Severe nw's since being weaned

[becj86]

Yeah, time doesn't blunt those memories... or it hasn't yet Best of luck, you really should be seeing some improvements in a couple of days. xx

[Elvisking]

Hi, just thought I'd touch base! We're on our second day of exactly 3 hour awake time in the am! He's doing great. He is exhausted & it is reay hard to keep him awake- but he's doing it. Still up early- but closer to 6 now which is good. I'm still doing a 10/20 catnap around 4:30 as he's up so early- but as he wakes later I'll get rid of it. He is shattered by 4!!! Just one thing- if he's up at 5:45 he does 2x120min naps & a 10/20 min cat nap & bed asleep at 7pm, do think he needs earlier BT? Sooo greatful for your advice. Thank you!! Xx

[becj86]

So you're saying your day looks a bit like this now:
5:45 E
8:45 S
10:45 E
1:45 S
3:45 E
? CN
7 BT

If you're still doing the CN, BT of 7 is fine, maybe a touch later really would be ok too.
TBH, I'd just do BT ~6:30/6:45 without the CN. You may find you're able to resettle and get a long night out of him to shift WU that bit later An 11hr night and 13hr day is ok at this age if you're getting 2hr naps.

[Elvisking]

Hi Bec, just thought I'd give you a run down! Also got a few questions!!
     Well, he's sleeping through!! We sometimes have 1/2 wake ups but that's it. He's managing the 3 hours no problem, but is still waking 45-60 mins into the naps!! He seems to get night sleep right & then naps go wrong or vice versa!!!  I can get him to go back over if I am able to get up there quick enough- and he'll do a further 45- but it is a pain with having the eldest LO.
  Just a few queries...
   If he does only  45 min in am & 60 in pm is early BT better or a catnap & stick to 7pm bed?
Do I do BT by the time he wakes up or by how much sleep he's had during the day?
Also, if he wants to do 2 hours in first nap is that ok? Or do I cap each nap to 90 mins?

Can't thank you enough for your advice!!! Hope you are wellXx

[becj86]

Hi, Glad things are better with nights. Can you confirm - he's about 8 months now? I was saying you may need to increase A time a tad more to get the sweet spot after the jump to 3hr, with a 60min waking, you're probably within 10-20min of the right A time, so I'd increase by 15min and see how you go

TBH, at this age, he should be able to do 2hr45 A off a 1hr nap and 2:15-2:30 A off a 45min nap so I'd probably try to do a tiny CN of no more than 20min and then pop into bed at 7 or just carry on and do BT early though with EBT you run the risk of earlier WU too. Either could suit, just depends on your family situation and LO's temperament. Once on two naps, DS never took a late PM CN again

I think once you increase those A times a touch more and get those good naps again (the 60min naps show he is UT but can transition between sleep cycles), you'll be fine for a little while so long as you just increase by ~5 min every week or two by observing his cues.

Don't worry about capping until 2hr - naps of 2hr are fine at this point.

[Elvisking]

Right, tbh- I've still been giving him 3hpir activity time off a 45min nap!!! I've just tried to stick to it- just to get him used to it. In the morning I'll post the last few days so that you can see how we're doing & what needs tweaking. We're currently up here- not sure what's wrong, but it's been 20 mins of playing & the crying is about to start. 😢

[becj86]

Cheers I was erring on the conservative side with those A times after short naps so I wouldn't worry too much, he will definitely need a push though if he's doing 3hr off a short nap and doing another UT nap.

[Elvisking]

Hi Bec, we've had a crazy few days. Sleep is awful and LO is exhausted and we're ready for the hills!!! We're really struggling to keep him up for 3 hours- but are really trying to!!! He is going down easily enough, but waking a lot before 12 and then the rest is not great either!!! Please check the food also- the last few nights we've had to dream feed. & it has helped. Here's the last few days easy....

