Dream Feed-5 month baby waking

[ljearnshaw]

Hello Everyone,

I'm very new to EASY and have found this forum a fantastic resource. I now hope you can help me after a challenging night with my 5 month old baby last night.

We are now on day 4 of the EASY plan which we started to assist us with LO's nap time issues (difficulty going down/only napping 30 mins) We have seen huge success in this area, yesterday he did 2x 1.5hr naps and a 40 min catnap. Hooray! 

My challenge is now the night time which was never an issue before! Previous to EASY he had been sleeping 7pm-4:30am with just one or two wake ups in between to pop the soother back in. The 4:30 wake up was a feed, he would then often go back to sleep for another hour or so 5-6:45.

As per the book we decided to try and get him sleeping through to 7am so we can follow the EASY plan so we started Dream Feeds.....oh dear! I am doing the DF in the bedroom no lights, talking or nappy changing. He's straight up and back down into bassinet. I should also mention that we have taken away the soother. LO is using his thumb now so I tend to leave one arm out the swaddle or sometimes use a grow bag. Heres is a break down of the last 3 nights:


DAY ONE- DF successful (no wake up)
11pm DF
1:30am wakes (fell asleep within 10mins)
2:30 wakes (fell asleep within 10mins)
4:30 wakes (crying PUPD, pat/shhhh)
6:05-6:15 sleep
6:25-6:40 sleep
6:50 EAT (He's breastfed exclusively)

DAY TWO
11:30 DF (wakes 10 mins to sleep)
2:15 wakes (fell asleep within 5 mins)
4:45 wakes (pat/sshhh)
5:30-6 sleep
6-7 (PUPD, Pat shhh quiet from 6:30)
7am EAT

DAY THREE
DF 10:30 (wakes)
11pm sleep
11:45 wakes (pat, sshhh, falls into REM multiple times)
2:45 sleep
3:20 wakes and EAT (I couldn't help it! showed signs of hunger and ate well)  (pat,shhh to sleep)
3:40 sleep
6:20 wakes (PUPD, pat shhh)
6:50 EAT

As you can see Ive gone from having great sleeps at night to a downward spiral! I understand that breaking habitual waking will be a process which I don't mind at all but I would love to hear your thoughts on this DF. Should I continue? My concern is that Im creating MORE habitual wake ups and perhaps the DF just doesn't work for him? If I do stop the DF's what sort of a plan would you recommend going into the day?

THANK YOU in advance! This is my first time posting on a forum and I'd love to hear your thoughts. If someone is able to write before tonight I'd be so grateful as I really don't know what to do! 

[newkidontheblock]

Hello and welcome
Hmm, you're right. The DF seems to be disrupting his sleep cycle and causing issues through the night. Tracy does talk of this happening but at around 7 months. I have two suggestions - First, Tracy says to do the DF between 10 & 11 - I noticed you did it at 11.30 on one night. I did it around that time for my DD once and it completely unsettled her. She tossed and turned for ages that night. Since doing it at 10.30 & 11 also has the same results, I would suggest trying it earlier, at 10.  Secondly, if it is possible, you could doing the DF with expressed milk in a bottle. That way DH can help you out and it is much easier.

Finally, though, if you do find this continuing, I would suggest that you try to up his intake during the day and feed when he wakes at night, instead of doing a DF. In another month solids will also come into play and hopefully soon after, his entire intake of milk & solids during the day will help him to go longer at night.

Also, you mentioned that you just started with EASY - these wakings might be related to your routine? If you like, you could post your routine in EASY format for us to take a look at. Also if you could mention what your days looked like before starting on EASY:)

[ljearnshaw]

Oh my goodness can I just say that seeing your response really made my day. Yesterday was challenging again and having the support is so lovely!

Last night I ended up going with your second suggestion and skipped the DF as I was terrified of another bad night and creating more habitual waking. He stirred between 10:30-12:30 (pretty much self soother back to sleep) and was up at is usual 5am for a feed.

