Author Topic: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!  (Read 5152 times)

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Offline Sarahkinso

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NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« on: May 20, 2015, 08:37:16 am »
Hi everyone

I am hoping someone can help me, my almost 11 month old is in a right mess with sleep.

For the last two weeks he has been waking every 1-2 hours at night, starting from the first sleep cycle after he goes to bed, then every 1-2 hours until about 11 then starts again at about 1/2ish and just screams and cries. He stands in the cot screaming, we go in and lay him down and then can only settle him by holding his hand until he is in a deep sleep or hand on his back or holding him in the chair. (We are inconsistent with how we respond). This goes on all night.
We used to be able to go in, give him the dummy and leave or most times we would hear him and he would settle himself back to sleep.

He is also having very short naps and we cannot extend them, even rocking sometimes doesn't work! So, he is generally only getting 1hour40-2 hours sleep per day in naps and 10-11 hours at night so I think he is now chronically overtired.

He generally has issues with his second nap and always seems to have trouble extending this nap anyway and no idea how to help him extend it. This means he always has a longer time between second nap and bedtime, going to bed overtired.

We have been trying to put him to bed earlier but haven't been consistent with this.

We used to rock him to sleep but gradually got him in the cot awake and he gets himself to sleep now for naps and bedtime but we have to help him extend his naps (shush/pat) otherwise he wakes at 30-35 minutes every single time. We are still in the room (in a chair in the corner) whilst he goes to sleep and need to move out of the room but not sure now is a good time to try.

He has a bit of separation anxiety I think too as he cries when we leave the room unless in a deep sleep and is very clingy during the day.

He is so cranky in the day, crying, having tantrums and is even worse on an evening within an hour of waking up from his nap and I think this is all because he is tired.

We had been putting him down around 3h15/20 A time and he was taking around 5 mins to get to sleep but we are now very inconsistent and putting him down anywhere between 3-3h30 A time and he is taking up to half an hour to get to sleep. He cries at every nap time and bedtime before going to sleep.

I have no idea where to start, I suffer from pnd and I am finding the sleep deprivation so hard and my poor baby is so unhappy I just want him to be rested and happy.

Here is how our days are looking;

Wu: between 5.30-6.20
Nap 1: 3h-3h15 (in cot) after waking, takes between 5-20 minutes to sleep
Sleeps anywhere between 35-1hour10 max (with help to extend past 35 minutes)
Nap 2: 3h15-3h30 (in cot) after waking (depending on previous nap length) sleeps for 30-35 minutes, hardly ever extends
Bedtime: 3hours-3hours15 after waking, not before 5.30pm

I have no idea what is going on, I think it is partly developmental and mostly a scheduling issue and we are doing something wrong. No idea where to even start.

Please can someone offer any tips, advice, I appreciate anything you can offer.

Thanks so much in advance x


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Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 09:45:02 am »
Further to this, he woke around 5.40 (we think, we heard him at 5.30 though) this morning and so we put him down at 9am and he has just had an hour and a half nap which he hasn't had for ages.
Could we have it wrong and need to stick with a longer A time?!?! I am so confused as I was sure his problems stem from being OT. What are the differences in being OT and UT anyone know?

X

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 12:06:57 pm »
I'm actually thinking UT hun. It can be vv difficult to tell the difference sometimes. However, the A times are quite short for an 11mo, hence why I'm thinking UT. And the fact you can not extend the naps. True UT behaviour.

He's showing signs of the 2-1 transition. Not saying he's ready for one nap yet, but just starting the process.

Have a read of this link, it really does explain it well. Then pop back with any questions ans we'll make a plan ok?

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 12:08:58 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2015, 20:16:05 pm »
Hi Kelly

Thank you so much for responding to me. Hmm, it is so difficult to tell if he is starting to transition. He has been having problems with that second nap since he was about 9 months old so a good couple of months now with only occasionally extending past 35 minutes and this is where the problem starts.
Maybe I do need to cap that first nap but it worries me as that is naturally his best nap of the day so I get scared about messing with it.

Yesterday was great with regards to naps and he finally managed to have over two hours worth of naps in the day and slept well last night with only a few wakings but mainly settled himself! So I am wondering if he is maybe undertired for nap 1 then overtired by nap 2 and bedtime?

So yesterday, he woke at around 5.40am we think so we put him down for nap 1 at 9am and he extended his nap (with help). Today we think he woke between 5.30-6.20 (was so difficult to tell) so put him down again at 9am and he only had 35 minutes. Put him down for his second nap with an A time of 3 hours and 15 and was asleep within 5 minutes and had an hour and 40 minute nap (with extension help again at 35 minutes).

He did used to have longer A times up to a mx of 3 hours 40 but becuase all this has been happening we wondered if we had been stretching him too far and was causing the problme so we pulled it back which seems to have helped.

If this has got him back on track with nightwakings, I'm not sure what to do with A times to get either a consistent long am/short pm nap or short am/long pm nap where we cap nap 1 to encourage a longer pm nap but risk a short pm nap too. I am so unsure and not sure when to try and extend the A times to get them closer to 4/5 hours over time to start the transition to 1 nap. He has always been on the lower side of A times for his age and gets OT very easily and quickly.

The other question is that of extension. I don't know why we have to help him every time with extending the nap, he will only ever have 35 minutes every single time unless we shh/pat but sometimes even that can be hit and miss. Could this be because we are still in the room with him when he goes to sleep? Will he naturally extend his naps eventually and transition to the next sleep cycle himself or am i destined to help him all the time. Once we extend past the first cycle he tends to then only ever go to a max of 1h40. Never 2 hours so I do worry he won't get enough day sleep when he transitions to one nap unless we try and help him extend twice.

Sorry for all of the questions etc, I guess now I am focusing on naps I may need to post in the nap section?

Thanks for reading x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 15:16:27 pm »
Sorry for the late reply hun.

35mins in obviously his sleep cycle. It's really good to know.

I too worried about getting the A times right. It was very much hit and miss. What worked for us was a much longer A time in the morning so ensure a longer nap, then the rest of the day I just winged it. I set a nap time, she either took it or didn't, I drove around to see if that helped etc etc. Some prefer doing it the other way round and it does work in that they manage to keep the second nap a bit longer than the way I did it. The trick is to find the right A times that work.

I think a bump in A time is definitely in order. He will be able to transition to the next sleep cycle without help as he does it perfectly fine at night. He's not so young anymore  ;). The fact he is willing to go back to sleep means the A time might be close, if he was so UT there would be no change of getting him back down iykwim.

Just to ask, are you happy with the 5-.30am wu time? Some are, but for me I don't like it  ;). Just so we can make a plan!

