NW's and sleep all over the place. Please help!

[Sarahkinso]

Hi hun

Thank you once again for your brilliant advice, how do you know so much about this? Just from your own experience? you are very knowledgable

So, today he woke at 5.30am and we put him in the cot at 9.30, he took five mins to sleep and had an hour and 35 minute nap! But then it went to pot and he completely refused his second nap until 3.40 and we had to rock him. So we cut his last A time to 2 hours 50 and that worked a treat with him going to sleep the fastest he has in absolutely ages. But, that first nap was great and that was an A time of 4 hours and 5 as he definietly woke at 5.30am.

So I am thinking we actually do need to shorten that last A time perhaps even to 2 hours 40/50 in the cot so he is asleep by 3 hours. Hmm, think some trialling with that one may help. Any idea how we can tell when he is totally ready for the trainistion to one nap? I definitely do not want to push him into it and hope he doesn't trainisition for a good few months yet, but just so i know what to look out for.

i still haven't had chance to properly read the link but I do think that he prefers a longer first nap and shorter second nap with a shorter A time for bed.

Is it ok to have the longest A time first thing? I always thought it should be the other way around and have the shortest A time first thing, then getting longer through the day. Harry seems to do best the opposite though and often does better on a shorter A time before bed, but that could be because he often has a short second nap.

So, what do you think of this plan:

WU: Before 6, first nap 9.30
WU: After 6, first nap 3.75 A time
second nap, 3.5 hours A time (or maybe longer to make him extend his nap?!? But don't want to make him too ot) and bedtime 3hours

Or should we just say, first nap 9.45, regardless of wake? But then, if he wakes at something like 6.20am or so I'm not sure when we would put him down, I'm wondering if he needs longer than 3.5hours for first A time to get a good nap.

The other thing is, do I put him down 10/15 minutes before the end of the A time so 3.5 hours for a 3.75 A time? (does that even make sense?) He can take anywhere between 5 minutes to 30+ minutes to go to sleep.

Sorry for the confusion and going back and forth, just want to get a plan together where we are consistent with times and A times. So frustrating trying to work it all out!

Thanks Kelly x

[Kellyjs]

It's much easier to see patterns when you're not in the middle of it hun. I still need help with my LO as it gets so confusing! That's the beauty of the forums 

You're definitely in the middle of the 2-1. Refusing the second nap is a very good indicator of this. You did the perfect thing in shortening the last A. Mine was doing 2.5hrs last A after a 45mins nap (quickly capped to 30mins) to BT. I had to keep capping that last nap as it was taking her longer to go down for it and I didn't want the day to get too long.

The idea with the 2-1 is to watch for the warning signs. EW is his way of telling you he needs a longer A first thing, just like mine did and many others too. It's perfectly ok to have it this way round. Even others during the 2-1 may have a long first A too, but also cap that nap to hope for a longer nap in the afternoon.

I would keep that first A at 4hrs as he obviously did a good nap there, irrelevant of what time he wakes. The key is to be consistent so he knows that'd he's not going to get a nice long nap soon after waking up in the morning to try and discourage these early WU's. I would keep the second A at 3.5hrs and hope for a short nap, then do the 2hrs 40/50 to BT. I would hold this for at least 3 days and see if he settles into it for awhile.

Do remember though, this is a transition and he's likely to want to switch things up again pretty quickly. But I think if he can learn the new A times he may accept the second nap albeit an UT one. You may also need to apop that second nap here and there like you did yesterday. This is totally ok  as long as you're not doing it for every nap and BT. We do what we can to get through these transitions. I will never gets stroppy about cars driving slowly on motorways again... I know now the majority of them will be trying to get a LO to sleep!! 

[Sarahkinso]

Very true, this forum is fab!

Well, I had a look at the indicators of the tranisition and he is not actually refusing his nap, he just fights it for ages. I think with the last A time, it is dependent on the nap length. But then it doesn't become consistent and we go back to random bed times and A times.

Today was a bit odd, we tried to stretch the first A time to 3.75 as he woke at 6am but only had a short 35 minute nap which was really weird. So i then set the next A time at 3.5 hours and he slept an hour and ten. I was hoping for a lot longer. Are there particular nap lengths that suggest UT or OT? Then we set the third A time for 2h50 (in bed) but he took 40 minutes to go to sleep, eventually having an A time of 3.5 hours. That may have been because his nap was a bit longer.

