Transitioning a 5 month old to a 4 hr schedule??!!

[Libsmommy]

Looking for help transitioning a 5 month old to a 4 hr schedule. We are currently on a 3 hr. I see information on changing at 4 months but not a child who is a little older. But not quite 6 mo.
I would appreciate any help.

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums
The transition would be the same for a 5 month old, basically increasing A (activity) time to a suitable time for age (and for LOs preference, the A times are only guidance) to keep naps a good length and to gradually increase the time between E. The time between E will usually naturally extend as LO sleeps through the 3hrly E and is fed on waking.
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
Check out the guidance A times for age, but also go by what your LO has been doing up to now too and take into account if naps have shortened due to too short an A time.
Once you work out where you are headed you can move in increments (see the first link) up to a more age appropriate routine.
hope this helps.

If you would like specific help please post your current EAS times.  It would help to keep a daily record of the EAS times whilst you work through the transition so if you do not have records just now you can begin the process with a couple of days observation and recording, this helps to take into account LOs individual needs.

[Libsmommy]

Thank you for responding. I feel like we are all over the place because she has started waking early in the morning. She doesn't cry. Just lays in her crib and plays. I don't get her up until 645 or 7. Also, some days she naps well 11/2-2 hrs. Other days 45 mins. She usually doesn't wake crying. She rolls around and then starts fussing when it's time to get up.
A- not really sure?
E-7 breastfeeding
A-715-730
    Breakfast at 730. She just started cereal 4 days ago. Gradually introducing. Only 1 feed per day
A-we try to go until 810-815. On the days I'm sure she was up before 6, it's hard to push. I may put her down around 8
S-wind down starts at 810-815. I turn down the lights, change her diaper, put her sleep sack on and read one story. Then I snuggle with her a few mins and lay her in the crib awake. She is usually asleep in 10-15 mins. On avg this is usually our longest nap. Today she woke after 30 mins. Never cried. She put herself back to sleep after 15 mins.
E-10
A-1015 or 1020
S-I do the same wind down and place her in the crib awake @ 1115 or 1120.  This may be a 45 min nap.
E-1
A-115 or 120
S- again same wind down. If she has only slept 45 mins, she is zoned out by 145 or 2. I find it very hard to keep her awake. But no matter what time I put her down, even with extended WT, I get a 45 min nap!  So she is usually awake between 245 and 315.
E-4
A- after feeding.
S- she will not take another catnap. If I put her in the crib again she plays and then cries. Not really crying it's more like screaming!
I start bedtime routine around 530. She gets bath, massage, I nurse and then down to bed awake. Usually between 6 and 630 depending on how long she nurses.
DF- 10 or 1030
Then we start back with an EWU or for the last 2 nights she has been waking around 2. Last night she was just fussing. Not crying. I did not go in until she started crying. I checked her diaper. Put her back in the crib. She started crying. So I did PU/PD 14 times. Then she fussed just a few mins and went back to sleep.

[creations]

OK so after having a look at your EASY I suggest keeping the first A time 2hrs from when she ought to be waking as putting down for a nap too early can encourage baby to wake earlier in the morning.  This means her 'real' first A time is much longer.
Gradually increase the time between E.  If she fusses a lot for her feed and you can't extend 30 mins in one go then try 3hr 15 for 3 days followed by 3hr 30 for 3 days and so on. You will be working towards a 4hr E.

The A time for this age would be around 2hr 30 to 3hrs.  I think your EASY show a 1hr 15 mins A time after the first nap, this is just too short for her which is why you are getting the short nap, it's a sign she is UT.
I would go straight at least 2hrs on each A time, longer if you can keep her up (do try).
We often suggest increasing A time in 15 mins increments but I think you could do a bigger jump simply because some of the A times are so short.

Just as a reminder A time is anything from the moment she wakes right up to the moment she falls to sleep (including E time and WD), S time is the time she actually falls to sleep until she is awake.  This will help us review your EAS times a little more easily in future.
For now then your routine may look like:
WU ?
Get up 7.00
E 7.00
A 2hr (in reality it is longer than this due to earlier morning wake up)
S 9.00 - 10.30
E 10.30
A 2hr 30
S 1.00 - 2.30
E 2.30
and so on...

If she is sleeping she is unlikely to notice her E times extended.  If you get a short nap see if you can extend the E some anyway so it's getting towards the 3hr 30 E.

You don’t need to linger with this routine though, you can move on quite quickly towards the more suitable 4hr E and longer A times.
Have a look through those links I gave you - they are really helpful, especially the A times for age, you can keep referring back to that as she grows

[Libsmommy]

Thank you again!
I read each of the posts that you sent. I started working on it today.
WU-630
E-7
A-720-830
S-830-11( she was so fussy. I couldn't get her to go any longer. I was scared she would be OT)
WU-1050
E-11
A-1115-1235
S-1235

And here we are. She was starting to get fussy again for this nap as well. But she made it 2hrs this morning and 1 hr 45!!  I am happy with the progress. And she seemed fine with feeding every 4. I will probably wake her at 230 but feed her at 3. Scared 2 21/2 hr naps may be too much? 