Mine was on one nap at this age, but just to give you an example of what we did when we started the transition at 9mo:

Wu 6.30am (was earlier before I started extending the first A)
A 4.5hrs
S 11-12.30
A 3.5hrs
S 4-4.45
A 2.5hrs
BT 7-7.15





Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2015, 09:17:27 am »
Hi Kelly,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry for the delayed reply on my part.

I'm not sure what is best, my worry about extending his a times is him getting overtired then, he is very sensitive and gets ot very quickly. But I guess at the moment it isn't working and he is now only rarely extending his naps past 35 minutes even if he has had a previous short nap. It is all over the place nap wise! We are very inconsistent with his a times too so need a set plan and stick to it for a week at least. Would I need to gradually extend the a times?? The problem we have with nap 1 is we are not sure what time he wakes. We hear him then he goes quiet then we hear him again then quiet do no idea. He woke this morning at 5.15, then went quiet until 5.40 then went quiet until 6 so we put him down at 9.20 and he has 35 minutes and wouldn't extend.

He seems to now be taking 30/35 minutes or about 1 h 10 max then we have a long a time which we probably shouldn't making him ot and then he will have another short nap.

We have got A times right before and he still doesn't extend naturally so not sure if he will extend his nap naturally then either.

Just feeling so frustrated. I don't drive and he won't sleep in the buggy so his naps have to be in the cot so I do need to have a set plan and stick to it. But not sure where to start with that first wake up problem. I would much rather he woke at 6.30, I hate the 5-5.30 wake!

I like him having an early bed time too so don't want him to bump A time too much as the latest he can go to bed (and be asleep) is 7pm, he struggles much past this time and we like the earlier bedtime.
He has only been able to handle 3.5h max A time so would only rely want to stretch that to 4?

What do you think?

Thanks so much for your help.
Sarah x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 06:27:32 am »
Hi Sarah, sorry for the late reply too  :)

He's over 11mo now isn't he hun? 3.5hrs is on the lower end of the average A times but not heard of. How do you feel he is during the day? Do you feel he's OT, or is he generally happy?

Some OT will happen during the transition to one nap. It is to be expected, but as you said he doesn't handle it too well, we can take the softly, softly approach. No worries at all.

Ok, so if we work that a 6.30am wu is the ideal, we take it from there. If he's waking happy and playing around in there, I would just leave him as long as possible or close to the ideal wu. If he's waking upset, do what you usually do to soothe a NW and treat every wu as a NW if it's before 6.30am. Then we set the nap at 3.5hrs A after 6.30 irrelevant of what time he woke. The down time in bed won't really count as A at this age as it's not too stimulating. So first nap at 10am. I really think pushing this one out will help with the 5am wu. It did with us. For the nap, I would do w2s at around 25mins, so go in and gently stroke his cheek or hold his shoulder until you hear a little sigh or breathing change, then slowly back out of the room to see if he transitions to the next sleep cycle. This may take time to get right. Also it might not work if the A time is too short, but this will help us understand more yk? I think we have a better chance of making this nap a long one than the afternoon one.

If the nap is short, I would try the above again at 3.5hrs A. Again, just to see. Otherwise of the nap is long, I would still do 3.5hrs and expect a shorter nap as that's ok with the length of day you want.

More tweaking will be needed hun, but I think this is a good starting point. We'll know more once you try this for a day or two. Log everything including any NW's for me ok? Really gives us a full picture.

My DD wouldn't sleep in the buggy either, or be apop'd if she wasn't tired enough, so don't worry. We can make a plan for that.  Xx



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 08:50:39 am »
Hi Kelly

Thank you so much again for your help.

Yes, he turned 11 months on Weds. I do think we need to extend his A times to get to at least 3,5hours comfortably. It varies, he is generally ok during the day but obviously OT and wired/hyper after a short nap and at the moment he is only having around 1 hour 40 max day sleep because he will not extend so he is quite cranky then hyper and he is very sensitive to being OT.

OK, I like the plan but I have concerns. Should we work to a 6-6.15 wu first and have first nap at 9.30/45 first then move to 10am gradually? I am just so worried and anxious about him getting OT cos it takes so long to get him back from that. The night wakings have calmed down a bit for now but the early morning wake, the early bed time and short naps still remain casuing problems.

My other concern is introducing a new method of extending naps whilst we are moving him to a longer A time. I agree that I would rather have early morn long nap and shorter second nap with early (ish) bedtime. I am just so worried about OT. I guess he is having short naps at the moment anyway so we could just try it all. I am just anxious about doing it straight off? I have read a few different approaches to w2s but think your plan is good as we already go in at 30 mins and shush/pat for 20 mins to extend.

The other thing is that we want to move out of the room. We did start the sleep lady shuffle with a sleep consultant last December but Harry was really struggling with it so we stopped at the chair by the door stage and have stayed there ever since. So we want to move out of the room to the next stage, but we have to get a black out sheet first as it is too light in the landing to keep the door open. Plus my worry with this is that we won't know what time he actually goes to sleep so won't be sure what time to come back in for the extension. Bit worried about trying everything at once you know? Although we could hold off on that bit.

Other than that, I am happy with the plan just concerned about him being really OT, especially if he wakes at 5.30 and his first nap isn't until 10? But part of me thinks we should just give it a try or maybe do first nap at 9.30/45 and work our way up.

What do you think? xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 10:22:48 am »
I really wouldn't worry as much about the OT first thing. IME OT first thing int  he morning is much better as at least then you have a chance to get them back to sleep after they wake early from a nap. OT by the end of the day, however can lead to early NW's and I find those much worse.

I hate the situation you're in, I've been there. Unfortunately it does sound like he's in an UT/OT loop. That means those short naps are leading to OT by the end of the day. You could try 9.45am nap, but I really wouldn't go much earlier. Remember OT naps are much easier to resettle. I'm more scared of UT than OT for this very reason. See where I'm coming from? It can't get much worse can it eh?  ;)

Wrt to the w2s, what I meant is stroke his cheek 20mins or so after he goes to sleep. Then he should be in a deep sleep, do you want to do enough to rouse him slightly but not fully so he transitions into another sleep cycle. It can take some trial and error. Trust me, I became queen of this after a week or so  ;). No one knows exactly when that is unless you keep checking but I would listen on the monitor if you have one and time it from when the shuffling stops or he goes quiet. You shouldn't need to stay in there the entire time unless you feel it'll help? My DD was such an independent sleeper at that point I knew that if she saw me she'd think it was time to get up  ;)

Maybe hold off on moving rooms until we can sort this out? I know what you mean about doing everything all at once. A whole new sleep environment plus this new routine might be a little much. Perhaps in a couple of weeks once we have this nailed, we can look at it then? Wdyt? X



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 13:32:28 pm »
Yes, I know what you mean about him being OT earlier in the day as he can then catch up with a nap.
Ok, so this morning he woke at 5.30 and snoozed on and off until 6ish but he was still awake. Put him down for a nap at 9.15 and he was asleep by 9.20 and had an hour and 25 nap which is brilliant so I think we have been putting him down too earlier.