I am still so confused as to what to do.

I think you could be right about stretching that first A time to 4 hours. Or do I set a first nap time? Maybe we need to do 10am first nap and then if he wakes earllier then stick with 10 but then if he wakes at 5.30 then that will be 4.5 hours. Or do we just say 4 hours from whatever wu is?

The other thing I am unsure of what to do is when to actually put him to bed. When we say 4 hours A time, is that asleep by 4 hours or in the cot at 4 hours?? he can take anywhere from 5-40 minutes to sleep which makes it difficult to know when to put him into bed.

Sorry, i am going round in circles right now, just struggling to find a consistent plan as there are so many what ifs and what to do when he has a short nap or a longer nap than expected, that is when i am thrown and starts getting inconsitent and he has random A times.

Lol, very true about the car drivers going slow! I don't drive at the moment (I am learning) so haven't experienced the desperate car drive to get him to sleep, although I have experienced the loooong pram walks to get him to sleep, for him to fall asleep as we get to the house! lol 

Thanks Kelly, sorry for keeping going back and forth with this, as you said I'm expecting lots of changes with the transition but struggling to keep up! lol xx

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly

Just a quick update following my post yesterday. Today was worse than today and I am wondering if i am stretching him too far. The day looked like this:

wu: 5-6 (heard him at 5am then 5.15, 5.40, 6am and when we went in at 6.10 he was laying down trying to get back to sleep but wouldn't have had a restorative sleep from 5am)
Nap 1: 9.33-10.05 (30 minutes)
Nap 2: 2.25- 2.55 (30 minutes) had to go out to attend a baby group/course and couldn't get back until then so his A time was a lot more than I would have done if I was at home but I couldn't cancel.
Bedtime: 5.30 in bed but he was sick so had to give him a quick bath and he went to sleep at 6pm.

So, is a 30 minute nap an indication of overtiredness? This is day 2 of a 30 minute first nap which is making me wonder if that first A is actually too long. The problem is we are unsure of when he properly wakes.

or it could be the short naps are down to the ww or he may be under the weather as he has been very upset today, i thought it was down to the lack of sleep but then he was sick so I am unsure.

Just thought I'd update you before you reply  xx

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply hun, I'm with family this week. It does sound like he's poorly so I'd just go with the flow. 30mins nap can be indicative of OT but they can be easy enough to resettle and I'm surprised he had 2 is one day so I'm thinking the fact he's feeling under the weather must be playing a part in it.

Let me know how it goes tomorrow. Usually they settle down after a day or two if sick and then we can reassess xx

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly

Hope  you had a nice time with family and thanks for replying, you didn't have to do that if you were/are busy or away.

So, I'm not sure if he was poorly or if it is this ww causing problems. The other thing is he could be too hot, it has been so hot in his room the last couple of weeks. He has started extending his morning nap again which is great, it was cooler yesterday and we put him in less clothes this morning. However, we are having big issues with his second nap again and he is only having half an hour -40 mins at the most and he wakes hysterical and stays hysterical/cranky with lots of tears and tantrums for the rest of the afternoon until he goes to bed.

So, yesterday looked like this:
wu: 6.10 Nap 1: 9.50-11.05 (1 hour 15) Nap 2: 2.40-3.20 (40 mins) Bedtime: 6.30 (asleep, put in cot at 2h50)

Today looked like this:
wu: 6.05 Nap 1: 9.45-11.05 (1h20) Nap 2: 2.45-3.15 (30 mins) Bedtime: 6.20 (asleep, put in cot 2h50)

As you can see, we haven't been doing the 4h A time for nap 1 as yet as I'm worried we are stretching him too far and haven't been stretching him too much for nap 2 either, he shows tired signs at 3h5-10 after nap 1 and then just goes hyper if we leave him much past 3h30.

I am toying with capping nap 1 and seeing if that means he will have a longer nap 2 but I think he needs longer than that at that time of the day and I worry that if nap 2 is less restoritive (I think I read this can happen at this age) then I don't want to mess with the one good nap he has, if that makes sense?? He seems to naturally have a longer morning nap and a shorter pm nap but it seems to be causing him to be extremely cranky these last few days, he didn't seem too bothered by his short nap before which is why I'm wondering if it is wonder week related or if it something we need to tweak, he is such a mess on an afternoon it is horrible to see, he clearly needs to have a longer nap in the afternoon but no idea how to get him to do that.

