WU time

[Emami]

Just a quick question about when to start the day from. Annabel seems to have a bit of a 5:30 habit (ick) but is definitely not ready to start the day. Until now I have been feeding and she settles back down quickly until 7:30/8. But I'm sure she doesn't need the milk and I don't want to reinforce the EW so the last few mornings I'm trying not to feed her, and have left her to it as she's not crying.  She does go back to sleep but it takes her a long time, whereas the feed is quick. For example, this morning she woke at 5:30 and went back to sleep at 6:35. Assuming she wakes around 7:30 to start the day should I just take that as WU time and do a normal A time, or reduce it a bit given that she was awake for a long time before her 'real' WU? Thanks.

[Kellyjs]

Yep, I'd start the day from when she wakes up in the morning, so your ideal wu time which is the later one. I'd count the others as NW's.

Do you want me to take a look at your easy to see if something needs to be tweaked to help with the early WU's? It might just be something small as she is going back to sleep. I too wouldn't feed if you can get away with it, but some do like to to get to a reasonable wu. I always thought it threw the milk feeds out for the day as DD wouldn't be hungry for her morning milk when she was supposed to wake up! Hth x

[Emami]

Thanks hun, I've never been able to get a consistent routine going with her so days could be affecting nights for sure. Today hasn't been great as most days she will give me one good nap, but I wouldn't say it's unusual either.
WU 8:00 (after resettling at 6:30)
Nap 10:45-12:20 (but only about an hour of sleep as she woke after 30mins and took another half hour to resettle)
Nap 3-4, but again woke after 30mins, took 20mins to resettle, and slept another 20).
Thinking I will do BT at 6:30 but no idea what works really as nap times look good if she had slept the whole time, but both of them were broken.

She is 6.5 months old and I'm going with a 2h45 A time but maybe she needs longer? She gives me no sleepy signs but is always ready to go down and goes independently. Often wakes after half an hour but it's also not unusual for her to do a good 2hrs without interruption. I do get frustrated by naps because we get to a decent WU most days (although usually after an early resettle) and should be well established on 2 naps. But it's rare that they are both good so we often end up with one long, one short, and I do EBT and keep my fingers crossed for a long night. She is impossible to get a third CN out of so I don't bother anymore even if both the others are rubbish.

I hope something jumps out because I would love to have more predictable days!  Temperament-wise she is an angel baby, which means she is delightful, but also hard to read because she's generally happy whatever's going on

[lily_layne]

I was coming on here to write the exact same post!!! I hope you don't mind me tagging along on yours. We have had a lot of 5:30/5:45 wake-ups lately (not really unreasonable as he's asleep by 6:30/7 but too early for me) and I have been feeding to get him back to sleep until 7:30/8. I haven't tried leaving him but I probably should just to see if he'll go back on his own - seeing that you've tried it gives me the courage to give it a shot. I really don't want an early feeding habit either.

WRT to A times on a morning like that I do tend to reduce it. We are working towards set naps (for my sanity more than anything) and I aim for the am nap around 9:30. On days when he does what he's supposed to ( ) and wakes around 7 he ends up with 2.5 h A time but when we get the 5:30 wu and then up for the day at 7:30 he still goes down well at 9:30 so only 2h A time. He does about the same length either way and I wake him if he's not up by 11:15. Naps were always messier and less predictable with DD (a lot like Annabel) but I did find that the morning nap could be fairly set and didn't need to shift a lot, regardless of WU.

[Kellyjs]

Hmmm I'm wondering if the A time could do with a little push as she is eventually going back to sleep but just not transitioning to the next sleep right away iykwim?

How do you feel she is? 30mins nap can be indicative of an OT nap, but that's not the case with all LO's. I'm afraid sleepy cues aren't really reliable anymore as you said. Is she getting grumpy or anything throughout the day?