[creations]

Looks like you're headed in the right direction

[Libsmommy]

Unfortunately I only got a 30 min nap and a super cranky baby!  We will keep working

[creations]

Try to extend those A times. I know you are scared of OT but UT is just as bad (worse IMO).
If it's any help Tracy suggested doing a fan dance to keep LOs up longer...

[Libsmommy]

Tried again this morning to extend wake time. Another 30 min nap. I have to say I think that is more frustrating than 45 min. Yesterday afternoon was terrible. She was so tired from her second 30 min nap that she cried going down for her last nap.  She rarely ever does that. I ended up having to hold her or she wouldn't have gotten a nap at all. Then she was up from 345-530 in the night. How long does it take them to catch up and not be OT? I feel like I have more issues now than before.

[creations]

I know it feels ever so hard right now. Keep in sight the progress you've made though. Only yesterday there was a 2.5hr nap and you were happy with the progress.
Having a day with a super cranky baby is tiring and can cause you to lose sight of where you were yesterday...and where you can be tomorrow.  you'll get there.

So - lets look back at yesterday,

S-830-11( she was so fussy. I couldn't get her to go any longer. I was scared she would be OT)
WU-1050
E-11
A-1115-1235
S-1235

She had a long 2.5hr nap which was followed with a 1hr 35 A time, way too short, the result was a 30 min nap.
When baby sleeps only 30 mins she will get cranky.  UT naps can lead to OT due to the loss of sleep.
Keep in mind A time for this age is 2.5 to 3hr. You really do need to gIve 2hrs for every A time if not more, then when ready increase to 2hr 15, then increase to 2hr 30 or the short naps will continue.  Looking forwards over the coming weeks as she approaches 6 months she will need a 2hr 30 or even 3hr A time, if you delay on the A time increases in increments you will have continued sleep difficulties.

Yes during routine changes LO can get OT but the way to overcome this is to go steadily towards a more suitable routine.
I suggest 2hrs for every A time *minimum*
You can also do a W2S to help her transition at 30 mins.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Please look at W2S for naps, option 1. Rather than going in at 30 mins I recommend going in at 20 mins and be ready with you hand very near or on her to begin W2S as she goes through the 30 min WU. Shush/pat or whatever your adapted version is, in the cot, to help her transition into the next cycle. As it says in the link, if she fully wakes and cries properly use your usual method, eg pick up for shush/pat.

This is one of those times when EASY seems hard, but you will get through this and a bit of OT now will turn into a great, fully rested, predictable routine. It will.
((hugs)) too I know you're exhausted and frustrated. You can do this x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just popping in to support you through increasing A times.  I've always found it can take a good few days or a week to adjust to a new routine and things can go a bit haywire in the meantime.  Consistency will really help her adjust.

I think Creations has given you some good advice - I would also stick with 2hrs A regardless, let it bed in for a good few days, and then reassess. Good luck

[Libsmommy]

Thank you all!

[creations]

How are things going now?

[Libsmommy]

Quite honestly things are worse. I am lucky to get one good nap. Usually first nap. Since trying to increase A time, second nap is now 30 mins. She doesn't start crying after waking until almost time to wake up. Then by the time I feed her she is so OT, I may not even get a third nap. She's either so tired going down that she cries the entire nap time or she is wound up and won't fall asleep. I finally held her again today. Hoping she would rest because my husband rarely sees her during the week because I have to get her down for bed so early because she hasn't napped. She slept 20 mins and has fussed all afternoon.
Today she took a great first nap. It was 2 hrs. but she has only slept 50 mins for the rest of the day. I have tried less A time. I have tried more. Hasn't helped. Thankfully her nights have been great. I am dreading our horrible days starting to effect them. I am very discouraged. I don't know what else to do. I dread naps. I dread the 30 min mark knowing she's going to wake up. My husband and I argue because I am so tired and frustrated. I hardly ever get to play with my 5 year old. I'm just praying things get better soon.

[creations]

Sorry to hear you are having a rough time of it just now.

Is she 6 months yet?

Could you post your EASY from yesterday where she had a 2hr nap and then only 50 mins the rest of the day please?
What I suspect is that she is UT for the second nap.  You had one or two 30 min naps before you began to change the A times, this can be a sign of UT, your A times were really quite low at the beginning of the thread and I wouldn't be surprised if baby was crying at put down because she didn't want to go to sleep. I experienced similar with mine, it can be very confusing as the fussing or screaming can make us think OT when actually they are UT. The problem with an UT nap is that they sleep such a short time, can't be resettled because they are not tired enough, but then become very tired due to lack of sleep.

This difficult phase has been at an age when very many LOs go off track with their nap routine, and around 6 months is the time things start to come together again, so perhaps that can give you hope.  You will get through this.