I think aiming for 9.45 first nap is good. I have read lots about not having set nap times but hopefully as it is the first nap it might not be too bad to set it??

What I meant was we are still in the room when he goes to sleep, in a chair by the door, and we need to work on getting out of the room. Sorry, I didn't explain it very well. I think we maybe need to wait until we get his naps back under control and lengthening before that stage. He is a very dependent sleeper so we stay in the room with him until he is in a deep sleep and then leave but for naps come back in to shush:pat through to the next sleep cycle, then leave again,

I am still unsure about the w2s technique, especially if he starts lengthening his naps because of longer a time but then doesn't extend if the w2s doesn't work , I get anxious trying new things but I guess as you said it can't get any worse. My worry would be that if he only has 35 min cycles and I rouse him at 20 he will then have only another 35 minute cycle? So a max of 55 minutes???
Although on a night he tends to have 50minute-1 hour cycles so no idea why it is different in the day and why he cannot transition to the next sleep cycle for naps.

Thanks for your help x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2015, 16:40:53 pm »
Bah just lost my reply to you. Silly ipad. Anyhoo what I originally set was great news. That's fantastic.

I love set naps tbh. Especially at this age and beyond as it starts to take a lot of the guess work out of it all. It's true that you have to find the A time that works, but an extra 15mins here and there A doesn't matter as much as they handle it a lot better as they get older. For me once I went to set naps, I didn't worry so much about what time she woke in the morning, stressing about it, wondering if I hadn't heard her for 10mins etc etc  ::). And once you get to one nap, it's kind of set anyway.

Yep, that would be the idea re 55mins, but hopefully he will transition again on his own or you go in at 45mins and repeat w2s again. I remember with DD we managed 1hr 20mims naps or so, but it worked much better as an hour is considered restorative.

Night sleep is totally different hun. I beat myself up about that too. DD only napped for 45mins for what felt like forever until I was given the confidence to push the A times. With that and a bit of w2s, within 2 weeks she was doing 1.5hr naps all by herself! Mind you, she then reverted back but that's another story as she hit the 2-1 with a bang  ;).

Wrt the sleeping... Sorry I get you now. I really think tackling that once the routine is a bit better will,definitely be more successful. We can make a plan for that. One thing at a time eh? Good luck sweetie, keep me posted xx

Did I ever give you the link about w2s? I'll be back in a mo to post it for you x How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2015, 17:58:08 pm »
Hi kelly

Have had a chat with my hubby and we are a bit worried about setting that first nap at 9.45 with him waking at 5.30 as that is a very long time for him to be awake when he isn't used to it.
Is the theory that he will start waking later with a later nap time??
I think we are going to aim for 9.30 for nap 1 (with the aim for him to be asleep by 9.30) and then when hopefully he starts waking later then push that out again to closer to 10. So that we get to 3.5 hours of A time comfortably. At the moment we are putting him in about 9.15 and the last couple of days he has been having better naps when waking at 5.30 so am worried if we stretch him too much that will be difficult and unfair on him and might result in a shorter nap again.

If he has a short nap would you suggest then sticking to 3.5 hours of A time for second nap or bring it back a bit? Then 3.5 hours a time between nap 2 and bed and less if he has had a short nap??

With the w2s I think we are going to see how it goes with the increase in a time to see if that lengthens his naps whilst we are still using the technique we are now to extend naps. Then try the w2s once naps have improved and are consistent then move onto the next stage of us moving out of the room.

Thanks so much for your help hun x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2015, 18:57:15 pm »
Hi hun, I can only advise from afar, you know your LO best I totally trust your judgement. You've done so well to get this far  ;).

You can always move it out again later if the 9.30am doesn't work. It's all just a case of trial and error to find what works best for yours. For example mine was on one nap and doing 6hrs first A at 11mo!

Yes, the idea is that you move the first nap out so he's less likely to wake early to catch up on the nap. I would keep the. 3.5hrs to second nap too x



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2015, 21:14:17 pm »
Hi Kelly

I am so sorry I haven't replied to you, things had been going really well with naps and night wakings have been minimal with Harry resttling himself to sleep.

However, the last week-10 days have gone to pot again! He was having two great naps (both and hour plus) when we set his nap 1 at 9.30 (was asleep by 9.30/45, never later) and setting his second A time at 3.5 hours (again asleep by 3.5), the early morning wu were disappearing too.
Then, the early wakes returned and he has only been having a maximum of 1 hour 15 with nap 1 and a maximum of 35 minutes for nap 2. He is also taking ages to get to sleep for naps and bedtime. We have been putting him in bed at night with an A time of between 3h-3.25 because of his short nap but it doesn't seem to make a difference, especially with the early morning wu. He has started waking again through the night and needing our help to settle, i am thinking this may be because he has been having less than two hours of sleep a day and around 11 maximum on a night, often it is 10.5 with the early wake, so some days has been having only 12-12.5 hours in the whole day.

I am wondering whether to set nap 1 at 9.45 for a few days to see if we can eradicate the early morning wu's again and see if that gets us a longer am nap. Then stick with 3.5 hours A time for nap 2 again and then I'm not sure for bedtime A time

Is it generally better to have a longer A time first thing, then shorter A time (or normal A time), then shorter A time again before bed? For example: WU/3.75/3.5/3 ??

I am still thinking this could be connected to the transition so need to re-read the link you sent me, he is 12 months old in 2 weeks. Plus he has started leap 8 of the wonder weeks and that always affects his naps and night sleep so am reluctant to change too much in case it doesn't work anyway but don't really want to leave things as they are.

Any advice?

Thanks Kelly x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2015, 07:35:05 am »
Hi Sarah, don't worry I always presume no news is good news!

Hmmm yes, sleep can be a bit tricksy around now with that ww. Also I would check to see if any 1yo molars are on their way too. Maybe try medicating with ibuprofen to see if that helps? These molars tend to cause grief before you can see them poking through. Developmental leaps can affect bubbas in different ways. For mine at 1yo her sleep needs went up quite a bit for a couple of weeks, others seem to need less sleep, by faffing around before naps and BT, but tbh I think that's a sign something needs to be tweaked.

