Author Topic: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?  (Read 593 times)

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Offline Amcivor

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Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« on: May 22, 2015, 09:40:55 am »
Hi everyone, having a hard time again with my lg who will be 9 months in a week. We finally dropped the catnap about 6 weeks ago and had a good routine going with 2 naps of 1.25-1.5 hours. Lately they've been consistently 1.5 hours. However, on and off for 2 weeks now she's been waking in the night and taking up to 2 hours to settle back to sleep. Times have all been random, one night was 11pm till 1am, another 4.40am-6.30am, and last night was 2.15-3.45. Obviously it's exhausting! She usually still has one night feed which was around 4ish before so if it's near that time I've been feeding and putting her back down. If it's early (11-12) I've been offering water and trying to resettle but often resorting to feeding when she's not settling after an hour but by then it hasn't worked anyway. Last night it sounded like she'd settled back to sleep after feed as her breathing was slow and she was still but then after 5-10 mins she started crying again. I cannot PU to settle anymore as she arches her back and pushes me with her hands. Shushing and hand on tummy does nothing. The last couple nights I've even tried the dummy again and she just lays there moaning with it in her mouth. She's not crying hysterically just moaning, moving about and wide awake. She is desperately trying to crawl at the moment and is going backwards. She has just mastered rolling back to front. No sign of any more teeth at the moment. She also seems to be having a hard time settling at nap times and mantra cries loudly for 3-4 minutes which she doesn't normally do. She seems very tired by nap times and bedtime I'm assuming as she's more mobile.

Yesterday's easy was:
6.30 WU
7 milk bf one side
8 weetabix with fruit
9.30-11 nap
11 milk bf one side
12.30 lunch beef lasagne, avocado, fromage frais
2.15-3.45 nap
3.45 milk bf one side
5.15 dinner salmon and broccoli pasta bake
6.30 bath
6.50 milk bf both sides
7.10 bed asleep by 7.15
Woke at 2.15, fed and Pd at 2.30. Started crying at 2.40. Didn't settle till 3.45 when fed on same side again.

Her awake time has been fairly consistent at 3 hours max in morning but can go up to 3.5 hours after a good nap. We stopped df about a month ago as 2 nights running she refused to drink any. I'm going back to work in a week so obviously would like to be getting more sleep. We've been doing bedtime between 7-7.30 for about a month and it's been working well. When I'm at work she'll be at the childminder's from 8-5 and we'll be home by 5.30 so can't really do bedtime any earlier than 7 so I'd like to keep it as that.

I've been reluctant to cut DTS as she seems so tired at nap times and I thought it was developmental and didn't want to throw OT into the mix but now I'm thinking maybe I should cut morning nap down to an hour? Thanks for reading! Advice very welcome!!

Offline Amcivor

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 09:43:32 am »
Also she self settles for naps and bedtime with muslin comforter and lullaby seahorse playing.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 15:02:54 pm »
As it's in the later part of the night, I'm inclined to think maybe the DTS is a factor hun. Developmental factors might be at play too however.

As she's nearing 9mths, I would look at pushing the A times a little and see if it helps. You've got room in your day to lengthen it a little but not by much as ideally it's preferable to have a max 13hr day. Not everyone prefers this though   ;)

So, as you're starting to run out of day time hours, this does mean the very start of the 2-1. Not saying she ready for one nap at all yet, it's just it starts getting tough fitting it all in. I'll post the link for you at the end to have a read through.

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 15:04:30 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline Amcivor

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 15:45:56 pm »
Ok thanks. My goodness, we've only just managed to navigate the 3-2 and that was a total disaster that went on for about a month at least. Just when you think you've got it sussed they love to change it all don't they!

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 16:21:43 pm »
You've nailed it in one hun! Fwiw mine did the exact same thing!

Pop back if you need any help with it all. The 2-1 can be a long process, and a bit tricky at times x



Offline Amcivor

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 08:54:01 am »
Ok so I cut naps to 1.5 hours morning and an hour in the afternoon. She was still waking but settling quicker e.g. Brief wake at 10 ish but settled with quick cuddle then sleeping till 5, having small feed and going back down easily  till 7. Then last 2 nights things have got bad again. She has been waking around midnight and just wide awake for 1-2 hours and then also up for the day just before 6am. She is also having a hard time settling for naps again the past 2 days despite pushing her a times out.