As lily said too, it may be that the A time might need reducing slightly, however it never really worked for us to discourage the EW's. For us it was usually a signal that the nap needed moving later and/or teething. Set nap in the morning can help with that as lily said. Have you recently bumped the A time or have you been at that one for a while?

I too would do BT at 6.30. It's just so hard to tell when it's broken sleep isn't it? Does she go to sleep at BT ok? Any NW's other than the dreaded 5.30am EWU? I'm just ruling out teeth as a factor as why she's not transitioning well for her naps.

Sorry for all the extra questions..it just helps to get a fuller picture x

[Emami]

Hi Jill, feel free to follow I think Reid is higher sleep needs than Annabel, but hopefully something will help you too.  I'm pretty sure 2hrs A would be too short first thing but it would be nice to knock the EW on the head and know that we were starting out from a well-rested WU.

Kelly, I am wondering if 30mins for her is UT rather than OT. She wakes up fussing rather than crying and yes, it takes a while to get her back to sleep, whereas OT is usually more obvious that she still wants to be asleep.  Her A time for quite a while was 2h30 but maybe 3 weeks ago her naps got shorter so I pushed it up to more like 3h attempting to get to 2 naps. But then I got half hour wake ups every time so I thought I'd pushed too far and she was OT, and brought it back to 2h45. Now it's hit and miss whether her naps are long or short and I can't tell if she's OT or UT  Or just keeping me on my toes 

Set naps might be the way forward as I don't seem to be able to get the right A time, but that's new territory for me as I never went that way with DD1.  And hard to set a time when WU is anywhere between 5:30 and 8:00. Hopefully by not feeding and getting rid of the early WU we  can get more consistency.  She does occasionally STTN but usually has one NW that I have fed at. Until now it's been at random times, but now it's regularly 5:30 so I do think it's habit at this point.

BT is fine, and she went down at 6:20 tonight easily. It's the only time I feed to sleep, but if she's still awake at the end of her bottle I can put her down and leave and she's fine. She has her first two bottom teeth and no sign of any more yet so I don't think she's teething, but who really knows with teeth    She doesn't tend to get grumpy, or at least not related to being tired as far as I can tell. Whenever she's been a bit cranky it corresponded with teeth and/or a wonder week.  Her eyes get a bit red when she's too tired but the smiles stay

[lily_layne]

We had a 30 minute wake up and then resettle for the pm nap and then fighting sleep at BT. I think it was just a bit too late.

Set naps are new to me too. I never did them with DD but looking back I think they would have helped as I was constantly shifting A times trying to get a good pm nap. The routine I am aiming for is:
WU: 7
S: 9:30-11
S: 1:30-3
BT: 7
I know the first 2 A times seem short but I think the theory is that if they know there's a long stretch to BT, the afternoon nap will be longer.
Aside from the 5:30 waking (and today's blown nap) it works pretty well. He can't quite make it until 7 unless he has a longer pm nap so BT is usually 6:30.

30 minutes could be UT. I think that may have been the case with Reid today.

[Emami]

Hmm, I think if I try set naps they'd need to be later than yours, like 10 and 2:30. I need to do something to get to a later BT, but it's hard at the moment when i can't get 2 solid naps out of her.

Last night she STTN 6:30-5:30, so really it's a full night's sleep and I can't complain about an EW after 11hrs. She did go back to sleep 6:30-7:15, but I think I'm stuck with an EBT that's become normal BT and I need to shift her whole day. Not sure how to do that though. Today got messed up because of the preschool run. She did a decent morning nap, but pick up was at 3 and I got half an hour in the carrier.  Then she refused a later CN (and reminded me why I stopped trying for those... It's the only time she screams!). So she did nap 10-11:30, nap 2:30-3, refused CN so I did BT at 6 :-/ I do love EBT and it's worked for both my two as a catch up, but I don't want her in bed at 6 every night or I know I'll keep getting early starts.