I would love your thoughts on my EASY routine as I must admit I find myself questioning what Im doing a lot. Our biggest challenge at the moment is getting past the dreaded 40 mins for naps. I find if I can get him back to sleep with sssh/pat within the first 10 mins he'll sleep another hour if not we get into PU/PD and that rarely ends in success. Yesterday we were in the nursery for 4 hours before he took a 20 minute nap! I found he kept jolting himself awake. He was swaddled for his first 3 months and loved it but I can't fully swaddle now as he loves to suck his thumb (having just had his soother evicted) so I often find his happier in the grow bag. I usually do 1.5 hrs of Pat/S before taking a 10 min break with him and starting again. Is this right? And if I get to the end of S time with no or very little nap should I put him down again or just wait until next nap time?

Below is our EASY format based on today. As we're new to it every day has been different, the best being day 3 when he did 2 x 1.5 hour naps and a 40 min in the late afternoon...we thought we'd cracked it!

LAST NIGHT
7pm Bed -Went down easily
10:30-12:30- Stirring/Self soothed back to sleep
5am -Wake and Feed

E-7am
A-7:30
S-8:35-10:50 (Fell asleep after 10 mins. Woke 9:25 Pat/S-10am) 1h35 total
E-11am
A-11:20
S-12:45-1:25 (Fell asleep after 10 mins then Pat/S and PUPD) 40 mins total Sleep
A-2:15
S-2:25-3 (Pat/S and PUPD) No sleep
E-3pm
A-3:30
S-4:55-5:40 (Fell asleep after 5 mins)
A-5:40
E-6:30
A-7pm (Massage, change clothes)
S-7:10 (Pat, very calm)

Id love to hear your thoughts  particularly on getting him past the 40 mins and if we're using Pat/S PUPD correctly. Also may I ask.... Should I always feed after a nap even if he wakes 20 mins early or wait until scheduled time? And when he wakes both night and nap time is it best to go to him straight away or wait a few minutes?

We've also moved him to the crib tonight and so far he's doing well. Previously he was napping in crib but in the bassinet in our room at night.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for taking the time!!! Its so appreciated!

[ljearnshaw]

Hello again,

I was just reading up and I realize that his cry is often a Mantra cry. It say no PUPD with this but would you recommend I leave the room or stay with him?

[newkidontheblock]

Hi Laura:)
So I've had a look at your routine and I had a few suggestions. Firstly, hun, the A times are too low for his age. At 5 months, they would be a little over 2 hours. He probably has a hard time getting to sleep/doing a long nap as he is not tired enough. At 4 months, they move to longer A times and drop a nap. So basically, you are aiming for A somewhere around 2 hours (you will have to figure out his exact A. At 5 months, my DD was doing close to 2.5) with 2 naps of 1.5 -2 hours each + a 30-45 minute catnap. I feel that once you figure out the right A time, it will definitely helps towards him settling independently.
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

Yesterday we were in the nursery for 4 hours before he took a 20 minute nap!

Oh, that's awful. Please don't be so hard on yourselves. If it isn't happening, it isn't happening. Go out, have some more A time and try again in a bit. A few tips though - get a good wind down in place. Keep activities very low key for at least a half hour before the nap - more so as the day progresses. A dark room and white noise work wonders. You mention him jolting a lot - that happens as they go through sleep cycles and it can disturb them when they are over tired.

I usually do 1.5 hrs of Pat/S before taking a 10 min break with him and starting again. Is this right?

No honey, it will just become a prop then. Have you read any of the BW books? Tracy says when starting out, you shush/pat on your shoulder during the wind down, then you can put them in their crib when drowsy and continue to pat/shush while slowly winding it down. The aim is to gradually do less. If you find him waking the moment you stop, then you need to wait a bit longer. She recommends keeping it up for a full 20 minutes to begin with. What we used to do was 4 S wind down, wait for eyes to droop and then lay down in crib and put a hand on her chest. After a while we stopped with the hand and would just leave the room.

I realize that his cry is often a Mantra cry. It say no PUPD with this but would you recommend I leave the room or stay with him?

Is his room dark enough? We have DD's room very dark and it has done wonders for her sleep. She is a spirited little girl and very stimulated by anything and everything. If his room is dark enough, you could sit in a corner and only go to him if he needs help. You could also try putting him down and leaving the room. Let him try and settle himself. If you find his cries escalating, go to him immediately but if it is low grade fuss, give him some time, he might surprise you and settle himself:)  WRT the short naps, I found that if I go into the room at that time and put a hand on DD, she would transition just fine. I did this consistently for 2 weeks and after that I backed off and she did it on her own.

