10.5 mo sleep getting haywire - teething or outgrown routine?

[Ciuci]

I've received valuable help in the past and I thank you for this! Things have gone great, with minor exceptions but DD (10.5 mo) was sleeping and developing wonderfully until a week ago. Our routine was:

WU & BF 6.30 (give/take 15 min)
E breakfast solids 9.00
S 10.00 - 1h
E lunch solids 12/12.30
S 2.30 pm - 1h
E BF 3.30 pm upon waking up
E dinner solids 6.00 pm
S 7.30 (BT routine start at 6.30 pm, including BF 6.45 pm - she falls asleep at the breast)
NF between 3.30-4.30 am

There were of course exceptions, but this was generally the day routine including during a holiday abroad to see the extended family.

Back from the holiday and everything continued fine until BAM! A week after we got back she started sleeping very poorly: only 25-30 min CN during the day, EW at 5.30 and not going down even after BF in the dark and quiet, 2 wakings at night (11 pm, 3am), waking multiple times in the evening after  going to sleep...

So now our day looks like this:
WU & BF 5.30/6.30 - sometimes she goes to sleep eventually after waking up super early and sleeps until 7.30
E solids 9.00
S 10.00 - 25-30 min
E lunch solids 12/12.30
S 2.00/2.30 pm - 25-30 min
E BF 3.30 pm
E dinner solids 6.00 pm
BF as part of BT routine 6.45 pm
S 7.00 pm

So I've tried to keep the times for everything else even though she sleeps much shorter. The problem is, she can go even 4h A time but still catnaps!

Before she goes for nap I have 10min quiet play with her to wind down (reading book), then ritual which has stayed the same. She yawns and rubs eyes the whole time through, but the moment I put her in bed she comes to life, singing, babbling, standing up. I often go again 2-3 times to lay her down again, eventually she falls asleep but only for a short nap. It's like resisting/fighting sleep. When she wakes from catnap she cries and it's obvious she hasn't slept enough.

No major developments happening right now, but I think I can see the tip of her 1st tooth pushing through. Is this what's causing the bad sleeping? She doesn't seem to have any local discomfort - no rubbing gums, no excessive saliva.

How can I improve her naps and overall sleep? She's dropped from an average of 12.5-13h of sleep / 24h, to 11.5 Am I stuck with a bad sleeper until the teeth are out, or do you see something in the routine which should change?

I should mention: in 2 months she will start daycare and their sroutine looks like this:
E breakfast 9.00
S (optional) 10.00
E lunch 12.00 or even 11.45
S 1.00 pm - 2-3 hrs
E snack 4.00 pm
pick up at 5.00 pm latest, evening is ours

They are very strict on these timings and I'm thinking I shouls start bringing her closer to this routine. But how in the world will I manage such a long nap in the afternoon with such a short A time between the naps?? When currently she is having A of 3.30-3.45 and these days even 4.00 hrs and STILL sleepig only 30 min.

Looking for your opinion, maybe I'm missing something... Thank you in advance!

[Martini~]

Hi Hon. Yes  - teeth may mess with sleeping. Do you medicate anyhow?

She probably started to be OT with this amount of sleep and that's why those short naps, EWU and NW after BT.
I would consider something to let her catch up. Can you APOP one of the naps? Or put her down much earlier ie for a second nap of the day? I would go for as early as you think LO can manage. If still two short naps - have you consider very EBT? Like 5pm even? Even if she wakes at 5/5:30am next morning she would be more rested.

[Ciuci]

Hi, thanks for the quick reply! Tried APOP by going in immediately when she wakes up and putting her at he breast. Worked 1 time in a week, she fell back asleep and slept another 40min. The other times, she dozes off a little but wakes up when I put her back in the crib, or simply doesn't fall asleep at all anymore. Car or buggy don't work, she doesn't sleep in them.

Also tried putting her earlier - she's simply not tired, ends up playing 30+ min in bed alone and eventually falls asleep to sleep only 25-30 min.