[lily_layne]

I need to do something to get to a later BT, but it's hard at the moment when i can't get 2 solid naps out of her.

When DD was small, I remember another mom posting that she had success with picking the BT she wanted and doing whatever she could to keep LO awake until then regardless of nap length. After a few days, the LO began to nap longer. Maybe something like that would help?

I thought maybe we were getting into EBT as BT (but 6/6:30 was working wonderfully and it was great when I was on my own in evenings) but the last 2 nights, Reid has been tricky to get down which has pushed BT back to 7:15/7:30.

[Kellyjs]

Sorry Emma, I missed your post 

How's it going now? You can shift the day like we do with daylight saving and move it gradually forwards by 15mims every few days?
How to Adjust to Daylight Savings

I'm always really wary of pushing BT too late as OT ENW's were common in this house. OT before BT and too cause EMW, so it's hard to tell if it's OT or if the first nap needs pushing later. In your case though, you do seem to be getting a good amount of ONS so perhaps just shifting the day is all that's needed? I much prefer pushing the first A so at least they have chance to catch up during the day and OT naps are much easier to resettle.

[Emami]

It's messy 

This morning she woke at 6, which I know is an ok WU time but I struggle with starting that early when she doesn't nap well.  DH is home today and put her down at 8:50 while I was doing preschool drop off. I had asked him to do 9;00, but not sure that the 10mins really makes a difference as her naps seem to be interrupted all the time atm. She slept half an hour, was easily resettled, and then another half hour. She woke properly crying which isnt like her, but is fine now she's up. I just can't tell with her if she's UT or OT, or when to put her down again after a broken hour.

As far as shifting her day, there is no consistent point to start shifting it from yk? WU time varies so much and nap times and lengths vary so much, but somehow we keep ending up with a 6ish BT. And that's after I've already stretched her because she won't do a CN.

I'm trying to keep in mind that it could be a lot worse, she's generally pretty happy, her nights tend to be a decent length so it's not like she never sleeps, her EWs aren't even terrible as she usually goes back to sleep. But I'm fed up with the inconsistency and feeling unsure all the time.  If someone asks when's a good time to meet up or do something I don't know what to say because I never know when she'll be tired. We obviously do go out, but I find it quite stressful to make plans ahead of time, it's easier to just figure it out on the day depending what she's doing. And a 7-7 kind of day would work better for all of us, I'm just still a bit lost how to get there because even when she does wake after 7 and I think we're on track for a later BT it still goes pear shaped somewhere during the day!

[Kellyjs]

Have you tried w2s hun? It worked wonders here when DD was short napping. I'd do it at the 20mims mark and see of that makes a difference. It does take a while to get it right. How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

It is so hard to tell sometimes whether they're OT or UT. I would also double check there's no teeth on the way? The A time looks good, but has she shown signs she's used to a higher than average A time before?

I totally get it about the inconsistency. It drove me nuts too. I couldn't wait until she was on one nap so I knew what time she'd nap iykwim. Now though, it's probably grass is greener syndrome, I should've gone with the flow a lot more when DD was younger because at least there was always the next nap to try and get a good one in iykwim?

Fwiw I tried so hard to get DD on a 7-7 day, drove me nuts. In the end had to settle for a 6.30-6.30 day at best.

[lily_layne]

But I'm fed up with the inconsistency and feeling unsure all the time.

That's what drove me 'round the bend with DD. I'm a planner so it was really hard to take. That's why in hindsight, I  just should have gone for set naps. I think it would have gotten worse for a week but then would have sorted itself out. I made it harder on myself by constantly wishing for a better WU, longer naps, etc. I am more accepting (most days) with DS especially when he wants to start the day before 7.

