Severe nw's since being weaned

[Elvisking]

Hi,
LO is nearly 8 months. He slept through the night from 10 weeks- with the odd disruption with the dummy & teething, but naps were always a nightmare. We started to wean him at 5 1/2 months and from 6 months his nightime sleep is horrendous. He is awake between 4-11 times every night.  Sometimes because he's lost his dummy, sometime just lying awake & sometimes playing/banging cot. He never cries, but is very noisy & wakes my eldest daughter up. Some would say leave him- but he is exhausted, as am I. He is a brilliant eater, but milk intake is on the low side- (health visitor has put him on vit drops for this)
   
 Day pretty much goes like this (if it goes to plan!!)

A 7:00
E 7:15 bottle then porridge
A
S 9:00 45-90 min
E 11:00 bottle followed by lunch
A
S 1/1:30 90-120 mins
E 3:00 bottle
A
S 4/4:30 catnap for 10 mins if last nap was good or 30 min if it was poor
E 5:00 dinner & dessert
A wind down
 Bottle then at 6pm
S 7:00
 
   First night waking is always around 10/10:30 then after 12 it all goes pear shaped. Sometimes we can go in & pop dummy in & he's fine. Other times it's 20/30 mins of shh/pat, or just shh.
  I know we're doing something wrong- but we're that tired we don't see it.
 
A friend is a sleep consultant & says that his routine is great- but morning nap needs to be a bit later, so we are doing that in 5 min stretches daily. She always says she's sure it's not a sleep problem- as he was a good sleeper and usual-95% of the time naps well.

Please please pleeeeease have a look, and please offer your thoughts. It's probably blatantly obvious to you guys, but we really need help.

Thanks xxx

[becj86]

Well, I think your friend the sleep consultant may well be somewhat right... that first A time should be more like 3-3:15 at least by 8 months so it definitely needs to push out. That CN should be gone by now too, most babies drop to 2 solid naps between 6 and 7 months.

TBH, pushing by 5mins at a time could end you up in a heap as it may be too slow and if you're not already seeing an OT/UT loop, you are likely to soon. IIWM, I would just go cold turkey to a routine like that below, stick to it for a week and then tweak from there:
7 - Wake
10 - Nap
11:30 - Wake (let him wake on his own - you may have to resettle an OT waking the first few days)
2:30 - Nap
4 - Wake
7 - BT

Of course, you know your baby best, so go with the option that feels right for you. I suspect after a week of this routine, you'd be pushing your A times another 15 min if not 30.

The other thing I'd point out is that you said in your post his sleep has been terrible since you weaned. I'm guessing you mean added solids to his diet and left all else the same. The milk intake could well be low because he's eating too much in the way of solids - solids is for tasting and fun til LO is 1yo, really. Milk has more calories per oz than any solids you'd offer a baby and its really important to his night sleep that he's getting enough calories in the day so it could well be worth cutting dinner solids out completely and just having small amounts of breakfast and lunch. That way the solids should have made their way through his gut by BT and not be contributing to the wakings via discomfort.

[Elvisking]

Brill becj thank you. That all makes sense. In fact SO much sense!!!! Thank you.

 The food issue- LO has had sever silent reflux and it took us 4 months of different meds & milk to get him sorted- the weaning started & we saw a major change in his reflux, so we were advised to go ahead at his rate- which is a really hungry appetite. However, just this evening I cut out his dessert so that I could get more milk in to him.

 I am going to try this tomorrow. How long do you recommend we try this for to judge if it's working? ( I suppose if his night sleep gets better that's proof??!!)

Thank you SO much. I will be in touch!!!

[becj86]

Glad I could help - sometimes all you need is someone who's not stuck in it...

Ok, reflux can be a big issue and the pain can have him waking at night... couple other questions:
Have his meds been adjusted in line with weight gain?
Is it possible there's a food sensitivity involved?

I reckon you'd have to give the new routine about a week and then tweak - expect OT wakings from nap at around 30min for the first 2-3 days - not because its wrong for him, just its a big jump from what he's used to but he should start sleeping naps better within 3 days and the night should follow within the week.

[Elvisking]

Hi, well He slept all night last night!!!! Would you believe it?!
 Anyway, reflux meds have just been increased & we are waiting for our allergy testing appointment. This is something that the sleep consultant said. I wanted to wait to see what anyone suggested on here first- and interestingly enough- you mentioned it. Consultant said- that she is adamant it's not a sleep issue, and goes more along the allergy/intolerance route. We have an appointment in 3 weeks- and are trying to get one sooner. It will be interesting to see. In the meantime, we go ahead as you suggested.
  He was up at 5:34 am and he went down for nap at 8.not quite 3 hours- but he was screaming in exhaustion. So, tomorrow we'll try for 3 hours.
  I really cannot thank you enough- everything you said just makes sense- and as we both said sometimes- it just takes an outsider to look in!! Will keep in touch. Thanks xx

[Elvisking]

Oh, meant to add. We currently hold LO & cuddle until he's nearly asleep & then put him in to his cot. We ultimately want to get him sleeping independently. We've looked in here at the Pantley technique & have a few from our friend. Do you think we wait until nighttime sleep is sorted before we do this? Or tackle both?

[becj86]

I found it infinitely easier to get DS to sleep independently when I knew he was on a really solid routine that worked well for him. I think also you're pretty close to 9 months and that's typically when the first round of separation anxiety hits so best to wait for the sleep training IMO. You could try putting him down slightly less drowsy if you want to work on it, worth a try but I wouldn't do anything other than gradual withdrawal at this point. Any props at play? I presume he can plug his own dummy?

Pushing those A times is hard and its a big jump, I know, I've done it with my DS too but it will mean you're not chasing your tail with A times for the next 3 months.

Great that he had a good long sleep last night May it continue!

[Elvisking]

That's what we thought really too. He did wake early from nap this morning- but had a good 3 hour A time & just did a 95 min nap. Will have to give him a catnap today due to the early waking right?
   Dummy- getting there, still like to play with it a bit- but yeah, can plug himself most of the time.

[becj86]

Yeah, I would just to keep BT reasonable.

[Elvisking]

He got 25 mins! His sister woke him. Will get onto this again in a day or two & see how we're getting on! Thank you V V much!!! 🙏xx

[Elvisking]

Ok, so strangely enough, gone all night again!! Up at 5!!! Haven't gone into him yet- hoping he'll go back over!!! This is a new one for us again!!! Even if he managed til 6 😢

[becj86]

This EW is really something you'd see with that first nap being too early - well worth pushing it out xx

[Elvisking]

Aaaaargh Bec!! He woke at 4am! Went back at 5:07 ish & is awake again at 5:49 😢😢😢😢
Do we it him down 3 hours from now or from the 4am? He really didn't get much kip between 4-5. This is horrific. We are getting earlier every night. Definitely doing 3 hours this morning.

[becj86]

I know its hard, but you're seeing the result of the way too short first A time right now, so you go from when he got up for the day and do 3hr. He will be screamy and it will not be pleasant but this is short term pain for long term gain. Consider how long this will take increasing by 5min every 2-3 days - by the time you've done the 36 days required to get you to 3hr, he'll need 3.5hr and you'll still be in this loop. Good luck, try to keep it low key for him but keep him awake xx

[Elvisking]

Great. Thanks. I understand the reasoning, & yeah- trying to keep him awake was horiffic!!!! Onwards & upwards eh? Thanks again! Xx