Tried BT @6:30 (in bed, meaning 6.00 we start BT ritual), same thing: didn't fall asleep at the breast, started biting for fun, giggling. Put her in bed, started crying, back at the breast etc etc... ended up falling asleep at 7.30

My priority is that she sleeps because I also think she is by now severely OT but I haven't quite nailed it... In fact, far from it, no matter what I try

[Ciuci]

I don't medicate for teething because, as I said, she doesn't seem to be in discomfort.

Now I put her in bed again after 3:30 of being awake (1st nap was 25 min), she was super energetic as we started the wind down, then started rubbing eyes and yawning, but now in bed she's playing, getting up and down, crawling around...

[Martini~]

In general I would say you should consider two things:
- being hyperactive because of being OT and that's because she started to wake earlier in the morning(and that's might be because teething); do you remember what came first - EMU or short naps?
- being ready for one nap and longer A - and her happy behaviour suggests that

I would try to address both. So:
1. when she still wakes at night, try to medicate - and check if this help with EMU. We also haven't seen any discomfort during day here, but my DS is having night sleep troubles ALWAYS when teething.
2. push first nap to be a later one; she is probably OT a bit right now, but is she still doesn't want to sleep longer than 25-30min I would try to push her slightly later to make her really tired to crash and get some sleep.

WDYT?

[Ciuci]

Honestly I'm at a loss. Yesterday she slept 1x 25 min + 1x 23+7+40 min (both times settled only by BF). And then at night she slept for 10hrs straight, 7.20-5.20, then BF and slept another hour to her normal WU of 6.30.

2->1 I would definitely rule out. None of the naps is longer, never was, so she is not compensating in any way a shorter nap whih would supposedly disappear.

The short naps were first, actually she got off the normal schedule by sleeping in to 7.30-7.45 in the morning, I think to catch up on missed sleep due to NWs.

I'm beginning to think more and more that it's just a phase due to teething and I should just hang in there and pull through...

[Martini~]

Her short naps doesn't means that she is not ready for longer A honey. It frankly speaking means the opposite. If schedule with 2 naps of only 1h and 11h at night (or even less with nw) was fine for her at 10mo she is rather a lsn. And it's rather nothing exceptional to expect a short nap after 3:30 A for kids 11mo. LSNs are going towards 5h around 12mo and dropping a nap.
I get your point about not being able to have a longer nap but you don't need a 3h nap to survive a day. Mine only couple of times did 2h but usually was doing rather 1:30-1:45.

So...!
I would definitely go for a longer A in the morning probably to crack the EWU. I know you already go for around 4, , but just push until a specific set time if she copes with that. So if the nap is 10am, push it till 10:15/10:30 etc until she does 1-1.5h.
Than I would go for another longer A and short A till BT as probably second nap will be short. So routine as such:
5:30 -> which will become 6:30/7:00 soon hopefully
11:00 nap (step by step pushed from 10)
12:30 WU from nap
4:30 nap 2 of 20-30min
7/7:30 BT, if she refuse cut the second nap to 15/10min.

Wdyt?

[Ciuci]

Veri interesting and quite valid points! In the last 2 days she's skipped the pm nap, although she was obviouslt tired, rubbing eyes, yawning... but played in her cot for 50 min. So I'm quite confused and reconsidering everything. She's always been LSN, averagibg 1-1,5h less than the norm.

Unfortunately I can't afford to push the morning nap, as she will go to daycare in 2 months and there they have set-in-stone naps at 10.00 (fo those who still take 2 naps) and 1.00pm.

I will see how the next days progress and probably we will transition slowly to a short nap at 10 (when taken) and a longer one at 1/2pm depending on wake-up time. For now at least, she's back to her normal 6.30 am WU for a few days now so that gives me more stability in planning out the day schedule.

Thanks a lot for the support! Will get back if the issues still pop up.

[Ciuci]

Gah, sorry for the typos, writing from my phone

[Martini~]

Happy to hear wakeup is later.

Would the nursery agree to cap the morning nap? To 15-20min if needed? That could be an option.

Other idea I might have is pushing to one nap at 1pm and making BT at 7/8pm with a hope of 8am wakeup (if you find it acceptable). Many LOs even with 7/7:30 BT start one nap from 12:30am not 12am. If your LO is an lsn it shouldn't be a big stretch for her after 12mo.