Why don't you take a look at this link? It's everything you need to know Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!

Hope that helps:)

[ljearnshaw]

Well I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I saw this!!! ha ha! Hours of Pat/Ssssh this week and I'm embarrassed to say I HAVE read the book! I misunderstood when Tracey says to continue for 7-10 mins after they have relaxed.

I'm reassessing and diving back in the book again, I've also implemented some of your suggestions already especially with the ACTIVITY. I think you're probably exactly right and he's probably around the 2 hour mark.

I have just one more question regarding for you as you've been so brilliant. As I said LO doesn't scream too much mainly just a bit of fussing sometimes mantra.  I tried your suggestion of leaving but the crying always escalates. In a typical scenario where he's napped 40 mins and I've gone in and patted him for another 20 would you then get him up? I believe I'm to wait until the end of nap cycle? So what would you recommend at that point? He's often just on his side with his eyes wide open! 

Thanks AGAIN!

[newkidontheblock]

I tried your suggestion of leaving but the crying always escalates.

Give it time. At various times, DD has needed DH or me to stay in the room till she falls asleep. DH (lucky bum) used to potter around the room closing curtains, arranging stuff and she would sleep off happy with this presence. We have also sat on a chair near her crib and hummed/sung softly till she slept, putting a heavy hand or patting only if necessary. Then we would slowly move the chair away/ sit on something further away so that she could hear us humming and knew we were there but couldn't see us.

In a typical scenario where he's napped 40 mins and I've gone in and patted him for another 20 would you then get him up? I believe I'm to wait until the end of nap cycle? So what would you recommend at that point? He's often just on his side with his eyes wide open! 

I think you have to assess the situation and figure out the likelihood of him sleeping again. Sometimes you can just tell that they want to sleep more and at other times they are raring to go. Always try to extend the nap though as you want him to clearly understand that you want him to nap longer. Since you are just starting out, it is all the more important to help him understand this. But don't drive yourself crazy trying to extend it. Trust me, it is not worth it. I spent months pat/shushing in a dark room and I was miserable. With a nap under an hour, simply put him down for the next nap a bit sooner - reduce the A by 15-20 minutes:)

One thing that really worked for us to extend naps was sneaking into her room just before the time she would typically wake and putting a heavy hand on her. Usually she would go right back to sleep. If she didn't, we would pat and she would sleep. It worked because we got there before she fully woke up. I found that if I left too soon, she would be up again, so we spent a week just staying in there for the rest of the nap. Then after a week we backed off and she slept through. It also helps to look at A times - if it is hard to extend naps or he wakes refreshed & happy, he might need more A

[ljearnshaw]

Oh Fluer these are amazing tips thank you!  I tried staying in the room with him and just talking to him and am writing to you now from the nursery where after a 25 min nap we  just have the mantra cry happening. On the up side he did do an 1hr 30 nap this morning following your advice of a bit of pat/Sssh. Hooray for small victories!

On the down side my hubby and I after a week are at the end of our rope. I think hubby is ready to quit here. We have gone from 12 hours sleep in the night to being up 5 hours from 11pm to 4am last night and naps are not much better.

Much of this could be the soother being taken away but he just doesn't seem to want to settle. PUPD is not an option as he doesn't cry too much so its pat/sssh for 20 mins at a time and sitting with him in the room. Last night I caved in after 3 hours and fed him as I convinced myself it was a hunger cry. I did cluster feed in the evening with a 5pm and 7pm feed. Such a tricky time at this 5 month stage to know. At least when we had the soother it was a good indicator coz if he went back to sleep we obviously knew he didn't need to eat now we don't know if he just can't settle without PACI.

Tonight we're going back to the DF idea. Hubby going to bottle feed at 10pm as your suggested so at least then Im not tempted to cave in a feed him mid way through the night. I just don't know what to do with him during the night to help him get to sleep. He'll often be on his side sleeping after 20 mins of patting and then wakes right up again.

It feels as though we've gone from a very content baby to a miserable one and Im just in a fog over the whole thing...any encouraging tips appreciated. 