Yesterday:

WU 5.50 fed and put back down, was quiet in cot but did not fall back to sleep
7 up, changed and fed other side
8 breakfast
9 tried for nap as seemed very tired, didn't settle, lots of moaning and rolling around then crying, didn't calm down at all when picked up, after 20 mins I gave her the dummy which we don't usually use and she settled at 9.20 and slept 1.5 hours
11.45 lunch
2 pm milk bf both sides
2.25 fell asleep in car coming back from childminders, I transferred to cot, she fussed for a few seconds then settled and slept till 3.30 I went in to wake her but had just woken up
5 dinner
6.15 bath
6.30 milk bf both sides
Put to bed at 7, again moaned then cried, DH did brief PU and then when PD she settled at 7.15

Moaned briefly at 11.45 but then settled.
NW 12.35 crying, didn't settle when picked up so I fed her and put back in cot, she was quiet for half an hour but could hear her fiddling with muslin and cot bars, then starting moaning, picked up briefly and tucked her back in she then wriggled around for about half an hour before falling asleep just after 2. Then woke for the day at 5.50 (usually 7!)

She was at the childminders for 2 hours yesterday and wasn't very happy, she cried twice for a few minutes and only smiled once. Usually she is very content and smiling/laughing, rarely cries. When I returned she moaned at me for a minute but then by the time we got out to the car she was kicking and laughing. Today she will be there for 4 hours before I'm back to work next week. She's still desperate to crawl, is rolling all over the place and has just learnt to sit from lying down. There's so much going on that I think a lot of it is developmental and I'm unsure how much to change her routine by. Any advice welcome.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 17:07:29 pm »
First off... Congratulations on the transferring to the cot.. I've never, ever been able to do that!

The NW's do sound like they're getting better don't they? Well, until now. Ok, there is a lot of developmental stuff around now, as with a Little SR too. I remember a week or so of NW's with DD when she started learning all that stuff too at 9mo. Do you follow the wonder weeks at all? That mood smarts of wonder week grottiness. Unexplained yucky moods. Or else she's teething dyt?

I'm wondering if she's asking for a slight bump in A times too. All that messing about in the cot before nap time looks a clear indication of needing a bump. She fell asleep at the 3.5hrs mark, which for 9mo is about average. Dyt you could look at keeping that first A at 3.5hrs for a few days and see if that helps any? Earlier WU's I'm this house usually signalled a need to push the first A out a little (or in our case a lot  ;)). We were on 4hrs 15mims at 9mths whereas she was on 3hrs or 3.5hrs ish just 6 weeks beforehand!

I'd keep the last A to BT as is. I'm always reluctant to stretch that one as I'd prefer any OT to happen first thing in the morning so they have a chance to catch up rather than have OT NW's in the early part of the night. Xx

I'm also wondering if she's getting enough milk feeds in the day hun? I notice you've dropped one? Technically that's only 3 feeds a day. Do you do any nF's at all? I think the average is 4 a day, but I'm not a BF expert by any means. Have a look here or I can ask a BF mod their opinion?
Routines for Solids and Bottles/BF's 6-12months
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 17:18:41 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline Amcivor

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 19:21:29 pm »
Hi thanks for the reply. I don't think it's teething as she's not crying much at night and absolutely fine during the day. According to Wonder Weeks we're in a sunny period! You might be right about the first a time as today I PD at 3 hours 20 and she moaned for a couple minutes but was asleep at 3 hours 25. So I'll try 3.5 hours in the morning now. We dropped her 11am feed on the advice of our health visitor as she wasn't massively interested and was having 2 very small milk feeds at 11 and 2.30ish so now she just has one bigger feed at 2.30ish and a yogurt with her lunch. Some days, if we're going out for lunch I do give her a small feed at 11 then lunch at 12/12.30 and then another milk feed when she wakes from her nap but it doesn't seem to make any difference. Overall I think she has about the same amount but I'd be interested in any advice on this. Most nights she does have a small feed (one side) anywhere between 2 and 5.30am which is not ideal at all! Some nights, if she wakes earlier and resettles without a feed then she doesn't have one.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2015, 19:03:48 pm »
It might be worth popping over to the bf board to post something there just to check? As I said, I'm useless about bf! I'm sure it's fine.. I believe it's normal to still have a nf at this age?