[Ciuci]

Okay, so in the past couple of days she's resisted the pm nap. 1st nap happens after approx 4-4:15 hrs A time (even if I put her in bed earlier, she just plays until that time) and lasts about 1h. But 2nd nap... tried 3hrs A time, tried 4, doesn't matter. She ends up in fits of frustrated crying and she only manages a catnap (20-30 min), even with APOP of BF to get her asleep. She's obviously tired, rubbing eyes, and falling asleep at the breast, but the moment I put her in bed it's drama.

On the other hand, I checked again the schedule at the nursery. They are happy to adapt for the kids, but generally they have lunch at 11:30 and nap at 12:00/12:15. If she needs an earlier or later nap they will accommodate, but eventually she will join the group.

So, to recap:

Current routine:
WU & BF 6.30
E solids 9.00
S 10.30/11 - approx 1h
E solids 1.00 pm
S 3.30 pm - 20-30 min after much fighting to fall asleep
E BF/ solids 4.00 pm
E solids 6.00 pm
S 7.00/7.30 pm
1-3 night wakings, at random hours

And she will need to get to:
WU & BF 6.30
E solids 8.30
E solids 11.30
S 12.30 (2-3hrs)
E solids 4.00 pm
And the rest we will see

I'm thinking more and more that there will be a natural transition where the 1st nap will be pushed later and later due to longer A time and will eventually happen after lunch, and 2nd nap will become a catnap (already is one) later until it wil disappear.

Does this make sense?

My only problem is, she is now not compensating for lost sleep. She used to do 2x1h naps, now she is doing 1h + 20-30 min, waking up crying, cranky, obviously still tired. Nights she wakes up more often sometimes, even playing for half an hour, I think also due to OT. How could I improve her sleep? Earlier BT cannot be, since she wakes up from nap at 4pm, she's not tired earlier than 6.30-7 pm.

Wdyt?

[Martini~]

That's not surprising she is refusing the nap Hon. Another point suggesting 2:1 transition.
Firstly have you seen our 2:1 transition support thread? This change is tough and always include some OT. So it's great to just chat with other mammas to complain a bit:)

And now what can you do. You may go for capping morning nap to 45/30/15min - so whatever is a minimum she takes her afternoon nap. It's fine to have the morning nap early in the day as if you cap to 15-20min it's not stealing from night sleep. It's also fine to have this nap on the go so when doing errands or any school run. Than go for nap around 12/1pm and allow as much sleep as needed. Nap can be even 2h.
Another way is pushing first nap and APOPing second one in a pram, car seat or whatever else is needed. We did that with DS and first nap was around 11:45/12:00 and he still was doing a catnap here or there. And then he just dropped it.

Around 12mo DS was pretty consistently on 1 nap, with odd days was nap was short and he still took a catnap. He also goes to nursery. He has been there since being 5.5mo and I know that ladies there can be really flexible. At 10.5 he was eating lunch with other kids at 11:00 (he was fed as a first one as the youngest one) and put to sleep at 11:15, than 11:30 and so on. Kids were going down one by one up to 12. He usually woke around 1pm and was pretty first in the group but it wasn't a problem for them. Now he is going for a nap around 12 as the last one in the group:). So I wouldn't be so afraid of nursery.
And I am also a bit afraid Hon that you want have 2-3h naps too often if she is having only 1h naps right now:). Some kids just don't go them but they can cope on shorter naps and usually sleep longer at night.

[Ciuci]

Thanks for the encouragement and the ideas! 3 naps she's  certainly outgrown, and I don't mind 1 nap either as long as it's enough to restore her. But right now she sleeps 1:20 hrs during the day and an overall of 12 h over 24 h, which for her age is very low. And the OT shows in pm crankiness and broken nights

I guess it's just another phase to bear through until we find that sleep pot o'gold at the end of the rainbow

[Martini~]

Finger crossed Hon:)!

As I said, sometimes what helps the most is just a general chit chat. Feel free to join support threads here: there are two 2:1 transition threads - one in Naps and one in Sleeping for Toddlers. There is also pretty busy birth club for 9-12mo. I am sure ladies there will welcome you if you are interested:)!