[newkidontheblock]

Well sweetie, you have weaned the soother and you are embarking on a new way of sleeping, so things will be a bit spotty for a while. Those are big changes for a little baby. On the props board, we have a thread of paci weaning success stories- maybe read through them for some ideas? I do think one or even two night feeds are normal at this stage and if feeding him will send him off to dreamland, then why not? Please don't think of it as caving in- they do actually need the feeds. In fact, close to 6 months is a major growth spurt also.
This is probably just the paci weaning but doing a dream feed will at least help to eliminate hunger as a reason if he wakes in the early part of the night.

How did you'll settle him to sleep before this? After 5 months if a different method, it will take time for him to get used to this new way. Please don't lose hope. With consistency and time, he will learn. You can ask DH to also come on here for support and encouragement.

[ljearnshaw]

Hello again

And thank you so much for the encouragement.

I did find I had to step back for a while there with all the researching but good news is that LO is doing great now! We made the decision to give the soother back and that seemed to solve everything. It doesn't seem to be a prop as he pops it out once sleeping. Just instantly calms him. I hope we did the right thing there.

The reason we started EASY was to help with naps and hooray he now naps like a pro! At least 1.5 hrs morning and afternoon. I'm now just trying to take the odd trip out the house as I'm still very strict for him being in the crib. He's great at sleeping on the go so I'm going to try it once or twice a week as in unable to get anything done. Any advice for this?

We are experiencing some NW around 1-4 per night but we give him his soother and he goes right back to sleep. So 7pm bedtime, 10:30 DF which he's now waking up for and I don't feed until 7am. How do you know if he needs the food though the night though??? He's very easy going.

Looks like we are going to introduce solids this week as he's showing interest. Here's our latest EASY routine. I'd live to hear your thoughts.

E-7am
A-7.30
S-9am
E-10.30
A-11am
S-1pm
E-2:30/3pm
A-3pm
E-5pm
A-5:15 (sometimes catnap)
E-6:30
A-6:50
S-7pm
E-DF 10:30 wakes for this now
NW-1-4 per night. Give soother and straight back to sleep

[newkidontheblock]

Great news. You sound so much more positive.

No advice about getting out & about, unfortunately. I simply plan stuff around naps. The only nap I am willing to be out during is the CN, which DD does in the sling. I'm a big chicken:p

How do you know if he needs the food though the night though???

If he needed food, he would let you know loud & clear, trust me on this:p

E-2:30/3pm
A-3pm
E-5pm
A-5:15 (sometimes catnap)
E-6:30
A-6:50
S-7pm

Lovely long naps:) One thing though -- I think he would still need a catnap somewhere in between nap 2 & BT. 2.30/3  to 7pm is a looong time. Does the NW happening regardless of CN or do you notice happening on no CN days? As your A times lengthen closer to 2.45, you can working on dropping the CN and moving to a 2 nap routine. For now though, my suggestion is that on no CN days, an earlier bedtime might be necessary:)

[ljearnshaw]

I feel like you're my little guardian angel! As always this is terrific advice and I'll give it a go with CN or earlier bedtime. Like you, I find the best time to get out is after that second nap and actually usually the only way he'll take a CN is in the stroller.

I completely agree on the staying in for naps front though! I gave it a go for the second nap yesterday and it really wasn't worth it! You know what I love about EASY though, is that I pretty much always know what he needs now. Yesterday at 1pm I knew that crying was "Why aren't I in my crib, its nap time!!!' Thank you Tracey!

One last little thing...He's waking up consistently now around 10pm looking for his DF, its become a habitual waking. Do you think we should try bringing it forward to break the pattern or not worry about it? Solids start this week so we may start seeing changes then. And do you have an opinion on the soother? From what I understand soothers are ok if they're not a prop?

Thanks so much Fleur again and yes much more positive now, just felt like I was in a fog that week but goodness me was it ever worth it!

[newkidontheblock]

You know what I love about EASY though, is that I pretty much always know what he needs now. Yesterday at 1pm I knew that crying was "Why aren't I in my crib, its nap time!!!' Thank you Tracey!

Exactly! She is amazing:)

WRT waking for the DF - does he wake when you enter the room or before you go in? You can try changing the timings a bit.We had this happen with DD but luckily she would fall asleep during.

No opinion about soothers, sorry. DD's never had one:) I think as long as you teach him to replug in a while and have PLENTY of spares, it should be fine:)