How did today go with the slightly longer A? I'm just wondering... Is the childminders a new thing? You said she was there for 2hrs the other day, but that's increasing as you're going back to work soon? This age is a prime time for separation anxiety so I'm just thinking there may be a little of that thrown in for good measure. Wdyt? X



Offline Amcivor

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2015, 19:51:45 pm »
Hi, so she managed 3.5 hours fine this morning, moaned for a few minutes but settled herself to sleep. Weirdly though she only napped 1 hr 10 when usually she does 1.5 hours consistently. I wondered though if it was because she was getting hungry as it was coming up to when we usually start lunch? Anyway, she did another 3.5 hours a time after that and DH woke her after 1 hr 20 as we're keeping naps to 2.5 hours so the day doesn't get too long. She then did another 3.5 to BT and went down happy and babbled for 5 minutes before going to sleep.

So the day was:
WU 6.40
7 bf both sides
8 breakfast
10.10-11.20 sleep
11.45 lunch
2.15 milk 5 oz bottle as I was out
2.50 - 4.10 sleep
5 dinner
6.45 bath
7 bf both sides followed by story/lullabies/cuddle
7.30 In bed
7.40 asleep

So the day has been great, we'll see what the night brings!

Yes childminders is very new. She's only been there 3 times, once for 2 hours and twice for 4 hours. Next week she'll be doing 8-5 Mon-Thurs. She's cried for a minute or 2 when dropped off then been ok but has been very serious whilst there, not smiling which is very unlike her! She has not yet settled herself for a nap there and last time wouldn't drink her milk despite regularly taking a bottle from my DH and mother. When I've picked her up she has moaned at me for a minute then has been happy, smiling and kicking, straight back to herself. So I'm hoping she'll start feeling more settled there soon and things will improve! She doesn't cry when I leave the room or anything but I'd say a bit is SA is creeping in now in relation to being left at the childminders.

I will check on bf board what they say about feeds. Thanks

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2015, 09:06:34 am »
That looks good hun, especially as you were capping the naps anyway. It could be 1hr 10 nap means a little OT (only for some LO's that's the case) but I wouldn't worry too much if it's not affecting the night and I usually don't worry about it if the next nap is a nice length too.

How did the night go?

I'll be back in a mo to post a link about SA just so you can do all you can to limit it as much as possible. It is a huge difference for her though so some disruption is to be expected. I'm sure once she gets used to it, she'll be just fine. The main thing is to always tell her you're leaving and that you'll be back. Never sneak out of the room when she's not looking, even at home. Be as consistent as can be, extra cuddles as needed. Remember it will pass xx

Separation Anxiety
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 09:09:17 am by Kellyjs »



Offline Amcivor

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2015, 09:44:28 am »
Thanks very much. Night was much better. She did wake at 9.30 though, just moaning, I was in the bathroom listening while getting ready for bed but then heard DH go in. He said he only picked up for 30 seconds, laid her back down and she went right back to sleep. She cried out briefly at 2.30 but settled herself and then woke crying at 4.10 so I fed one side and she settled right back to sleep.

This morning she seemed very tired at 3 hours but we sat and looked at some books, I took her in to wind down after 3 hr 15, she was doing massive yawns and whinging so I PD at 3 hr 20, she moaned for 5 mins then was just making noises for another 5 then was quiet so thought she'd settled. Then heard her crying after 5 mins. When DH went in to give her a pat she was sat up in the corner of the cot! That's never happened before but then she's only recently learnt how to sit up from lying down. That was despite being in a grobag and having a sheet tucked down the sides of the cot so she must've kicked it off, rolled onto her tummy and pushed back to sitting as that's how she gets up. Any tips on that? Is it just a case of lying her back down and tucking her back in? What do you do if that goes on for a while and lo gets OT? She can never settled herself when OT she then needs to be held until almost asleep which is what DH had to do. Oh dear! We will prob get a short nap now too as she'll be getting hungry soon.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Are NWs developmental or too much DTS?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2015, 13:42:12 pm »
Argh it does suck when they start doing that... Wait until they start standing up and can't get back down by themselves  ::)

Yep, I'd just be consistent. Lie her back down, use your sleepy phrase such as it's sleep time now and rinse and repeat. She'll soon get over it. It could be perhaps be that she needs an extra tiny bit of A time added on but time will tell.

I'd also try and settle and NW's without picking up too if you can. Perhaps use your voice and a little ssh and see if that works initially. If she gets even more worked up then of course soothe her as you have been doing. It's just that for NW's, being picked up can be a little stimulating.