   6:20 awake
E 6:40 5 oz milk, porridge & banana
S 9:30
   11:10 awake
E 12:10 5 oz milk lunch & dessert
S 1:45 he was exhausted
   2:53 awake
E 4:10  3oz milk
   4:50 dinner & dessert
   6:30 3oz milk
S 6:52 asleep
He then woke up twice before 8:30, 12:07, 1:51, 3:34 for 25 mins, we gave him a bottle- he drained 6oz asleep again at 4:20, woke at 5:32 and slept until 8:10

  8:10 awake
E 5oz milk
   Porridge, pancake & fruit
S  10:58
    12:02 awake
E 12:27 5oz milk lunch & dessert
S  2:58
    4:40 awake
E  4:58 dinner & dessert
     6:35 4oz milk
S  7:15
1 wake up before 9, 11:20 gave feed drained 6oz, awake at 5, 5:53, and up at 7:20

Today
Awake 7:20
E  7:40 5oz & porridge
S 10:27
   11:42 awake
E 12:00 6oz milk lunch & dessert
S 2:38 asleep
   Woke at 3
   4:20 I woke him up
E 4:50 5oz milk & dinner
   6:45 6oz drained
S. 7:12
 I've been up to him twice so far!!!

Sorry that's so long & so much for you to read!!
 He has never had a good relationship with milk and the maximum he's ever taken is 6oz.  So please don't be alarmed at the small quantities!! He is on vitamins & eats solids well. I feel we are all over the place- and it's probably staring me in the face- but I'm just not sure what to do. Should I allow him to sleep longer at nap time instead of weakening him??  Hooke you see something!!! Again, apologies for the looooooong email!!!!

[becj86]

Ok, so at 2:45 A time, he's still doing ~1hr nap - are you waking him here? I think even though he looks exhausted, he's not actually because you're still getting short UT naps. I think this is shortening his day and leaving him OT at BT hence the wakings in pre-midnight.

So I'd say there are a few things you can do in combination:
- Ensure he's up 3hr at least, he's still doing a shortish nap on that first A of 3hr. (eg. Today - 3:07 first A, 1:15 nap)
- Don't wake him til 2hr into a nap

If you really can't keep him up, try to keep A to BT to 2:15 -2:30 so he's not so OT going to bed - see you had less wakings on the middle day which had a shorter A to bed.

[Elvisking]

Hi Bec, thanks.
I'm currently up for the 6th time. He's been awake for 35+ mins here & is still banging away at the cot. It is seriously getting us down now & the length of time it's taking us to get him back over every wake up is absolutely ridiculous. Do you think we need to try anything else to stop this or stick to trying to get him through the night first? We have to hold/cuddle him for at least 6/7mins & then half the time we put him back in asleep he wakes upon putting him back in.

  Sooo, up for at least 3 hours between wu & naps & keep A time before bed shorter- ie 2hr 15/30 despite morning wu time??

[becj86]

I think keep A to BT shorter only if he has shorter A times or shorter naps during the day. Its when he's not getting those 2 restorative naps in the day that he's struggling at night. Its hard and that interrupted evening is soul-destroying, I know. The only thing that will fix that is to stop him being OT by the end of the day by not letting him nap when UT.

[Elvisking]

Hi Bec, thanks for the reply. Yesterday his routine was different in the afternoon as he went to the childminder. He only slept for 15 mins in the car their- and 20 mins in the way home in the car. He was massively OT going to bed. He had two wake ups before 12- but they were a quick in- in & out reassurance & that was it. He's woken at 3:30, thrashing around the place like mad, all over the cot again really unsettled. I went in & lifted him & usually we put him on our knee & just hold him, sometime pat his back he will go over immediately. This has not worked in 3 days- he is SO awake, has bad wind both ends & is hungry. We have just fed him & he is calm. He is clearly hungry. I think it's definitely more than just UT.  What do you think? I really don't want to get into the habit of feeding him again in the night- but if it works & we all get sleep then.....? It's a bad habit😪 I can't fit any more bottles in the day could it be a DF?

[becj86]

Yeah, you could do a DF. How old is he again? I think he's ~8 months, no? If so, its still very normal to have a night feed in there.

Have you introduced a new food recently? Bad wind and wanting milk... sounds like maybe an intolerance/reaction to food?

Its certainly not a bad habit to feed a hungry baby and if that gives him and you another 3hr of quality sleep, its worth it!

[Elvisking]

Oh thank you!!! I thought you were going to say no!!! 😂😂 he has not been introduced to new foods- but could be needing more reflux meds as he's grown? We'll keep in touch! Are you in Oz? I owe you big time!! 👍👍x

[becj86]

Yeah, every 500g-1kg  or so, they need to up the dosage, really, so that should be every few weeks and tapering off towards 1yo...

Keep me posted, I'd love to see it all work out, I'm sure it will! Yeah, I'm in Brisbane at the moment. 

I'm just paying it forward for all the help I got when DS was a baby. I love helping people get babies sleeping better, makes life so much more manageable.