You are spot on hun, what you've said is exactly what I would suggest. Push that first A ever so slightly and that second A a little more as they do look like UT naps. Yes, and hold the last A to BT is it's been working for him so far unless he's been waking in the early part of the night on that A time after a short nap?

 I wouldn't carry on pushing the second A much more than the 3.5hrs as your day might start to get a little long, and it's looking like he might prefer a longer first morning nap rather than the second during the 2-1. If he does take a short nap for the second one, I wouldn't worry, it's all part of the 2-1 and his overall sleep looks ok for his age.

When you reread the 2-1 link there is an alternative we could try in that some do better with a longer afternoon nap and shorter first one, especially if prone to EW, but I wouldn't try that yet considering he's in a ww. The A time can be hard to get right, but it is always something we can consider if the above plan doesn't work out. I've told you this not to confuse you hopefully, but to let you know if the above doesn't work out then there are other options ok? We can get him through this.  :-*



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2015, 20:34:22 pm »
Hi hun

Thank you once again for your brilliant advice, how do you know so much about this? Just from your own experience? you are very knowledgable :)

So, today he woke at 5.30am and we put him in the cot at 9.30, he took five mins to sleep and had an hour and 35 minute nap! But then it went to pot and he completely refused his second nap until 3.40 and we had to rock him. So we cut his last A time to 2 hours 50 and that worked a treat with him going to sleep the fastest he has in absolutely ages. But, that first nap was great and that was an A time of 4 hours and 5 as he definietly woke at 5.30am.

So I am thinking we actually do need to shorten that last A time perhaps even to 2 hours 40/50 in the cot so he is asleep by 3 hours. Hmm, think some trialling with that one may help. Any idea how we can tell when he is totally ready for the trainistion to one nap? I definitely do not want to push him into it and hope he doesn't trainisition for a good few months yet, but just so i know what to look out for.

i still haven't had chance to properly read the link but I do think that he prefers a longer first nap and shorter second nap with a shorter A time for bed.

Is it ok to have the longest A time first thing? I always thought it should be the other way around and have the shortest A time first thing, then getting longer through the day. Harry seems to do best the opposite though and often does better on a shorter A time before bed, but that could be because he often has a short second nap.

So, what do you think of this plan:

WU: Before 6, first nap 9.30
WU: After 6, first nap 3.75 A time
second nap, 3.5 hours A time (or maybe longer to make him extend his nap?!? But don't want to make him too ot) and bedtime 3hours

Or should we just say, first nap 9.45, regardless of wake? But then, if he wakes at something like 6.20am or so I'm not sure when we would put him down, I'm wondering if he needs longer than 3.5hours for first A time to get a good nap.

The other thing is, do I put him down 10/15 minutes before the end of the A time so 3.5 hours for a 3.75 A time? (does that even make sense?) He can take anywhere between 5 minutes to 30+ minutes to go to sleep.

Sorry for the confusion and going back and forth, just want to get a plan together where we are consistent with times and A times. So frustrating trying to work it all out!

Thanks Kelly x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 06:45:41 am »
It's much easier to see patterns when you're not in the middle of it hun. I still need help with my LO as it gets so confusing! That's the beauty of the forums  ;)

You're definitely in the middle of the 2-1. Refusing the second nap is a very good indicator of this. You did the perfect thing in shortening the last A. Mine was doing 2.5hrs last A after a 45mins nap (quickly capped to 30mins) to BT. I had to keep capping that last nap as it was taking her longer to go down for it and I didn't want the day to get too long.

The idea with the 2-1 is to watch for the warning signs. EW is his way of telling you he needs a longer A first thing, just like mine did and many others too. It's perfectly ok to have it this way round. Even others during the 2-1 may have a long first A too, but also cap that nap to hope for a longer nap in the afternoon.

I would keep that first A at 4hrs as he obviously did a good nap there, irrelevant of what time he wakes. The key is to be consistent so he knows that'd he's not going to get a nice long nap soon after waking up in the morning to try and discourage these early WU's. I would keep the second A at 3.5hrs and hope for a short nap, then do the 2hrs 40/50 to BT. I would hold this for at least 3 days and see if he settles into it for awhile.

Do remember though, this is a transition and he's likely to want to switch things up again pretty quickly. But I think if he can learn the new A times he may accept the second nap albeit an UT one. You may also need to apop that second nap here and there like you did yesterday. This is totally ok  as long as you're not doing it for every nap and BT. We do what we can to get through these transitions. I will never gets stroppy about cars driving slowly on motorways again... I know now the majority of them will be trying to get a LO to sleep!!  ;) ;D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 06:47:28 am by Kellyjs »



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 21:21:24 pm »
Very true, this forum is fab! :)

Well, I had a look at the indicators of the tranisition and he is not actually refusing his nap, he just fights it for ages. I think with the last A time, it is dependent on the nap length. But then it doesn't become consistent and we go back to random bed times and A times.

Today was a bit odd, we tried to stretch the first A time to 3.75 as he woke at 6am but only had a short 35 minute nap which was really weird. So i then set the next A time at 3.5 hours and he slept an hour and ten. I was hoping for a lot longer. Are there particular nap lengths that suggest UT or OT? Then we set the third A time for 2h50 (in bed) but he took 40 minutes to go to sleep, eventually having an A time of 3.5 hours. That may have been because his nap was a bit longer.

I am still so confused as to what to do.

I think you could be right about stretching that first A time to 4 hours. Or do I set a first nap time? Maybe we need to do 10am first nap and then if he wakes earllier then stick with 10 but then if he wakes at 5.30 then that will be 4.5 hours. Or do we just say 4 hours from whatever wu is?

The other thing I am unsure of what to do is when to actually put him to bed. When we say 4 hours A time, is that asleep by 4 hours or in the cot at 4 hours?? he can take anywhere from 5-40 minutes to sleep which makes it difficult to know when to put him into bed.

Sorry, i am going round in circles right now, just struggling to find a consistent plan as there are so many what ifs and what to do when he has a short nap or a longer nap than expected, that is when i am thrown and starts getting inconsitent and he has random A times.