[Emami]

Ok, so Thursday night we managed to get her to a 7:00 BT and she slept until 7 Friday morning  . But then did 2x 1hr naps on Friday, which is twice as nice as 30mins but still not long enough. That took us to 3pm, so she ended up with a 6pm BT again and was up at 5:30 this morning  She didn't go back to sleep but was really quiet until 6:15, I only knew she was awake because of my mama bat ears  So if I do a 3hr A time her nap would be 8:30, which seems really early. I think I'll see how she's doing and stretch her to 9 since I don't really know what her A time should be anyway, and she had some good quiet time before I got her up.

As this thread is going on it seems clearer to me that if I want a later WU then I need a later BT, so I think this is in the wrong place as it's a nap issue that's leading to all the EBTs, not so much that she's having EWs or NWs.  Honestly, a 6-5:30 day isn't even too bad since it's already light and summery at 5:30 (I will be a lot less ok with it if it continues to winter!). My issue with it is really the preschool runs at 9 and 3 (3 days a week). If she wakes before 6:30 it's too early for her to last until we get back in the morning and then the day's messed up before it's even started.  This wasn't a problem before because a) she wasn't waking early, and b) DH was home so I didn't have to bring Annabel with me, but he's just started a job in London so is out through the week now.

I haven't tried W2S because she's unpredictable! Maybe 20mins and 50mins would be a place to start since she quite often sleeps 30/60mins. But sometimes its 1hr10, occasionally 45.  I'd have to hover in her room the whole nap time for all the 'maybes.' It does seem like a while since she's done a long nap straight through though.  Sigh.

[lily_layne]

I only knew she was awake because of my mama bat ears   

I hate mama bat ears! I would be much happier if I didn't hear every twitch and roll!

Would you be willing to make things messier for a few days in the hopes things will then get better? Maybe you could try set naps and BT for a few days to teach her when to sleep? You may end up with some OT EWs if you push BT as close to 7 as you can, regardless of the day, but maybe those would be easier to resettle.

Vibes for a decent nap.

[Kellyjs]

Hiya Emma. Have you noticed that she seems to be sleeping around 13hrs in 24? 14hrs at best?

I think you might have to work to get that wu right as you said. 11hrs ONS is all some little bubbas can do consistently. Perhaps after that 12hrs you got the other day, she may have been able to cope with a slightly longer A? What did you do in the end? X

[Emami]

Have you noticed that she seems to be sleeping around 13hrs in 24? 14hrs at best?

No, I seriously haven't been able to figure her out at all. At different times I've thought she's HSN, ASN and LSN. Naps have tended to be a bit wonky more often than not, but she's gone through phases of 2h+ as well as good nights. Nights have tended to be 11-12hrs if straight through, or 13+ with a NF. She's rarely had short nights (phew!) So total sleep has varied quite a lot. AlI can think is that she's susceptible to developmental changes, teething, etc affecting sleep, and that stuff is fairly constant at this age so I'm basically throwing in the towel and rolling with it! I don't want to get too hung up on tweaking and whatnot, but it's useful to throw these questions out there and get some other opinions. Thanks both of you for being extra eyes and ideas.

I will definitely keep working towards getting BT closer to 7. Last night it was 6:50 and she woke at 6:40 this morning. She was straight to sleep for her nap at 9:45, woke after half an hour but settled herself and now it's 11:15. Keeping my fx for decent pm nap so I don't have to push too much for BT.

[Kellyjs]

That's great. Keeping fingers,crossed for you here x

[lily_layne]

AlI can think is that she's susceptible to developmental changes, teething, etc affecting sleep, and that stuff is fairly constant at this age so I'm basically throwing in the towel and rolling with it!

That's exactly how DD is! Every little bump affected her sleep in a big way, especially the pm nap. She also had her share of EWs but she was pretty good at playing quietly until I got her. Teething was a big cause of EWs for her. A set am nap ended up working really well for her as that was her most reliable nap. It was set at 9:45 at around Annabel's age and stayed that way for ages. I only moved it earlier if she woke very early or just needed to catch up.

Glad you got a decent WU and a good am nap. I hope the rest of your day went well.