in that they manage to keep the second nap a bit longer than the way I did it. The trick is to find the right A times that work.

I think a bump in A time is definitely in order. He will be able to transition to the next sleep cycle without help as he does it perfectly fine at night. He's not so young anymore  . The fact he is willing to go back to sleep means the A time might be close, if he was so UT there would be no change of getting him back down iykwim.

Just to ask, are you happy with the 5-.30am wu time? Some are, but for me I don't like it  . Just so we can make a plan!

Mine was on one nap at this age, but just to give you an example of what we did when we started the transition at 9mo:

Wu 6.30am (was earlier before I started extending the first A)
A 4.5hrs
S 11-12.30
A 3.5hrs
S 4-4.45
A 2.5hrs
BT 7-7.15

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry for the delayed reply on my part.

I'm not sure what is best, my worry about extending his a times is him getting overtired then, he is very sensitive and gets ot very quickly. But I guess at the moment it isn't working and he is now only rarely extending his naps past 35 minutes even if he has had a previous short nap. It is all over the place nap wise! We are very inconsistent with his a times too so need a set plan and stick to it for a week at least. Would I need to gradually extend the a times?? The problem we have with nap 1 is we are not sure what time he wakes. We hear him then he goes quiet then we hear him again then quiet do no idea. He woke this morning at 5.15, then went quiet until 5.40 then went quiet until 6 so we put him down at 9.20 and he has 35 minutes and wouldn't extend.

He seems to now be taking 30/35 minutes or about 1 h 10 max then we have a long a time which we probably shouldn't making him ot and then he will have another short nap.

We have got A times right before and he still doesn't extend naturally so not sure if he will extend his nap naturally then either.

Just feeling so frustrated. I don't drive and he won't sleep in the buggy so his naps have to be in the cot so I do need to have a set plan and stick to it. But not sure where to start with that first wake up problem. I would much rather he woke at 6.30, I hate the 5-5.30 wake!

I like him having an early bed time too so don't want him to bump A time too much as the latest he can go to bed (and be asleep) is 7pm, he struggles much past this time and we like the earlier bedtime.
He has only been able to handle 3.5h max A time so would only rely want to stretch that to 4?

What do you think?

Thanks so much for your help.
Sarah x

[Kellyjs]

Hi Sarah, sorry for the late reply too 

He's over 11mo now isn't he hun? 3.5hrs is on the lower end of the average A times but not heard of. How do you feel he is during the day? Do you feel he's OT, or is he generally happy?

Some OT will happen during the transition to one nap. It is to be expected, but as you said he doesn't handle it too well, we can take the softly, softly approach. No worries at all.

Ok, so if we work that a 6.30am wu is the ideal, we take it from there. If he's waking happy and playing around in there, I would just leave him as long as possible or close to the ideal wu. If he's waking upset, do what you usually do to soothe a NW and treat every wu as a NW if it's before 6.30am. Then we set the nap at 3.5hrs A after 6.30 irrelevant of what time he woke. The down time in bed won't really count as A at this age as it's not too stimulating. So first nap at 10am. I really think pushing this one out will help with the 5am wu. It did with us. For the nap, I would do w2s at around 25mins, so go in and gently stroke his cheek or hold his shoulder until you hear a little sigh or breathing change, then slowly back out of the room to see if he transitions to the next sleep cycle. This may take time to get right. Also it might not work if the A time is too short, but this will help us understand more yk? I think we have a better chance of making this nap a long one than the afternoon one.

If the nap is short, I would try the above again at 3.5hrs A. Again, just to see. Otherwise of the nap is long, I would still do 3.5hrs and expect a shorter nap as that's ok with the length of day you want.

More tweaking will be needed hun, but I think this is a good starting point. We'll know more once you try this for a day or two. Log everything including any NW's for me ok? Really gives us a full picture.

My DD wouldn't sleep in the buggy either, or be apop'd if she wasn't tired enough, so don't worry. We can make a plan for that.  Xx

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly

Thank you so much again for your help.

Yes, he turned 11 months on Weds. I do think we need to extend his A times to get to at least 3,5hours comfortably. It varies, he is generally ok during the day but obviously OT and wired/hyper after a short nap and at the moment he is only having around 1 hour 40 max day sleep because he will not extend so he is quite cranky then hyper and he is very sensitive to being OT.

OK, I like the plan but I have concerns. Should we work to a 6-6.15 wu first and have first nap at 9.30/45 first then move to 10am gradually? I am just so worried and anxious about him getting OT cos it takes so long to get him back from that. The night wakings have calmed down a bit for now but the early morning wake, the early bed time and short naps still remain casuing problems.