Lol, very true about the car drivers going slow! I don't drive at the moment (I am learning) so haven't experienced the desperate car drive to get him to sleep, although I have experienced the loooong pram walks to get him to sleep, for him to fall asleep as we get to the house! lol  :P

Thanks Kelly, sorry for keeping going back and forth with this, as you said I'm expecting lots of changes with the transition but struggling to keep up! lol xx

Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 20:26:11 pm »
Hi Kelly

Just a quick update following my post yesterday. Today was worse than today and I am wondering if i am stretching him too far. The day looked like this:

wu: 5-6 (heard him at 5am then 5.15, 5.40, 6am and when we went in at 6.10 he was laying down trying to get back to sleep but wouldn't have had a restorative sleep from 5am)
Nap 1: 9.33-10.05 (30 minutes)
Nap 2: 2.25- 2.55 (30 minutes) had to go out to attend a baby group/course and couldn't get back until then so his A time was a lot more than I would have done if I was at home but I couldn't cancel.
Bedtime: 5.30 in bed but he was sick so had to give him a quick bath and he went to sleep at 6pm.

So, is a 30 minute nap an indication of overtiredness? This is day 2 of a 30 minute first nap which is making me wonder if that first A is actually too long. The problem is we are unsure of when he properly wakes.

or it could be the short naps are down to the ww or he may be under the weather as he has been very upset today, i thought it was down to the lack of sleep but then he was sick so I am unsure.

Just thought I'd update you before you reply  :D xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2015, 21:38:49 pm »
Sorry for the late reply hun, I'm with family this week. It does sound like he's poorly so I'd just go with the flow. 30mins nap can be indicative of OT but they can be easy enough to resettle and I'm surprised he had 2 is one day so I'm thinking the fact he's feeling under the weather must be playing a part in it.

Let me know how it goes tomorrow. Usually they settle down after a day or two if sick and then we can reassess xx



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2015, 20:23:59 pm »
Hi Kelly

Hope  you had a nice time with family and thanks for replying, you didn't have to do that if you were/are busy or away.

So, I'm not sure if he was poorly or if it is this ww causing problems. The other thing is he could be too hot, it has been so hot in his room the last couple of weeks. He has started extending his morning nap again which is great, it was cooler yesterday and we put him in less clothes this morning. However, we are having big issues with his second nap again and he is only having half an hour -40 mins at the most and he wakes hysterical and stays hysterical/cranky with lots of tears and tantrums for the rest of the afternoon until he goes to bed.

So, yesterday looked like this:
wu: 6.10 Nap 1: 9.50-11.05 (1 hour 15) Nap 2: 2.40-3.20 (40 mins) Bedtime: 6.30 (asleep, put in cot at 2h50)

Today looked like this:
wu: 6.05 Nap 1: 9.45-11.05 (1h20) Nap 2: 2.45-3.15 (30 mins) Bedtime: 6.20 (asleep, put in cot 2h50)

As you can see, we haven't been doing the 4h A time for nap 1 as yet as I'm worried we are stretching him too far and haven't been stretching him too much for nap 2 either, he shows tired signs at 3h5-10 after nap 1 and then just goes hyper if we leave him much past 3h30.

I am toying with capping nap 1 and seeing if that means he will have a longer nap 2 but I think he needs longer than that at that time of the day and I worry that if nap 2 is less restoritive (I think I read this can happen at this age) then I don't want to mess with the one good nap he has, if that makes sense?? He seems to naturally have a longer morning nap and a shorter pm nap but it seems to be causing him to be extremely cranky these last few days, he didn't seem too bothered by his short nap before which is why I'm wondering if it is wonder week related or if it something we need to tweak, he is such a mess on an afternoon it is horrible to see, he clearly needs to have a longer nap in the afternoon but no idea how to get him to do that.

Thanks Kelly
Sarah


Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2015, 12:09:06 pm »
Ok, I'm back to the land of the living!

How's it going now hun?

You could look at actually shortening the second A and see if that helps any? It may be that that second A is too short too get a long nap in but also may be that slight bit too long that he's not waking up happy after it. I do think we should aim for a short second nap at this age, but it's finding the right time that suits him. It would mean lengthening that first A though in order for your day not to shorten too much. Wdyt? X



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2015, 06:02:09 am »
hi hun

Ah, welcome back  :P

Not too bad thanks, yesterday was strange, we were out and didn't manage to get him to sleep until 3h40 for the second nap so I thought I would let him have a short nap and didn't go in to help extend and he had an hour! I am now wondering if going in at 30 mins is disturbing him if he has a lighter sleep at this time of day so going to try again to leave him to it and see what happens. It may just have been a fluke though! But will see. I'm not sure again what to have that second A time as. The first nap of the day was only an hour and 10 so may have been slightly UT for that one. Again we are having trouble knowing when he wakes and when to start his A time from as we hear him on and off and it goes quiet and he tends to be laying down in the cot still when we go in rather than up at the side of the cot.

I am worried about stretching him but at the same time know that when he does transition down to one nap he needs to be able to handle A times of 5 hours plus? How do we get to that point in just a few months??

So, I think we are going to aim for a 3hour45 A time first thing getting closer to 4 hours then not sure about second A time and third A time we tend to wing it. Again, I worry about us doing such a short A time at this time wondering how he will cope when he has one nap when he is used to a shorter A time to bed if that makes sense?!?

Thanks kelly x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2015, 06:56:59 am »
Don't worry too much hun, they tend to up their ability to cope with longer A's in spurts! If you wanted a shorter A to BT, yes the first A will have to be closer to 5.5hrs ish, but remember this is a transition. Some days he may handle it, others you may have to apop a car nap or something to get you through.

When we were on one nap most days, I had to apop a quick 15mins car nap in around 9am if I thought she wasn't going to make it to her usual nap time. In my mind, I wasn't putting her to bed so effectively we were still on one nap iykwim?

You'll know when he's ready to increase his A time, he might be showing you signs already by taking UT nap first thing. You can gradually increase the A time by 15mins hold for a few days or a week so he gets used to it and increase again if you feel he's ready.

What I said in my first paragraph... I just wanted to give you an example. Recently my DD has chopped her sleep needs down drastically. We've lost over 2hrs a day, it just happened all of a sudden. Within 2mths. I kept pushing her to have more sleep, but she doesn't need it. With the help from others on here, it just helped me realise I was fighting a losing battle  ;) xx



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2015, 20:27:43 pm »
Hi Kelly

Ugh! Things have gone from bad to worse.

I don't know if it is because it is 'stormy week' in this ww leap, plus he has had a cold and is teething and it is hoooot but he is all over the place. I can't help but think we are doing something wrong and making lots of little mistakes. I don't feel like we really have much of a schedule and he is crying at most naptimes and BT and we are getting EWs again - 5-5.30 almost every day for the last two weeks. He is fighting the second nap so much and have had two days where is has skipped it totally, even with trying to apop a car nap today he still fought his nap so hard that we had to skip it in the end.

He is waking again throughout the night again and needing to be rocked back to sleep (for the last three nights running).