Thanks Kelly
Sarah

[Kellyjs]

Ok, I'm back to the land of the living!

How's it going now hun?

You could look at actually shortening the second A and see if that helps any? It may be that that second A is too short too get a long nap in but also may be that slight bit too long that he's not waking up happy after it. I do think we should aim for a short second nap at this age, but it's finding the right time that suits him. It would mean lengthening that first A though in order for your day not to shorten too much. Wdyt? X

[Sarahkinso]

hi hun

Ah, welcome back 

Not too bad thanks, yesterday was strange, we were out and didn't manage to get him to sleep until 3h40 for the second nap so I thought I would let him have a short nap and didn't go in to help extend and he had an hour! I am now wondering if going in at 30 mins is disturbing him if he has a lighter sleep at this time of day so going to try again to leave him to it and see what happens. It may just have been a fluke though! But will see. I'm not sure again what to have that second A time as. The first nap of the day was only an hour and 10 so may have been slightly UT for that one. Again we are having trouble knowing when he wakes and when to start his A time from as we hear him on and off and it goes quiet and he tends to be laying down in the cot still when we go in rather than up at the side of the cot.

I am worried about stretching him but at the same time know that when he does transition down to one nap he needs to be able to handle A times of 5 hours plus? How do we get to that point in just a few months??

So, I think we are going to aim for a 3hour45 A time first thing getting closer to 4 hours then not sure about second A time and third A time we tend to wing it. Again, I worry about us doing such a short A time at this time wondering how he will cope when he has one nap when he is used to a shorter A time to bed if that makes sense?!?

Thanks kelly x

[Kellyjs]

Don't worry too much hun, they tend to up their ability to cope with longer A's in spurts! If you wanted a shorter A to BT, yes the first A will have to be closer to 5.5hrs ish, but remember this is a transition. Some days he may handle it, others you may have to apop a car nap or something to get you through.

When we were on one nap most days, I had to apop a quick 15mins car nap in around 9am if I thought she wasn't going to make it to her usual nap time. In my mind, I wasn't putting her to bed so effectively we were still on one nap iykwim?

You'll know when he's ready to increase his A time, he might be showing you signs already by taking UT nap first thing. You can gradually increase the A time by 15mins hold for a few days or a week so he gets used to it and increase again if you feel he's ready.

What I said in my first paragraph... I just wanted to give you an example. Recently my DD has chopped her sleep needs down drastically. We've lost over 2hrs a day, it just happened all of a sudden. Within 2mths. I kept pushing her to have more sleep, but she doesn't need it. With the help from others on here, it just helped me realise I was fighting a losing battle  xx

[Sarahkinso]

Hi Kelly

Ugh! Things have gone from bad to worse.

I don't know if it is because it is 'stormy week' in this ww leap, plus he has had a cold and is teething and it is hoooot but he is all over the place. I can't help but think we are doing something wrong and making lots of little mistakes. I don't feel like we really have much of a schedule and he is crying at most naptimes and BT and we are getting EWs again - 5-5.30 almost every day for the last two weeks. He is fighting the second nap so much and have had two days where is has skipped it totally, even with trying to apop a car nap today he still fought his nap so hard that we had to skip it in the end.

He is waking again throughout the night again and needing to be rocked back to sleep (for the last three nights running).

I'm not entirely sure what to do next, we finally had a longer nap this morning by putting him down at 9.25 as he woke at 5.30 but sometimes we are not sure when he wakes as we hear him but he snoozes on and off until we go in to get him up after 6am.

Any ideas?!?! xx

[Kellyjs]

What's the last few days looked like hun? Would you mind posting them for me to see what we can do.

Colds and teething are horrible and don't help with sleep either so I feel for you x

[Sarahkinso]

Sorry for the silence. We had a really good two days after I posted. He had an hour and 40 min nap followed by 35 minute nap on two consecutive days and the early wu's disappeared too but it has been so up and down since then.

It is just this second nap becoming a problem and he has now gone back to having a shorter (just over an hour-hour and 15 max) first nap on a morning! Argh. He has skipped nap 2 about 3 times in the space of just over a week or he fights it so much that it becomes quite late and he has a later bedtime. All this is causing him to be awake for a long time before bed (when he skips the nap) and having night wakings early on the night where he struggles to settle without being rocked.

