Desperate to end midnight-2am playtime

[Vee119]

I have somehow managed to completely mess up the overnight sleep training and I now have a DD who is up every night for 2hrs. Sometimes she seems very wide awake and is resistant to all attempts to help her sleep until at least an hour has passed. It's almost as if she thinks she has just woken from a nap and needs some A time.  Initially I thought she was waking after the dream feed because of gas pain, but then I've noticed that she is now waking just before the DF time and then an hour after that...habitual waking? Unfortunately I have reinforced the behaviour because in an effort to keep her quiet so as not to wake DD1 I fed her, now she is up every night. What I don't understand, and don't know how to fix is the two hour block that she is up. I'm beginning to wonder if her good naps are because she is missing a chunk of time at night??   I know I've created the monster by feeding her at every waking, but I feel like if I don't get the A times right it will be hard to fix the Habitual waking. DD is ebf

How do I help us both get good quality sleep at night?  Ideally I would love a 7:30 BT....and for her not to scream so loud and wake DD1  . Our last 3 days have looked like this:

Up at 7.  During the day I woke her up from every nap
E 7:15
S 8:30 - 10:10
E 10:10
S 11:05 - 1:05
E 1:10
S 2:15 - 4
E 4:10
S 5:20 - 6
E 6
Bath
BT 7 snuck in a feed at 8 while she was sleeping
NW 9:40, 11:40 - 1:40 (she seemed very wide awake and wanted to be held upright for most of the time), 5:20

Wake 7:05
E 7:15
S 8:25 - 10:05
E 10:10
S 11:10 - 1
E 1:15
S 2:10 - 2:45 grandma wanted to put her down and that didn't work too well. She woke on her own
E 3, 3:30 in anticipation of her being asleep at 4
S 4:20 - 4:50 woke on her own
E 5
S 5:30 - 7
Bath
E 7:30
BT 8:10
NW 10:10 ( just before DF), 11:40 - 2 cried for most of the time

Wake up 7:05 I decided to just watch her cues and let her sleep then vs. based on the time which has been our method so far
E 7:10
S 8:20-10
E 10:10
S 11:05-1
E 1:05
S 1:50-3:10
E 3:50
E 4:40
S 4:50-6
E 6:05 bath
E 6:50, 7
BT 7:15
NW 8, 10:15, 11:50-1:45 (tried w2s at 11:15 but obviously not well enough) she was fussy for the first hr..and I kept trying to feed eventually I just left her to chat/mantra cry in the crib and she slept an hour later

Help please....

[Martini~]

Hi Hon, don't worry we will try to fix it somehow. Below 3mo it's really not a big deal and even the most dreadful habit can be broken quite quickly.
What I would advise is pushing A during the day. Especially in the morning they are quite short but she does a good nap after so probably it's catching up after a shorter night. Around 3mo A times are rather closer to 1:30, when at 4mo they go towards 2:00h. Her afternoon A are nice a even quite long, but that may result in a long afternoon nap and that can mess up with her early part of a night.

With 1:30 A, and 3h EASY you would have to cap all her naps at 1:30 which I have done at that age frankly speaking. Last nap of the day (4th one) should be a catnap of 45min if you want to keep 7/7:30 BT. After 3mo I very slowly started to introduce 3:15/3:30 EASy and was on 4h routine shortly before 4mo.

[Vee119]

Thank you Martii.  I'm guessing that w2s to disrupt the 10 and 11:30 waking will just delay the inevitable since the main issue is UT? . I'll buckle in for a few more nights of midnight play and work on the A time.  I guess I'm so afraid of OT naps since I never know what to do after them, that I am putting her down too soon and she is falling asleep more quickly than I expect. So far my catnaps have really been OT naps which is probably not a great start to the night either.  Tomorrow is a new day!

[Vee119]

An update.

Last night was slightly better. I capped her last nap of the day at 90mins and pushed for an Longer A time before bed.  DD woke up after 3 hours for her feed, then was awake but trying to sleep for the next 2.5hrs (DD1 woke her). I don't remember picking her up or feeding her at during that time, and she did not get up for a feed at all - I fed her at 5:30.

Today my goal was on extending A time starting with the second nap since the first is usually finishing off night sleep and I didn't want to start the day badly.  However, although I added only 5 mins extra to A, she had a 45min nap and woke up angry and I couldn't resettle.  After such a short nap, I know I need to reduce A time so we did 1h and now she seems to be napping well (crossing my fingers that it's not another 45mins). After an OT nap, do I again still cap the next nap at 90mins, or should I let her sleep a bit longer? For the next nap, do we try again with extended A or do we seen to keep it short again?  OT naps really throw me off. I'm always at a loss!

Thanks again for your help!

[trimbler]

You'll have to see how it goes - if she does a nice long one then by all means try again with slightly longer A, sounds like she might be quite sensitive to OT so go easily... But of course if she doesn't, and doesn't resettle, you may need to try EASAS or just bring the next feed forward if hungry. Tbh at this age, having done much more APOP second time around, I'd say APOP in the sling or something like that after an OT short nap, to help her catch up - my DS got lots of park trips that way Oh and personally I'd probably let her sleep a little longer after an OT short nap to stretch the day out... but I'd trust Martii's judgement over mine on that - well probably on most things, actually

[Vee119]

Maybe its too early to celebrate, but given that everything may go crazy at her 3 month growth spurt, I have decided to celebrate every successful day:)

Last night was the second night in a row without the 2 hr playtime:) It seems like DD needs a short A time in the morning, but can handle a slightly longer time in the afternoon although she is currently still below the 1h30min average for her age.  BT was 7:15 yesterday and she was up at 8 - I fed her and called it a cluster feed:)  I heard her sucking her fingers loudly at 11:40pm and then at 4am. I fed her both times although I noticed from reading another post that I may be creating another bad habit by feeding her before she actually wakes and cries (I was trying to get her before the loud crying).  Tonight I will not feed unless she actually wakes for it! 

Thank you again for your help!  Hopefully this fun ride continues for a while!

[trimbler]

Celebrating your good night with you I also ended up doing that cluster feed 45min after BT with DS until he stopped waking for it just after the 3mo GS of his own accord. I hear you on not wanting her to cry and wake DD1... Personally at this age I'd just assume hunger if sucking fingers noisily at night, at least until after that 3mo GS, but we'll all have different opinions on that and you know her best

[Martini~]

Thank you Trimbler for popping up when I couldn't:)!

Great news about no long night wakings!

Re naps, I agree that I would let her sleep longer if one nap was OT. What I mean with capping at 1.5h was that at this age you still want to go for 3h feeding pattern so if you feed is first, than A is 1:30, S is also 1:30. But if E was in the middle of A and that will probably happen if previous nap was OT and short, definitely let sleeping up to 2h. Hope that helps! Trimbler thanks for realizing it wasn't clear!