I'm not entirely sure what to do next, we finally had a longer nap this morning by putting him down at 9.25 as he woke at 5.30 but sometimes we are not sure when he wakes as we hear him but he snoozes on and off until we go in to get him up after 6am.

Any ideas?!?! xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2015, 11:14:07 am »
What's the last few days looked like hun? Would you mind posting them for me to see what we can do.

Colds and teething are horrible and don't help with sleep either so I feel for you x



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2015, 17:45:06 pm »
Sorry for the silence. We had a really good two days after I posted. He had an hour and 40 min nap followed by 35 minute nap on two consecutive days and the early wu's disappeared too but it has been so up and down since then.

It is just this second nap becoming a problem and he has now gone back to having a shorter (just over an hour-hour and 15 max) first nap on a morning! Argh. He has skipped nap 2 about 3 times in the space of just over a week or he fights it so much that it becomes quite late and he has a later bedtime. All this is causing him to be awake for a long time before bed (when he skips the nap) and having night wakings early on the night where he struggles to settle without being rocked.

Anyway, here are the last few days:

Sat 4th July:
Wu- 5.40 nap 1- 9.45-10.50 nap 2- 3.05-3.55 bedtime- 7.20 (asleep)
Sun 5th July:
Wu- 6.25 nap 1- 10.05-11.20 nap 2- 2.50-3.20 bedtime - 7.15 (asleep)
Mon 6th July:
Wu- 6.30 (had to wake him) nap 1- 10.13-11.15 nap 2- skipped. Put in cot at 2.35, cried and wouldn't settle, got him up at 3.20 after giving up as he was hysterical for most of the time. Bedtime- put to bed at 6pm, cried - hysterically - finally settled at 7.40

He skipped second nap last sat (27th) and weds (1st) and takes around 30-40 minutes to go to sleep some days for nap 2.

I know he is in transition but I am hoping there is something I can do to help him and make it better?!?!
He is also cutting his molars I think on top and bottom but giving calpol doesn't seem to help much. We have only been giving it at night though so maybe I need to give it before a nap too but he doesn't seem in pain too much any other time of the day.

Thanks x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2015, 19:02:23 pm »
I'd try ibuprofen for teeth hun, it works much better. Calpol do their version.

That first A needs pushing again, especially as the main nap is getting shorter. The idea is to preserve that nap at all costs!  ;)

I'd jump that first A to 4hrs straight away. It will need more I'm thinking, but that's a good place to start. It really is the best thing you can do for him hun. He needs to have that nice long nap in there.

I would also keep trying for a second nap but at 3.5hrs A. Even the quiet time in bed helps them, even if they don't actually sleep ok. All else fails, and you feel he's not going to make it to BT without a CN you can always apop a quick car nap in the car for 15mims just to get him to a reasonable BT. If he doesn't take a CN, you can always use EBT. Don't be too afraid of it, many LO's tack on the sleep they've missed as long as you don't try and push BT too late. If he's had a decent first nap, there's more of a chance he will be able to get through the day.

The thing is with the 2-1, some days they'll take that second nap and you think you've cracked it. The next, they refuse,it and you drive yourself crazy thinking they'll be OT forever. They won't. Remember, I'm telling you all this because I've thought the exact same thing. There will be some good days and bad, but we need to keep pushing that first A, as two UT naps will only cause you more grief in the nighttime and no one wants that! X



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2015, 09:15:36 am »
Thank you again for your fab help Hun.

Ok, so have given ibruprofen and pushed out the first a to almost 4 hours. I'm not sure when to actually put him in bed so he is asleep by 4 hours, maybe at 3h45 A. That is pretty much what I have done this morn and he went straight to sleep so not sure that is good.

The other thing I am worried about is that the day will be too long for him?? I know he is heading towards one nap midday? So needs to get to about 5 hours A time before we get down to one nap? Is that about right?

So for example, if he wakes at 6.30, nap 1 at 10.30 for 1.5 hours (not sure he would actually sleep this long) then next nap 3.30-4 then bedtime 3.5 hours later?? So 7.30ish?? But he takes so long to actually get to sleep I am worried that it will be a late bedtime for him and then it will be trouble.

Or the other option is to wake him at 6.15 so nap one is 10.15?

So the day would look like this:
Wu- 6.15 (wake him if not awake and if he wakes earlier still treat it as 6.15 Wu) nap 1 10.15 (in bed at 10am??) for hopefully 1.5 hours nap 2 3pm (in bed 2.45) for 35 mins and bed 7pm in bed aim to be asleep by 7.15 then it is a 13 hour day??
A times would be: Wu- 6.15. First A time- 4 hours (in bed at 3h45), 2nd A - 3.5 (in bed at 3hours15) 3rd A - 3.5 (in bed at 3hours15)

He actually did really well yesterday on 7.5 hours awake. He did take almost an hour to go to sleep and was hysterical at points but slept through without a peep until 6.10 which I wasn't expecting at all!

Thanks Hun x

Maybe we need to set this for

Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2015, 14:03:28 pm »
Just an update, he slept for an hour and 20 this morning. I put him in bed after 3 hours 15 and he has been fighting it and looks like he is going to skip this nap again!

I'm not sure what I can do to get him to take this second nap? I can't apop a car nap as I don't drive. It is so frustrating as I know he needs more than one nap a day and more than an hour 10/20 a day.

X

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2015, 18:37:27 pm »
Hey hun, sorry for another update!

Just to say that harry finally took his nap at 3.20, almost 4 hours after his first nap wu and had 35 minutes and went to sleep at 7.20 tonight after an A time of 3 hours and 25.

So confusing as I am not sure if he needs longer for his second nap too but makes the day a bit long (although today wasn't too bad in the end)

Just wanted to update xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2015, 19:12:55 pm »
Actually hun that's not bad at all! It's not unusual for days to get rather long during a transition. I've heard some do 14hr days, but that's just not for me, that's why I kept chopping down that pm nap and went cold turkey to one nap at 10.5-11mo!!

A wise BW once told me to check their average sleep during a day before the transition. You were getting around 2hrs a day DT sleep (give or take). If he only takes 1hr 20/30, just do BT the time that he's missing, so 30-40mins earlier. That really helped me throughout the transition. There were days I did a 6pm BT (we used to have a 7pm BT). It is yucky all the inconsistency but that way you're doing everything you can.

Wrt the waking earlier, that's totally up to you. Personally I wouldn't as 6.30am is our wu in this house. I tried for months to get it to 7 with no avail  ;).

I would pd for nap around 5mims before A time is up so around 3hrs 55mins. I totally think he can handle it. Then let's increase that second A to 3.5hrs instead of the 3hrs 15mins. Hopefully he'll be slightly more tired to take that nap.