Anyway, here are the last few days:

Sat 4th July:
Wu- 5.40 nap 1- 9.45-10.50 nap 2- 3.05-3.55 bedtime- 7.20 (asleep)
Sun 5th July:
Wu- 6.25 nap 1- 10.05-11.20 nap 2- 2.50-3.20 bedtime - 7.15 (asleep)
Mon 6th July:
Wu- 6.30 (had to wake him) nap 1- 10.13-11.15 nap 2- skipped. Put in cot at 2.35, cried and wouldn't settle, got him up at 3.20 after giving up as he was hysterical for most of the time. Bedtime- put to bed at 6pm, cried - hysterically - finally settled at 7.40

He skipped second nap last sat (27th) and weds (1st) and takes around 30-40 minutes to go to sleep some days for nap 2.

I know he is in transition but I am hoping there is something I can do to help him and make it better?!?!
He is also cutting his molars I think on top and bottom but giving calpol doesn't seem to help much. We have only been giving it at night though so maybe I need to give it before a nap too but he doesn't seem in pain too much any other time of the day.

Thanks x

[Kellyjs]

I'd try ibuprofen for teeth hun, it works much better. Calpol do their version.

That first A needs pushing again, especially as the main nap is getting shorter. The idea is to preserve that nap at all costs! 

I'd jump that first A to 4hrs straight away. It will need more I'm thinking, but that's a good place to start. It really is the best thing you can do for him hun. He needs to have that nice long nap in there.

I would also keep trying for a second nap but at 3.5hrs A. Even the quiet time in bed helps them, even if they don't actually sleep ok. All else fails, and you feel he's not going to make it to BT without a CN you can always apop a quick car nap in the car for 15mims just to get him to a reasonable BT. If he doesn't take a CN, you can always use EBT. Don't be too afraid of it, many LO's tack on the sleep they've missed as long as you don't try and push BT too late. If he's had a decent first nap, there's more of a chance he will be able to get through the day.

The thing is with the 2-1, some days they'll take that second nap and you think you've cracked it. The next, they refuse,it and you drive yourself crazy thinking they'll be OT forever. They won't. Remember, I'm telling you all this because I've thought the exact same thing. There will be some good days and bad, but we need to keep pushing that first A, as two UT naps will only cause you more grief in the nighttime and no one wants that! X

[Sarahkinso]

Thank you again for your fab help Hun.

Ok, so have given ibruprofen and pushed out the first a to almost 4 hours. I'm not sure when to actually put him in bed so he is asleep by 4 hours, maybe at 3h45 A. That is pretty much what I have done this morn and he went straight to sleep so not sure that is good.

The other thing I am worried about is that the day will be too long for him?? I know he is heading towards one nap midday? So needs to get to about 5 hours A time before we get down to one nap? Is that about right?

So for example, if he wakes at 6.30, nap 1 at 10.30 for 1.5 hours (not sure he would actually sleep this long) then next nap 3.30-4 then bedtime 3.5 hours later?? So 7.30ish?? But he takes so long to actually get to sleep I am worried that it will be a late bedtime for him and then it will be trouble.

Or the other option is to wake him at 6.15 so nap one is 10.15?

So the day would look like this:
Wu- 6.15 (wake him if not awake and if he wakes earlier still treat it as 6.15 Wu) nap 1 10.15 (in bed at 10am??) for hopefully 1.5 hours nap 2 3pm (in bed 2.45) for 35 mins and bed 7pm in bed aim to be asleep by 7.15 then it is a 13 hour day??
A times would be: Wu- 6.15. First A time- 4 hours (in bed at 3h45), 2nd A - 3.5 (in bed at 3hours15) 3rd A - 3.5 (in bed at 3hours15)

He actually did really well yesterday on 7.5 hours awake. He did take almost an hour to go to sleep and was hysterical at points but slept through without a peep until 6.10 which I wasn't expecting at all!

Thanks Hun x

Maybe we need to set this for

[Sarahkinso]

Just an update, he slept for an hour and 20 this morning. I put him in bed after 3 hours 15 and he has been fighting it and looks like he is going to skip this nap again!

I'm not sure what I can do to get him to take this second nap? I can't apop a car nap as I don't drive. It is so frustrating as I know he needs more than one nap a day and more than an hour 10/20 a day.

X