My other concern is introducing a new method of extending naps whilst we are moving him to a longer A time. I agree that I would rather have early morn long nap and shorter second nap with early (ish) bedtime. I am just so worried about OT. I guess he is having short naps at the moment anyway so we could just try it all. I am just anxious about doing it straight off? I have read a few different approaches to w2s but think your plan is good as we already go in at 30 mins and shush/pat for 20 mins to extend.

The other thing is that we want to move out of the room. We did start the sleep lady shuffle with a sleep consultant last December but Harry was really struggling with it so we stopped at the chair by the door stage and have stayed there ever since. So we want to move out of the room to the next stage, but we have to get a black out sheet first as it is too light in the landing to keep the door open. Plus my worry with this is that we won't know what time he actually goes to sleep so won't be sure what time to come back in for the extension. Bit worried about trying everything at once you know? Although we could hold off on that bit.

Other than that, I am happy with the plan just concerned about him being really OT, especially if he wakes at 5.30 and his first nap isn't until 10? But part of me thinks we should just give it a try or maybe do first nap at 9.30/45 and work our way up.

What do you think? xx

[Kellyjs]

I really wouldn't worry as much about the OT first thing. IME OT first thing int  he morning is much better as at least then you have a chance to get them back to sleep after they wake early from a nap. OT by the end of the day, however can lead to early NW's and I find those much worse.

I hate the situation you're in, I've been there. Unfortunately it does sound like he's in an UT/OT loop. That means those short naps are leading to OT by the end of the day. You could try 9.45am nap, but I really wouldn't go much earlier. Remember OT naps are much easier to resettle. I'm more scared of UT than OT for this very reason. See where I'm coming from? It can't get much worse can it eh? 

Wrt to the w2s, what I meant is stroke his cheek 20mins or so after he goes to sleep. Then he should be in a deep sleep, do you want to do enough to rouse him slightly but not fully so he transitions into another sleep cycle. It can take some trial and error. Trust me, I became queen of this after a week or so  . No one knows exactly when that is unless you keep checking but I would listen on the monitor if you have one and time it from when the shuffling stops or he goes quiet. You shouldn't need to stay in there the entire time unless you feel it'll help? My DD was such an independent sleeper at that point I knew that if she saw me she'd think it was time to get up 

Maybe hold off on moving rooms until we can sort this out? I know what you mean about doing everything all at once. A whole new sleep environment plus this new routine might be a little much. Perhaps in a couple of weeks once we have this nailed, we can look at it then? Wdyt? X

[Sarahkinso]

Yes, I know what you mean about him being OT earlier in the day as he can then catch up with a nap.
Ok, so this morning he woke at 5.30 and snoozed on and off until 6ish but he was still awake. Put him down for a nap at 9.15 and he was asleep by 9.20 and had an hour and 25 nap which is brilliant so I think we have been putting him down too earlier.

I think aiming for 9.45 first nap is good. I have read lots about not having set nap times but hopefully as it is the first nap it might not be too bad to set it??

What I meant was we are still in the room when he goes to sleep, in a chair by the door, and we need to work on getting out of the room. Sorry, I didn't explain it very well. I think we maybe need to wait until we get his naps back under control and lengthening before that stage. He is a very dependent sleeper so we stay in the room with him until he is in a deep sleep and then leave but for naps come back in to shush:pat through to the next sleep cycle, then leave again,

I am still unsure about the w2s technique, especially if he starts lengthening his naps because of longer a time but then doesn't extend if the w2s doesn't work , I get anxious trying new things but I guess as you said it can't get any worse. My worry would be that if he only has 35 min cycles and I rouse him at 20 he will then have only another 35 minute cycle? So a max of 55 minutes???
Although on a night he tends to have 50minute-1 hour cycles so no idea why it is different in the day and why he cannot transition to the next sleep cycle for naps.

Thanks for your help x

[Kellyjs]

Bah just lost my reply to you. Silly ipad. Anyhoo what I originally set was great news. That's fantastic.

I love set naps tbh. Especially at this age and beyond as it starts to take a lot of the guess work out of it all. It's true that you have to find the A time that works, but an extra 15mins here and there A doesn't matter as much as they handle it a lot better as they get older. For me once I went to set naps, I didn't worry so much about what time she woke in the morning, stressing about it, wondering if I hadn't heard her for 10mins etc etc  . And once you get to one nap, it's kind of set anyway.

Yep, that would be the idea re 55mins, but hopefully he will transition again on his own or you go in at 45mins and repeat w2s again. I remember with DD we managed 1hr 20mims naps or so, but it worked much better as an hour is considered restorative.

Night sleep is totally different hun. I beat myself up about that too. DD only napped for 45mins for what felt like forever until I was given the confidence to push the A times. With that and a bit of w2s, within 2 weeks she was doing 1.5hr naps all by herself! Mind you, she then reverted back but that's another story as she hit the 2-1 with a bang  .