So let's work on a 6.30am wu  ;)

Wu 6.30
A 4hrs
S 1hr 20-30. (10.30-12)
A 3.5hrs
S 40mims (3.30-4.10)
A 3hrs 20
S BT (7.30)

Obviously the day might sway here and there. If he takes longer to fall asleep for second nap, I would cap it at 30mims or even 20mims just to get to a reasonable BT. It might also mean the last A might need to be reduced slightly too just because they can't go as long on less sleep.

If he refuses his second nap, try and keep him in his bed for as long as possible as long as he's not unhappy. I used to do this with DD. She'd play around up there for 20mims, then sometimes fall asleep, sometimes not. But as lomg as she was just singing and messing about, I'd leave her there for 25mins and get her up and do low-key A until BT. I do think that quiet time helps. Then I do BT at 6 or 6.15 xx



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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2015, 11:27:46 am »
Hi Kelly :)

Thanks again for your help.

I really like that schedule thanks for that, day one of trying it today. We decided to let him wake naturally and he woke at 6.35 which was great, so good not having the early wakes!

But, he went down at 10.28 and he is still asleep!! I didn't want to wake him and cap the nap if he needs it but not quite sure what to do for the rest of the day as I am not sure what we do now. lol. I think we may have to do what you said about him just having quiet time about 3.45/4pm as I highly doubt he will take that second nap and then an earlier bt maybe 6pm? Or is that too late? do you class the quiet time as A time or sleep time? The thing I'm worried about is him going to bed early and then he will wake early again and will worry about doing a 10.30 nap if he has been awake for a long time?? I was just getting used to the 6.30 wake ups.

It is fab that he is having a long nap, he has only ever had a two hour nap once!! Although I am thrown a bit now lol. With the waking later and the longer nap I am thinking he is closer to the transition than I thought?? Or could just be a phase. Thinking I may need to wake him at 12.30. Eeekk! I am not sure.

I'm thrown now. lol. Been wanting him to have a longer morning nap for ages and now I don't know what to do. lol. This is weird! It is probably just a one off.

x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2015, 18:22:01 pm »
How did the  rest of the day go hun?

It's a really difficult one. I struggled with this too. Unfortunately in order to fit in a pm nap, you might have to wake him until we can get that first nap closer to 11.30/12. Problem always is if they refuse the second nap, then you feel you've done them a disservice waking them up from the nap.

It's also hard wrt to BT. What we do need to remember is that far too long of an A to BT will cause OT early NW's, but this is part and parcel of the 2-1 anyways. I would count the down time in bed as A as he's not asleep, but I do think it helps them rest a little and not be so stimulated for a bit. In my mind, I was offering the nap, it was up to her to take it yk? Xx




Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2015, 20:01:59 pm »
It wasn't too bad thanks hun.

He refused the second nap, as I thought he would. But he stayed in his cot for over 30 minutes just resting a bit. I know what you mean about waking him, I am glad I woke him at the 2 hour mark but I woke him from a deep sleep and he was so cranky for a while. But i feel the same that if I woke him earlier and he was to refuse that second nap anyway, I wouldn't want him to miss out on sleep he would've taken.

I think tomorrow I am going to cap the nap to make sure he is awake by 12pm regardless of what time he went to sleep, that way we can still attempt a second nap that isn't too late and still have a reasonable bedtime!
He was asleep by 6.15 tonight so nearly an A of 6 hours unfortunately so I am expecting an ew tomorrow and maybe some nw's. Haven't heard from him yet which is good.

This 2-1 transition is tricky! I am hoping it isn't too long and drawn out and I'm hoping the actual skipping of nap 2 doesn't go on for too long otherwise I may need to move quicker on getting him onto one nap. Although I don't want him to be too OT and ruch him into it.

You may have told me before, so I'm sorry if you have, but why did you decide to go cold turkey on the transition??

Thanks x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2015, 18:43:04 pm »
You're doing just fine hun, it's just so hard to judge it all sometimes.

We went ct to one nap because I was fed up of all the uncertainty and constantly driving around to get her to sleep for her pm nap. By the time she was refusing it more often that not, I jumped the first A by 30mins every few days as I knew she could handle it.

We were on wu at 6.30am too so this is what I did. I set the nap for 11.30 and let her sleep as lomg as she liked (usually 1.5hrs around then). BT was at 6.15. I held that for around 2 weeks I think and I kept getting ENW's so knew I had to reduce the last A, but there was no way I could put her to bed much earlier as I knew she'd only sleep 11hrs max. So then I pushed it to 12pm and kept BT the same. Think we had a odd 2hr nap around then but mostly 1.5hr. Still had ENW's. Found out she had to be asleep by 5hrs A last thing and she started taking 30mins to go to sleep at BT around now. That drove me crazy as nothing I did sorted that out. She still does it now. As long as she's happy, I think she's just relaxing ready for sleep.

Anyhoo, I still couldn't get 2hr naps reliably so I pushed it again to 12.30pm set nap and bam we got 2-2.5hr naps! BT was pushed back to 6.45 for asleep by 7.15. Stayed that way for a few weeks and then had to start capping the nap at 2hrs (think I was just being greedy  ;)). BT was 7 for asleep by 7.30, 11hrs ONS and 2hr nap until quite recently in fact.

There were bad days as there always are. Some days we had emw and I knew she couldn't make it to her usual nap time, so I used to go to the supermarket on those days at 9am and let her have 15mims in the car just to get her to usual nap time. It was the complete opposite I did earlier on in the transiiton wih a longer first nap/shorter second, but in my mind, she was still going down for her usual nap at her usual time so I was being consistent. That 15mims in the car earlier just helped her through and I wasn't putting her to bed for it yk?

It just took all the guess work out of it for me, I found it so much easier doing it this way, but as you can see it took some tweaking! Does that help? I'll be back in a mo for a link for you that saved my sanity more than once!! Xx

Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 18:44:43 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2015, 10:04:19 am »
Thank you for the info hun. It is really interesting, i think that is the way I am going to have to do it eventually.

Interesting about the set naps too. I think that is something that may work for us, even with two naps as at the moment it is all over the place.

We had two days of 6.30 wu's and 10.30 nap but by the time he actually took his second nap, his bedtime was getting later and later and he started to only have 9.5-10.5 hours sleep for a few days which has now resulted in a 5.30am wu again for a few days and I can't stretch him to 10.30am first nap. Even closer to 10am and we are back to an hour and 10 max nap for first nap! argh!

So, now I'm not sure what to do to get that first nap longer and am wondering if that first nap time of hour and ten is more of an ot nap now. No idea how to tweak it now!

I hate all this uncertainty too although I don't feel like he is ready for one nap just yet, especially as i read that when they start walking they really tire themselves out and need that extra nap. But I think that the second nap is causing all of these issues.

So frustrating! It is really getting me down and I am obsessed about his naps and what to do to tweak the schedule etc.

Thanks and sorry for moaning! xx

Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2015, 10:17:15 am »
Maybe i should write down the last few days naps etc? x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2015, 18:16:30 pm »
I'd actually push that first nap out more now hun. He's really showing signs of wanting to drop that nap. It's either that, or you could try putting him down for the nap at the same time, but capping it to 30mins and seeing if he'll then take a second nap 3.5hrs later?

Many have done it that second way round, I never could get the A time right for DD as you could manage a full A time on a short nap, so either way our day was too long. It does work for many though, especially with those refusing the second nap. Wdyt? Worth a go for a few days to see if you can get a longer second nap? Xx



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2015, 19:54:43 pm »
Do you mean push the A time? So push it to what 4.15h?

I see what you're saying and does sound good but I'd be really worried actually about capping that nap and messing with it as that is always the best nap and he has rarely had a longer afternoon nap, he generally only ever has about 35-40 mins on an afternoon so if i capped nap one at 30 mins and he only had a short nap again in the afternoon then he would only be getting around an hour a day which is nowhere near enough.

I'm really not sure what to do, I'm guessing I need to push him out to a nap at about 11.30/12 before I can drop that second nap totally which we are still a way off, especially with those emw's creeping back in.

It seems that he will take his afternoon nap closer to 4 hours even with a just over an hour nap in the morning.

Today he randomly woke from his morning nap after an hour and went back to sleep after ten minutes for 55 minutes which was weird, he obviously then skipped his second nap and had to have an early bedtime but was still worked out to be an A time of 6 hours and 5 minutes which is way too long.

I am really hating the uncertainty but not sure how I can speed up the process without him getting really OT. Plus I am worried about rushing it in case it is maybe something else causing the issues and getting rid of the nap is too early.

Argh! x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2015, 05:52:30 am »
It really all is a guessing game hun, we can only look at the signs.

I'd actually push it out to 4.5hrs hun, I know that's a big jump, but if he won't go down for a nap for the pm after 4 hrs after only an hr nap then I'm sure he can go longer after a night sleep yk? I think the A time is reasonably close for now as he did go back to sleep, the extra time might help see him over the sleep cycle transition better.

As I said before, I'm more scared of UT before a nap because there's no way of getting them back to sleep. Since that's your main and perhaps only nap now, pushing it really is the logical thing to do to try and get a longer nap in. And hey, if he does take a short OT nap first thing, there will be more of a chance of getting him to take a pm nap wdyt? Xx



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2015, 20:01:36 pm »
Hi hun

I have just realised I haven't updated or gone on here for two weeks!

So, Harry has been poorly from his jabs and teething (getting his molars through on both sides) which has caused his naps to go a bit crazy, short naps one day and mammoth long naps the next but he seems tired all the time at the moment and has massive meltdowns after 3h45 because he is so tired. Although he is getting a bit better so not sure if this tiredness is a side effect from the jabs.

Anyway, I just wanted to talk about how we are going to get him down to one nap. I think at the moment, he is not capable of handling longer than maybe 4-4.5 hours A time without it causing emw's and nw's I don't think, although haven't actually tried this.
The other problem is that at the moment he is waking around 5.30 so it is difficult to stretch that first A time to get it even remotely close to 11.30/12 to be able to then drop him down to one nap in time.

I want to try and hold onto these two naps for a bit longer if we can if he is still taking two naps but want to stretch his A time slowly.

Thanks hun x

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2015, 18:48:20 pm »
Welcome back! So sorry he's been poorly  :(

The EW will be a result of the morning nap being too early hun. That and the teething of course  ::)

You could look at keeping the second A time as is, but stretching that first A slowly. Maybe by 15mins, holding for a week, then stretching again. It will mean your day gets a bit longer for a while, but capping that second nap will help with that.

Want to post your current easy for me and we can make a plan? Xx



Offline Sarahkinso

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2015, 19:00:49 pm »
Hiya

Yes, I am thinking we do need to extend that first A but I'm just worried about him then refusing to take that second nap once his first nap ends closer to midday.
The other issue is that he seems to wake at 5.30-6 regardless of what time he goes to bed so with the later bedtime (because the day is stretched due to the longer A times) he has only been having around 10.5 hours sleep a night which I don't think is enough.

So, we haven't got much of a schedule at the moment but this is roughly it:

Wu - 5.30-6ish
A- 4 hours (sometimes more if he wakes at 5ish)
Nap 1- anytime between about 9.30-10 but usually closer to 10 especially if he has had a good night's sleep. Nap length varies from 35 minutes- 2 hours
A - 3.5-4 hours (depending on length of previous nap, have been putting him to bed around 3 h 30 and tends to be asleep by 3 h 45 but sometimes closer to 4 hours)
Nap 2 - Anytime between 2.30-3.30 Nap length varies between 35 mins-1 hour (always wake by 4pm)
A time between 3.25-3.5 hours (out in bed around 3 hours 10 and falls asleep by 3.5 hours most nights)
Bedtime - Asleep anytime between 6.30-7.30 (sometimes later if he has woken close to 4)

Hope that all makes sense?

Thanks hun xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2015, 19:19:03 pm »
Yep, that makes sense.. Looks like a 2-1 type routine where there is no routine  ;)

If you extend the first A, you'll have to wake him up at 1.5hrs in order to fit in a nap later on in the day.

Is he always doing 10.5hrs ONS these days? 11hrs or slightly under would be quite normal especially if he's having 2hrs + day time sleep.

Ok, these A times look good and show us a lot. We'll keep that 3.5 hrs to BT as that obviously works. We might need to reduce that in future if we start capping that pm nap, but it's a great place to start.

We need to start pushing that first A hun, we can go slowly but let's add 15mins on and see how we go? Cap the nap at 1.5hrs if he makeshift that far. Keep the 3hrs 45 A for nap two, cap at 45mims so he wakes at 4 as previous.

So looking something like this:

Wu 5.45 (average)
A 4hrs 15mins
S 10-11.30
A 3hrs 45mins
S 3.15-4
A 3hrs 30mins
BT 7.30 (asleep by)

Wdyt? Xx

Eta do you notice when he does a longer A in the morning after a 5am wu that's when you get the 2hr nap??
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 19:21:28 pm by Kellyjs »