Wrt the sleeping... Sorry I get you now. I really think tackling that once the routine is a bit better will,definitely be more successful. We can make a plan for that. One thing at a time eh? Good luck sweetie, keep me posted xx

Did I ever give you the link about w2s? I'll be back in a mo to post it for you x How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

[Sarahkinso]

Hi kelly

Have had a chat with my hubby and we are a bit worried about setting that first nap at 9.45 with him waking at 5.30 as that is a very long time for him to be awake when he isn't used to it.
Is the theory that he will start waking later with a later nap time??
I think we are going to aim for 9.30 for nap 1 (with the aim for him to be asleep by 9.30) and then when hopefully he starts waking later then push that out again to closer to 10. So that we get to 3.5 hours of A time comfortably. At the moment we are putting him in about 9.15 and the last couple of days he has been having better naps when waking at 5.30 so am worried if we stretch him too much that will be difficult and unfair on him and might result in a shorter nap again.

If he has a short nap would you suggest then sticking to 3.5 hours of A time for second nap or bring it back a bit? Then 3.5 hours a time between nap 2 and bed and less if he has had a short nap??

With the w2s I think we are going to see how it goes with the increase in a time to see if that lengthens his naps whilst we are still using the technique we are now to extend naps. Then try the w2s once naps have improved and are consistent then move onto the next stage of us moving out of the room.

Thanks so much for your help hun x

[Kellyjs]

Hi hun, I can only advise from afar, you know your LO best I totally trust your judgement. You've done so well to get this far  .

You can always move it out again later if the 9.30am doesn't work. It's all just a case of trial and error to find what works best for yours. For example mine was on one nap and doing 6hrs first A at 11mo!

Yes, the idea is that you move the first nap out so he's less likely to wake early to catch up on the nap. I would keep the. 3.5hrs to second nap too x

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly

I am so sorry I haven't replied to you, things had been going really well with naps and night wakings have been minimal with Harry resttling himself to sleep.

However, the last week-10 days have gone to pot again! He was having two great naps (both and hour plus) when we set his nap 1 at 9.30 (was asleep by 9.30/45, never later) and setting his second A time at 3.5 hours (again asleep by 3.5), the early morning wu were disappearing too.
Then, the early wakes returned and he has only been having a maximum of 1 hour 15 with nap 1 and a maximum of 35 minutes for nap 2. He is also taking ages to get to sleep for naps and bedtime. We have been putting him in bed at night with an A time of between 3h-3.25 because of his short nap but it doesn't seem to make a difference, especially with the early morning wu. He has started waking again through the night and needing our help to settle, i am thinking this may be because he has been having less than two hours of sleep a day and around 11 maximum on a night, often it is 10.5 with the early wake, so some days has been having only 12-12.5 hours in the whole day.

I am wondering whether to set nap 1 at 9.45 for a few days to see if we can eradicate the early morning wu's again and see if that gets us a longer am nap. Then stick with 3.5 hours A time for nap 2 again and then I'm not sure for bedtime A time

Is it generally better to have a longer A time first thing, then shorter A time (or normal A time), then shorter A time again before bed? For example: WU/3.75/3.5/3 ??

I am still thinking this could be connected to the transition so need to re-read the link you sent me, he is 12 months old in 2 weeks. Plus he has started leap 8 of the wonder weeks and that always affects his naps and night sleep so am reluctant to change too much in case it doesn't work anyway but don't really want to leave things as they are.

Any advice?

Thanks Kelly x

[Kellyjs]

Hi Sarah, don't worry I always presume no news is good news!

Hmmm yes, sleep can be a bit tricksy around now with that ww. Also I would check to see if any 1yo molars are on their way too. Maybe try medicating with ibuprofen to see if that helps? These molars tend to cause grief before you can see them poking through. Developmental leaps can affect bubbas in different ways. For mine at 1yo her sleep needs went up quite a bit for a couple of weeks, others seem to need less sleep, by faffing around before naps and BT, but tbh I think that's a sign something needs to be tweaked.

You are spot on hun, what you've said is exactly what I would suggest. Push that first A ever so slightly and that second A a little more as they do look like UT naps. Yes, and hold the last A to BT is it's been working for him so far unless he's been waking in the early part of the night on that A time after a short nap?

 I wouldn't carry on pushing the second A much more than the 3.5hrs as your day might start to get a little long, and it's looking like he might prefer a longer first morning nap rather than the second during the 2-1. If he does take a short nap for the second one, I wouldn't worry, it's all part of the 2-1 and his overall sleep looks ok for his age.

When you reread the 2-1 link there is an alternative we could try in that some do better with a longer afternoon nap and shorter first one, especially if prone to EW, but I wouldn't try that yet considering he's in a ww. The A time can be hard to get right, but it is always something we can consider if the above plan doesn't work out. I've told you this not to confuse you hopefully, but to let you know if the above doesn't work out then there are other options ok? We can get him through this.